Rise of the Warrior Cop: time to reconsider the militarization of policing?

[Pogo]

from the Wall Street Journal:

>> On Jan. 4 of last year, a local narcotics strike force conducted a raid on the Ogden, Utah, home of Matthew David Stewart at 8:40 p.m. The 12 officers were acting on a tip from Mr. Stewart's former girlfriend, who said that he was growing marijuana in his basement. Mr. Stewart awoke, naked, to the sound of a battering ram taking down his door. Thinking that he was being invaded by criminals, as he later claimed, he grabbed his 9-millimeter Beretta pistol.

The police say that they knocked and identified themselves, though Mr. Stewart and his neighbors said they heard no such announcement. Mr. Stewart fired 31 rounds, the police more than 250. Six of the officers were wounded, and Officer Jared Francom was killed. Mr. Stewart himself was shot twice before he was arrested. He was charged with several crimes, including the murder of Officer Francom.

... after losing a hearing last May on the legality of the search warrant, Mr. Stewart hanged himself in his jail cell.

The police tactics at issue in the Stewart case are no anomaly. Since the 1960s, in response to a range of perceived threats, law-enforcement agencies across the U.S., at every level of government, have been blurring the line between police officer and soldier. <<

I'm reminded of the squad of ABC agents who jumped a college girl at a grocery store because she bought a case of water. Wherever that thread is...

Thoughts?

 

[Survivalist]

from the Wall Street Journal:

>> On Jan. 4 of last year, a local narcotics strike force conducted a raid on the Ogden, Utah, home of Matthew David Stewart at 8:40 p.m. The 12 officers were acting on a tip from Mr. Stewart's former girlfriend, who said that he was growing marijuana in his basement. Mr. Stewart awoke, naked, to the sound of a battering ram taking down his door. Thinking that he was being invaded by criminals, as he later claimed, he grabbed his 9-millimeter Beretta pistol.

The police say that they knocked and identified themselves, though Mr. Stewart and his neighbors said they heard no such announcement. Mr. Stewart fired 31 rounds, the police more than 250. Six of the officers were wounded, and Officer Jared Francom was killed. Mr. Stewart himself was shot twice before he was arrested. He was charged with several crimes, including the murder of Officer Francom.

... after losing a hearing last May on the legality of the search warrant, Mr. Stewart hanged himself in his jail cell.

The police tactics at issue in the Stewart case are no anomaly. Since the 1960s, in response to a range of perceived threats, law-enforcement agencies across the U.S., at every level of government, have been blurring the line between police officer and soldier. <<

I'm reminded of the squad of ABC agents who jumped a college girl at a grocery store because she bought a case of water. Wherever that thread is...

Thoughts?

I think you are a victim's rights crybaby.

Reading the article further, Stewart had a large supply of MJ in his basement. For self-use so he said.

When someone knocks on your door at night, you ask who it is and try to look at who is at the other side of the door.

As I have the same gun as Mr. Stewart, he shot all the 15 rounds in his mag plus one in the chamber, then reloaded, and fired another full 15 round magazine. This is negligent overkill. Mr. Stewart was an evil psychopath. It was good that he hung himself in jail so no further resources were expended.

My only sympathies go the slain cop and his family.

 

[Pogo]

from the Wall Street Journal:

>> On Jan. 4 of last year, a local narcotics strike force conducted a raid on the Ogden, Utah, home of Matthew David Stewart at 8:40 p.m. The 12 officers were acting on a tip from Mr. Stewart's former girlfriend, who said that he was growing marijuana in his basement. Mr. Stewart awoke, naked, to the sound of a battering ram taking down his door. Thinking that he was being invaded by criminals, as he later claimed, he grabbed his 9-millimeter Beretta pistol.

The police say that they knocked and identified themselves, though Mr. Stewart and his neighbors said they heard no such announcement. Mr. Stewart fired 31 rounds, the police more than 250. Six of the officers were wounded, and Officer Jared Francom was killed. Mr. Stewart himself was shot twice before he was arrested. He was charged with several crimes, including the murder of Officer Francom.

... after losing a hearing last May on the legality of the search warrant, Mr. Stewart hanged himself in his jail cell.

The police tactics at issue in the Stewart case are no anomaly. Since the 1960s, in response to a range of perceived threats, law-enforcement agencies across the U.S., at every level of government, have been blurring the line between police officer and soldier. <<

I'm reminded of the squad of ABC agents who jumped a college girl at a grocery store because she bought a case of water. Wherever that thread is...

Thoughts?

I think you are a victim's rights crybaby.

Reading the article further, Stewart had a large supply of MJ in his basement. For self-use so he said.

When someone knocks on your door at night, you ask who it is and try to look at who is at the other side of the door.

As I have the same gun as Mr. Stewart, he shot all the 15 rounds in his mag plus one in the chamber, then reloaded, and fired another full 15 round magazine. This is negligent overkill. Mr. Stewart was an evil psychopath. It was good that he hung himself in jail so no further resources were expended.

My only sympathies go the slain cop and his family.

So you're actually suggesting that twelve military-style cops, acting on the word of one person, battering-ramming a citizen's door and barging in with guns, on the suspicion that he might be growing a piece of Nature -- is reasonable behaviour?

Thanks for identifying yourself. Always good to know who the fascist apologists are in advance.

To the actual point of the OP, from the article:
>> The war on drugs and, more recently, post-9/11 antiterrorism efforts have created a new figure on the U.S. scene: the warrior cop&#8212;armed to the teeth, ready to deal harshly with targeted wrongdoers, and a growing threat to familiar American liberties.

The acronym SWAT stands for Special Weapons and Tactics. Such police units are trained in methods similar to those used by the special forces in the military. They learn to break into homes with battering rams and to use incendiary devices called flashbang grenades, which are designed to blind and deafen anyone nearby. Their usual aim is to "clear" a building&#8212;that is, to remove any threats and distractions (including pets) and to subdue the occupants as quickly as possible.

...A number of federal agencies also now have their own SWAT teams, including the Fish & Wildlife Service, NASA and the Department of the Interior. In 2011, the Department of Education's SWAT team bungled a raid on a woman who was initially reported to be under investigation for not paying her student loans, though the agency later said she was suspected of defrauding the federal student loan program.

... In 2006, 38-year-old optometrist Sal Culosi was shot and killed by a Fairfax County, Va., SWAT officer. The investigation began when an undercover detective overheard Mr. Culosi wagering on college football games with some buddies at a bar. The department sent a SWAT team after Mr. Culosi, who had no prior criminal record or any history of violence. As the SWAT team descended, one officer fired a single bullet that pierced Mr. Culosi's heart. The police say that the shot was an accident. Mr. Culosi's family suspects the officer saw Mr. Culosi reaching for his cellphone and thought he had a gun.

... Americans have long been wary of using the military for domestic policing. Concerns about potential abuse date back to the creation of the Constitution, when the founders worried about standing armies and the intimidation of the people at large by an overzealous executive, who might choose to follow the unhappy precedents set by Europe's emperors and monarchs.

... For sheer absurdity, it is hard to beat the 2006 story about the Tibetan monks who had overstayed their visas while visiting America on a peace mission. In Iowa, the hapless holy men were apprehended by a SWAT team in full gear.

Unfortunately, the activities of aggressive, heavily armed SWAT units often result in needless bloodshed: Innocent bystanders have lost their lives and so, too, have police officers who were thought to be assailants and were fired on, as (allegedly) in the case of Matthew David Stewart. <<

Try reading the article next time.

 

[Survivalist]

from the Wall Street Journal:

>> On Jan. 4 of last year, a local narcotics strike force conducted a raid on the Ogden, Utah, home of Matthew David Stewart at 8:40 p.m. The 12 officers were acting on a tip from Mr. Stewart's former girlfriend, who said that he was growing marijuana in his basement. Mr. Stewart awoke, naked, to the sound of a battering ram taking down his door. Thinking that he was being invaded by criminals, as he later claimed, he grabbed his 9-millimeter Beretta pistol.

The police say that they knocked and identified themselves, though Mr. Stewart and his neighbors said they heard no such announcement. Mr. Stewart fired 31 rounds, the police more than 250. Six of the officers were wounded, and Officer Jared Francom was killed. Mr. Stewart himself was shot twice before he was arrested. He was charged with several crimes, including the murder of Officer Francom.

... after losing a hearing last May on the legality of the search warrant, Mr. Stewart hanged himself in his jail cell.

The police tactics at issue in the Stewart case are no anomaly. Since the 1960s, in response to a range of perceived threats, law-enforcement agencies across the U.S., at every level of government, have been blurring the line between police officer and soldier. <<

I'm reminded of the squad of ABC agents who jumped a college girl at a grocery store because she bought a case of water. Wherever that thread is...

Thoughts?

I think you are a victim's rights crybaby.

Reading the article further, Stewart had a large supply of MJ in his basement. For self-use so he said.

When someone knocks on your door at night, you ask who it is and try to look at who is at the other side of the door.

As I have the same gun as Mr. Stewart, he shot all the 15 rounds in his mag plus one in the chamber, then reloaded, and fired another full 15 round magazine. This is negligent overkill. Mr. Stewart was an evil psychopath. It was good that he hung himself in jail so no further resources were expended.

My only sympathies go the slain cop and his family.

So you're actually suggesting that twelve military-style cops, acting on the word of one person, battering-ramming a citizen's door and barging in with guns, on the suspicion that he might be growing a piece of Nature -- is reasonable behaviour?

Thanks for identifying yourself. Always good to know who the fascist apologists are in advance.

I think if you had more information, or at least have read between the lines, you would have wondered, "Why did they need an assault force with body armour and 12 guys to take down an innocent pot-head just minding his own business growing part of nature?"

Don't you think the girlfriend told the cops this guy was psycho or that he may have had a previous violent record? Like, duh.

It was a good thing they were wearing all their gear or there would have been more causualties. The cops shot Stewart only twice and showed great restraint on their part. He recovered enough to later hang himself.

 

[Pogo]

I think you are a victim's rights crybaby.

Reading the article further, Stewart had a large supply of MJ in his basement. For self-use so he said.

When someone knocks on your door at night, you ask who it is and try to look at who is at the other side of the door.

As I have the same gun as Mr. Stewart, he shot all the 15 rounds in his mag plus one in the chamber, then reloaded, and fired another full 15 round magazine. This is negligent overkill. Mr. Stewart was an evil psychopath. It was good that he hung himself in jail so no further resources were expended.

My only sympathies go the slain cop and his family.

So you're actually suggesting that twelve military-style cops, acting on the word of one person, battering-ramming a citizen's door and barging in with guns, on the suspicion that he might be growing a piece of Nature -- is reasonable behaviour?

Thanks for identifying yourself. Always good to know who the fascist apologists are in advance.

I think if you had more information, or at least have read between the lines, you would have wondered, "Why did they need an assault force with body armour and 12 guys to take down an innocent pot-head just minding his own business growing part of nature?"

Don't you think the girlfriend told the cops this guy was psycho or that he may have had a previous violent record? Like, duh.

It was a good thing they were wearing all their gear or there would have been more causualties. The cops shot Stewart only twice and showed great restraint on their part. He recovered enough to later hang himself.

I don't speculate things into the story I have no evidence for, so no I have no idea what the girlfriend's story was, because it's not in the article -- double duh.

What I do see is twelve guys in military garb with a battering ram acting on hearsay about a plant. What I see is Fish & Wildlife pulling a military raid on a woman suspected of owing a student loan. What I see is a gambling suspect shot dead by a military posse because he reached for a cell phone; what I see is a 20-year old college student swarmed by seven military types who jumped on her car and pulled guns because she bought a 12-pack of water.

What I see is a pattern. Not sure what it is you see.

 

[Survivalist]

So you're actually suggesting that twelve military-style cops, acting on the word of one person, battering-ramming a citizen's door and barging in with guns, on the suspicion that he might be growing a piece of Nature -- is reasonable behaviour?

Thanks for identifying yourself. Always good to know who the fascist apologists are in advance.

I think if you had more information, or at least have read between the lines, you would have wondered, "Why did they need an assault force with body armour and 12 guys to take down an innocent pot-head just minding his own business growing part of nature?"

Don't you think the girlfriend told the cops this guy was psycho or that he may have had a previous violent record? Like, duh.

It was a good thing they were wearing all their gear or there would have been more causualties. The cops shot Stewart only twice and showed great restraint on their part. He recovered enough to later hang himself.

I don't speculate things into the story I have no evidence for, so no I have no idea what the girlfriend's story was, because it's not in the article -- double duh.

What I do see is twelve guys in military garb with a battering ram acting on hearsay about a plant. What I see is Fish & Wildlife pulling a military raid on a woman suspected of owing a student loan. What I see is a gambling suspect shot dead by a military posse because he reached for a cell phone; what I see is a 20-year old college student swarmed by seven military types who jumped on her car and pulled guns because she bought a 12-pack of water.

What I see is a pattern. Not sure what it is you see.

What I see with SWAT teams is an intelligent response to a problem.

To fatten-up your thesis, you talk about a relative few other cases that had nothing to do with Ogdon UT where SWAT teams screwed up and over-reacted. That is just going to happen in a country of 300 million.

But these SWAT teams exsist in every large city and almost every county in the nation. They need these specialists to serve dangerous warrents and go after nuts like Stewart.

The problems with violent crime in the US over the last 50 years have caused the police to create these SWAT teams. If violent felons were punished properly, as they were back before this time, with chain gangs, hard labor, and speedy justice---with speedy executions for the worst---then there wouldn't need to be so many SWAT teams.

Liberals like yourself are the very reason why crime is so much worse now than it was 50 years ago. Take home message: Punish the felons.

 

[Pogo]

I think if you had more information, or at least have read between the lines, you would have wondered, "Why did they need an assault force with body armour and 12 guys to take down an innocent pot-head just minding his own business growing part of nature?"

Don't you think the girlfriend told the cops this guy was psycho or that he may have had a previous violent record? Like, duh.

It was a good thing they were wearing all their gear or there would have been more causualties. The cops shot Stewart only twice and showed great restraint on their part. He recovered enough to later hang himself.

I don't speculate things into the story I have no evidence for, so no I have no idea what the girlfriend's story was, because it's not in the article -- double duh.

What I do see is twelve guys in military garb with a battering ram acting on hearsay about a plant. What I see is Fish & Wildlife pulling a military raid on a woman suspected of owing a student loan. What I see is a gambling suspect shot dead by a military posse because he reached for a cell phone; what I see is a 20-year old college student swarmed by seven military types who jumped on her car and pulled guns because she bought a 12-pack of water.

What I see is a pattern. Not sure what it is you see.

What I see with SWAT teams is an intelligent response to a problem.

To fatten-up your thesis, you talk about a relative few other cases that had nothing to do with Ogdon UT where SWAT teams screwed up and over-reacted. That is just going to happen in a country of 300 million.

But these SWAT teams exsist in every large city and almost every county in the nation. They need these specialists to serve dangerous warrents and go after nuts like Stewart.

The problems with violent crime in the US over the last 50 years have caused the police to create these SWAT teams. If violent felons were punished properly, as they were back before this time, with chain gangs, hard labor, and speedy justice---with speedy executions for the worst---then there wouldn't need to be so many SWAT teams.

Liberals like yourself are the very reason why crime is so much worse now than it was 50 years ago. Take home message: Punish the felons.

First of all, how do you arrive at "liberal"? From the OP? Or that label I can't see because it must be on the back of my neck?

Second, what does a guy growing a plant, a woman suspected of not paying a student loan, a suspected gambler, a woman buying a 12-pack of water for a fundraiser, or a group of Tibetan monks have to do with "violent crime"?

And how do you arrive at Stewart being a "nut"? Did he have a label on the back of his neck too?
I must have missed that part of my own article. Please quote it.

Or is outright fabrication "just going to happen in a country of 300 million"?


"When they came for the 20-year-old college student buying water for a fundraiser, I said nothing because I was not a 20-year-old college student buying water for a fundraiser... and because 'that's just going to happen'" (that story's here btw)

 

[tinydancer]

In the thread with the silly title taken from the link called A dozen armed agents raid animal shelter to execute captive baby deer unfortunately many just started mocking the title because of the verb "execute".

What hit me like a ton of bricks wasn't just that there was this massive use of force ; There were nine DNR agents and four deputy sheriffs, and they were all armed to the teeth; Schulze said, &#8220;It was like a SWAT team.&#8221;

BUT grab this.....

The Department of Natural Resources began investigating after two anonymous calls reporting a baby deer at the no-kill shelter.

The warden drafted an affidavit for the search warrant, complete with aerial photos in which he described getting himself into a position where he was able to see the fawn going in and out of the barn.

Aerial mother trucking photos of a fawn at a no kill shelter?

No one from DNR could have just gone to the no kill shelter and just let them know that they were breaking the law and dealt with this in person, without doing a high tech over the top investigation and then descending like a swat team?

Holy freaking toledo!!!!

Armed Agents Raid Animal Shelter to Execute Baby Deer | Cop Block

All over this fawn?

 

[Survivalist]

I don't speculate things into the story I have no evidence for, so no I have no idea what the girlfriend's story was, because it's not in the article -- double duh.

What I do see is twelve guys in military garb with a battering ram acting on hearsay about a plant. What I see is Fish & Wildlife pulling a military raid on a woman suspected of owing a student loan. What I see is a gambling suspect shot dead by a military posse because he reached for a cell phone; what I see is a 20-year old college student swarmed by seven military types who jumped on her car and pulled guns because she bought a 12-pack of water.

What I see is a pattern. Not sure what it is you see.

What I see with SWAT teams is an intelligent response to a problem.

To fatten-up your thesis, you talk about a relative few other cases that had nothing to do with Ogdon UT where SWAT teams screwed up and over-reacted. That is just going to happen in a country of 300 million.

But these SWAT teams exsist in every large city and almost every county in the nation. They need these specialists to serve dangerous warrents and go after nuts like Stewart.

The problems with violent crime in the US over the last 50 years have caused the police to create these SWAT teams. If violent felons were punished properly, as they were back before this time, with chain gangs, hard labor, and speedy justice---with speedy executions for the worst---then there wouldn't need to be so many SWAT teams.

Liberals like yourself are the very reason why crime is so much worse now than it was 50 years ago. Take home message: Punish the felons.

First of all, how do you arrive at "liberal"? From the OP? Or that label I can't see because it must be on the back of my neck?

Second, what does a guy growing a plant, a woman suspected of not paying a student loan, a suspected gambler, a woman buying a 12-pack of water for a fundraiser, or a group of Tibetan monks have to do with "violent crime"?

And how do you arrive at Stewart being a "nut"? Did he have a label on the back of his neck too?
I must have missed that part of my own article. Please quote it.

Or is outright fabrication "just going to happen in a country of 300 million"?


"When they came for the 20-year-old college student buying water for a fundraiser, I said nothing because I was not a 20-year-old college student buying water for a fundraiser... and because 'that's just going to happen'" (that story's here btw)

You just post like a liberal, can't see your neck.

Your Stewart case is poor example of police use of excessive force
Here's some stuff:

OGDEN &#8212; Stacy Wilson took the stand today to describe her relationship with Matthew Stewart as boyfriend and girlfriend until the spring of 2011.

In that time he also talked about his anger toward the government.

She said Stewart would often say, "The government and the police are all corrupt ... and he really did not like cops. He would say that we are living in a police state."

Wilson said that Stewart&#8217;s feelings became more and more adamant as the relationship progressed. And, she testified, he said that if the police ever came to his home to arrest him, "that he would go out shooting. That he would not let them take him."

Wilson is the one who tipped off the Weber Narcotic strike force that Stewart was growing marijuana, beginning the investigation that led to the shootout on Jan. 4.

However, from prior testimony, Wilson never relayed Stewart&#8217;s threat to shoot it out with police, to the strike force.

Ex-girlfriend: Stewart said he would ?go out shooting?

(Her bad and stupidity not to warn the cops he was hostile.)

Each agent who was shot testified about the chaos and fear they experienced that night as they tried to escape and rescue fellow injured officers.

Officer Shawn Grogan was the first to be shot and was struck in the cheek; officer Kasey Burrell was shot in the head and abdomen; officer Jason Vanderwarf was struck in the hip; Sgt. Nate Hutchinson was hit in both arms, his rib and his side; officer Michael Rounkles was hit in the mouth and forearm. Ogden police officer Jared Francom was shot seven times and died from his injuries.

All but Rounkles were members of the strike force. All testified that Vanderwarf pounded on Stewart's door and identified them, yelling, "Police, warrant!" multiple times. They also all said Vanderwarf waited more than a reasonable amount of time before Francom was told to break in by ramming the door.

The officers testified that they split up into two groups, one heading downstairs and the other upstairs. The officers downstairs said they had just discovered the marijuana growing operation when they heard gunshots above. Grogan testified that he entered a small hallway near the kitchen, yelling "Police, search warrant" when he saw a hand holding a gun appear around the door.

He said the weapon fired almost immediately, striking him in the cheek. He stumbled into a bathroom and returned fire until his gun was empty. Officer Derek Draper, who was behind Grogan, began to fire. When the crossfire stopped for a moment, Draper and Grogan made their way outside.

Some officers went outside to aid Grogan and set up a perimeter. Others went to find the shooter. The officers who remained in the home and the ones who went to their aid all sustained injuries, including Rounkles &#8212; who was on patrol nearby and heard the call of an officer down &#8212; and Hutchinson, who ultimately tried to drag Burrell and Francom out of the home.

"It was an ambush &#8212; that's what it was &#8212; and (Stewart) took every opportunity in those confined spaces to cut these officers down unmercifully," prosecutor Christopher Shaw told the judge. "There was no attempt by the defendant to advise the officers of his presence in the bedroom. Instead, he commenced firing.
Matthew Stewart planned to 'go out shooting' if police came, ex-girlfriend testifies | Deseret News

Now based on all the evidence of all the cops, and all the empty shell casings and his guilt in the trial----any new thoughts???

 

[BasicHumanUnit]

What I see with SWAT teams is an intelligent response to a problem.

To fatten-up your thesis, you talk about a relative few other cases that had nothing to do with Ogdon UT where SWAT teams screwed up and over-reacted. That is just going to happen in a country of 300 million.

But these SWAT teams exsist in every large city and almost every county in the nation. They need these specialists to serve dangerous warrents and go after nuts like Stewart.

The problems with violent crime in the US over the last 50 years have caused the police to create these SWAT teams. If violent felons were punished properly, as they were back before this time, with chain gangs, hard labor, and speedy justice---with speedy executions for the worst---then there wouldn't need to be so many SWAT teams.

Liberals like yourself are the very reason why crime is so much worse now than it was 50 years ago. Take home message: Punish the felons.

First of all, how do you arrive at "liberal"? From the OP? Or that label I can't see because it must be on the back of my neck?

Second, what does a guy growing a plant, a woman suspected of not paying a student loan, a suspected gambler, a woman buying a 12-pack of water for a fundraiser, or a group of Tibetan monks have to do with "violent crime"?

And how do you arrive at Stewart being a "nut"? Did he have a label on the back of his neck too?
I must have missed that part of my own article. Please quote it.

Or is outright fabrication "just going to happen in a country of 300 million"?


"When they came for the 20-year-old college student buying water for a fundraiser, I said nothing because I was not a 20-year-old college student buying water for a fundraiser... and because 'that's just going to happen'" (that story's btw)

You just post like a liberal, can't see your neck.

Your Stewart case is poor example of police use of excessive force
Here's some stuff:

OGDEN &#8212; Stacy Wilson took the stand today to describe her relationship with Matthew Stewart as boyfriend and girlfriend until the spring of 2011.

In that time he also talked about his anger toward the government.

She said Stewart would often say, "The government and the police are all corrupt ... and he really did not like cops. He would say that we are living in a police state."

Wilson said that Stewart&#8217;s feelings became more and more adamant as the relationship progressed. And, she testified, he said that if the police ever came to his home to arrest him, "that he would go out shooting. That he would not let them take him."

Wilson is the one who tipped off the Weber Narcotic strike force that Stewart was growing marijuana, beginning the investigation that led to the shootout on Jan. 4.

However, from prior testimony, Wilson never relayed Stewart&#8217;s threat to shoot it out with police, to the strike force.


(Her bad and stupidity not to warn the cops he was hostile.)

Each agent who was shot testified about the chaos and fear they experienced that night as they tried to escape and rescue fellow injured officers.

Officer Shawn Grogan was the first to be shot and was struck in the cheek; officer Kasey Burrell was shot in the head and abdomen; officer Jason Vanderwarf was struck in the hip; Sgt. Nate Hutchinson was hit in both arms, his rib and his side; officer Michael Rounkles was hit in the mouth and forearm. Ogden police officer Jared Francom was shot seven times and died from his injuries.

All but Rounkles were members of the strike force. All testified that Vanderwarf pounded on Stewart's door and identified them, yelling, "Police, warrant!" multiple times. They also all said Vanderwarf waited more than a reasonable amount of time before Francom was told to break in by ramming the door.

The officers testified that they split up into two groups, one heading downstairs and the other upstairs. The officers downstairs said they had just discovered the marijuana growing operation when they heard gunshots above. Grogan testified that he entered a small hallway near the kitchen, yelling "Police, search warrant" when he saw a hand holding a gun appear around the door.

He said the weapon fired almost immediately, striking him in the cheek. He stumbled into a bathroom and returned fire until his gun was empty. Officer Derek Draper, who was behind Grogan, began to fire. When the crossfire stopped for a moment, Draper and Grogan made their way outside.

Some officers went outside to aid Grogan and set up a perimeter. Others went to find the shooter. The officers who remained in the home and the ones who went to their aid all sustained injuries, including Rounkles &#8212; who was on patrol nearby and heard the call of an officer down &#8212; and Hutchinson, who ultimately tried to drag Burrell and Francom out of the home.

"It was an ambush &#8212; that's what it was &#8212; and (Stewart) took every opportunity in those confined spaces to cut these officers down unmercifully," prosecutor Christopher Shaw told the judge. "There was no attempt by the defendant to advise the officers of his presence in the bedroom. Instead, he commenced firing.

Now based on all the evidence of all the cops, and all the empty shell casings and his guilt in the trial----any new thoughts???

"Evidence" of all the cops. You must be fuggin kidding. So when 4 cops testify that the woman raped in the back of the patrol car forced herself on them and took advantage of them, you would be convinced?

Here's one. Trials often don't portray what actually happened. Cops lie same as anyone else. Maybe more so.

What makes you think the GF didn't lie? What makes you think the cops didn't lie? Oh, cops NEVER lie. They are ALWAYS totally honest and upright.

And don't give me that LIBERAL crap. I'm as southern CONSERVATIVE as they come. Voted for Romney because he was lesser of the evils imo.

I'm ALL for swift justice and letting em swing from a rope but DUE PROCESS and the Constitution need to be followed.

When you start letting cops raid homes without a warrant and without liability or consequences, THEN investigate THEMSELVES, you're asking for abuse of authority. And that's EXACTLY what's happening. Over 80,000 raids last year. And likely over 100,000 in 2013. You think THAT is ok? Who actually terrorizes more innocent civilians? Cops or terrorists? HINT: It ain't terrorist.

Tell you what, After your home gets raided, and your child shot, and your pets killed and you have to pay the damages, you'll be singing a different tune.
Report back afterwards and let us know how YOU liked it.

As to the OP.
Couldn't agree more. Cops and Police departments are out of control.
The militarization is out of control. And it's not even making a dent in the drug problem.
We're going about it the wrong way. Rather than beating up and killing Americans, the government could stop it at the source if they really wanted to. Surprise. Maybe they don't. ever considered that?

We need to petition Congress to step in. What is needed is CIVILIAN oversight boards for EVERY Police department. Let those paying their salaries get involved in the Internal Affairs.
Internal Affairs investigating their own is like Holder investigating Obama.

It's absolute INSANITY to have Police Departments Investigating themselves.
Does it really have to be stated? Isn't that obvious?

 

[Quantum Windbag]

from the Wall Street Journal:

>> On Jan. 4 of last year, a local narcotics strike force conducted a raid on the Ogden, Utah, home of Matthew David Stewart at 8:40 p.m. The 12 officers were acting on a tip from Mr. Stewart's former girlfriend, who said that he was growing marijuana in his basement. Mr. Stewart awoke, naked, to the sound of a battering ram taking down his door. Thinking that he was being invaded by criminals, as he later claimed, he grabbed his 9-millimeter Beretta pistol.

The police say that they knocked and identified themselves, though Mr. Stewart and his neighbors said they heard no such announcement. Mr. Stewart fired 31 rounds, the police more than 250. Six of the officers were wounded, and Officer Jared Francom was killed. Mr. Stewart himself was shot twice before he was arrested. He was charged with several crimes, including the murder of Officer Francom.

... after losing a hearing last May on the legality of the search warrant, Mr. Stewart hanged himself in his jail cell.

The police tactics at issue in the Stewart case are no anomaly. Since the 1960s, in response to a range of perceived threats, law-enforcement agencies across the U.S., at every level of government, have been blurring the line between police officer and soldier. <<

I'm reminded of the squad of ABC agents who jumped a college girl at a grocery store because she bought a case of water. Wherever that thread is...

Thoughts?

I think you are a victim's rights crybaby.

Reading the article further, Stewart had a large supply of MJ in his basement. For self-use so he said.

When someone knocks on your door at night, you ask who it is and try to look at who is at the other side of the door.

As I have the same gun as Mr. Stewart, he shot all the 15 rounds in his mag plus one in the chamber, then reloaded, and fired another full 15 round magazine. This is negligent overkill. Mr. Stewart was an evil psychopath. It was good that he hung himself in jail so no further resources were expended.

My only sympathies go the slain cop and his family.

It is overkill to shoot more than one magazine in self defense? Was it also over kill for the police to fire 250 rounds in the invasion of this man's home? How many times did they have to reload?

 

[Quantum Windbag]

I think you are a victim's rights crybaby.

Reading the article further, Stewart had a large supply of MJ in his basement. For self-use so he said.

When someone knocks on your door at night, you ask who it is and try to look at who is at the other side of the door.

As I have the same gun as Mr. Stewart, he shot all the 15 rounds in his mag plus one in the chamber, then reloaded, and fired another full 15 round magazine. This is negligent overkill. Mr. Stewart was an evil psychopath. It was good that he hung himself in jail so no further resources were expended.

My only sympathies go the slain cop and his family.

So you're actually suggesting that twelve military-style cops, acting on the word of one person, battering-ramming a citizen's door and barging in with guns, on the suspicion that he might be growing a piece of Nature -- is reasonable behaviour?

Thanks for identifying yourself. Always good to know who the fascist apologists are in advance.

I think if you had more information, or at least have read between the lines, you would have wondered, "Why did they need an assault force with body armour and 12 guys to take down an innocent pot-head just minding his own business growing part of nature?"

Don't you think the girlfriend told the cops this guy was psycho or that he may have had a previous violent record? Like, duh.

It was a good thing they were wearing all their gear or there would have been more causualties. The cops shot Stewart only twice and showed great restraint on their part. He recovered enough to later hang himself.

I might think that, if I lived under a rck. Given the fact that I do not, I actually know that police do this because they like to dress up and play with neat toys.

 

[Quantum Windbag]

I think if you had more information, or at least have read between the lines, you would have wondered, "Why did they need an assault force with body armour and 12 guys to take down an innocent pot-head just minding his own business growing part of nature?"

Don't you think the girlfriend told the cops this guy was psycho or that he may have had a previous violent record? Like, duh.

It was a good thing they were wearing all their gear or there would have been more causualties. The cops shot Stewart only twice and showed great restraint on their part. He recovered enough to later hang himself.

I don't speculate things into the story I have no evidence for, so no I have no idea what the girlfriend's story was, because it's not in the article -- double duh.

What I do see is twelve guys in military garb with a battering ram acting on hearsay about a plant. What I see is Fish & Wildlife pulling a military raid on a woman suspected of owing a student loan. What I see is a gambling suspect shot dead by a military posse because he reached for a cell phone; what I see is a 20-year old college student swarmed by seven military types who jumped on her car and pulled guns because she bought a 12-pack of water.

What I see is a pattern. Not sure what it is you see.

What I see with SWAT teams is an intelligent response to a problem.

To fatten-up your thesis, you talk about a relative few other cases that had nothing to do with Ogdon UT where SWAT teams screwed up and over-reacted. That is just going to happen in a country of 300 million.

But these SWAT teams exsist in every large city and almost every county in the nation. They need these specialists to serve dangerous warrents and go after nuts like Stewart.

The problems with violent crime in the US over the last 50 years have caused the police to create these SWAT teams. If violent felons were punished properly, as they were back before this time, with chain gangs, hard labor, and speedy justice---with speedy executions for the worst---then there wouldn't need to be so many SWAT teams.

Liberals like yourself are the very reason why crime is so much worse now than it was 50 years ago. Take home message: Punish the felons.

What I see is a poster who is willing to overlook facts in order to justify stupidity.

 

[JoeB131]

[

I don't speculate things into the story I have no evidence for, so no I have no idea what the girlfriend's story was, because it's not in the article -- double duh.

What I do see is twelve guys in military garb with a battering ram acting on hearsay about a plant. What I see is Fish & Wildlife pulling a military raid on a woman suspected of owing a student loan. What I see is a gambling suspect shot dead by a military posse because he reached for a cell phone; what I see is a 20-year old college student swarmed by seven military types who jumped on her car and pulled guns because she bought a 12-pack of water.

What I see is a pattern. Not sure what it is you see.

What I kind of see is an arms race. The Gun Makers sell bigger and badder guns to the bad guys, the cops need to arm themselves with bigger and badder guns to compensate.

According to your own OP, this guy was able to get off 31 rounds vs. 250 fired by 12 cops. Now, I don't know what the magazine capacity on a 9mm Baretta is, but he had to reload at least twice. Yet all these rounds fired off, he wasn't killed.

He managed to wound/kill seven officers, while he was only hit twice himself. This wasn't some easy going hippy just growing some pot, this really does sound like a serious criminal.

 

[editec]

My thoughts?

The guyy fired 31 rounds while being fired upon (with 250 rounds by many cops) and he managed to ding 6 cops while NOT getting hit himself?!

My thoughts are this is the guy I'd have liked backing me up in a firefight.

 

[Lonestar_logic]

from the Wall Street Journal:

>> On Jan. 4 of last year, a local narcotics strike force conducted a raid on the Ogden, Utah, home of Matthew David Stewart at 8:40 p.m. The 12 officers were acting on a tip from Mr. Stewart's former girlfriend, who said that he was growing marijuana in his basement. Mr. Stewart awoke, naked, to the sound of a battering ram taking down his door. Thinking that he was being invaded by criminals, as he later claimed, he grabbed his 9-millimeter Beretta pistol.

The police say that they knocked and identified themselves, though Mr. Stewart and his neighbors said they heard no such announcement. Mr. Stewart fired 31 rounds, the police more than 250. Six of the officers were wounded, and Officer Jared Francom was killed. Mr. Stewart himself was shot twice before he was arrested. He was charged with several crimes, including the murder of Officer Francom.

... after losing a hearing last May on the legality of the search warrant, Mr. Stewart hanged himself in his jail cell.

The police tactics at issue in the Stewart case are no anomaly. Since the 1960s, in response to a range of perceived threats, law-enforcement agencies across the U.S., at every level of government, have been blurring the line between police officer and soldier. <<

I'm reminded of the squad of ABC agents who jumped a college girl at a grocery store because she bought a case of water. Wherever that thread is...

Thoughts?

31 rounds from a Berretta? Must have been a Px4 and which means he had to swap mags at least once. If not he had to swap mags three times.

Hearing indicates search was legal.

 

[Lonestar_logic]

I think you are a victim's rights crybaby.

Reading the article further, Stewart had a large supply of MJ in his basement. For self-use so he said.

When someone knocks on your door at night, you ask who it is and try to look at who is at the other side of the door.

As I have the same gun as Mr. Stewart, he shot all the 15 rounds in his mag plus one in the chamber, then reloaded, and fired another full 15 round magazine. This is negligent overkill. Mr. Stewart was an evil psychopath. It was good that he hung himself in jail so no further resources were expended.

My only sympathies go the slain cop and his family.

So you're actually suggesting that twelve military-style cops, acting on the word of one person, battering-ramming a citizen's door and barging in with guns, on the suspicion that he might be growing a piece of Nature -- is reasonable behaviour?

Thanks for identifying yourself. Always good to know who the fascist apologists are in advance.

I think if you had more information, or at least have read between the lines, you would have wondered, "Why did they need an assault force with body armour and 12 guys to take down an innocent pot-head just minding his own business growing part of nature?"

Don't you think the girlfriend told the cops this guy was psycho or that he may have had a previous violent record? Like, duh.

It was a good thing they were wearing all their gear or there would have been more causualties. The cops shot Stewart only twice and showed great restraint on their part. He recovered enough to later hang himself.

It's more likely the police had more information that just that of the girlfriend. I'm guessing he wasn't new to the police.

Stories like this always leave out key facts that don't fit they're narrative. They may have had a UC do a buy preceding the search, could have been a whole host of evidence that we haven't heard about.

Not often, if ever does a judge issue a warrant based on hearsay, especially from an ex, be it girlfriend, wife, husband etc.....

 

[Sallow]

I think if you had more information, or at least have read between the lines, you would have wondered, "Why did they need an assault force with body armour and 12 guys to take down an innocent pot-head just minding his own business growing part of nature?"

Don't you think the girlfriend told the cops this guy was psycho or that he may have had a previous violent record? Like, duh.

It was a good thing they were wearing all their gear or there would have been more causualties. The cops shot Stewart only twice and showed great restraint on their part. He recovered enough to later hang himself.

I don't speculate things into the story I have no evidence for, so no I have no idea what the girlfriend's story was, because it's not in the article -- double duh.

What I do see is twelve guys in military garb with a battering ram acting on hearsay about a plant. What I see is Fish & Wildlife pulling a military raid on a woman suspected of owing a student loan. What I see is a gambling suspect shot dead by a military posse because he reached for a cell phone; what I see is a 20-year old college student swarmed by seven military types who jumped on her car and pulled guns because she bought a 12-pack of water.

What I see is a pattern. Not sure what it is you see.

What I see with SWAT teams is an intelligent response to a problem.

To fatten-up your thesis, you talk about a relative few other cases that had nothing to do with Ogdon UT where SWAT teams screwed up and over-reacted. That is just going to happen in a country of 300 million.

But these SWAT teams exsist in every large city and almost every county in the nation. They need these specialists to serve dangerous warrents and go after nuts like Stewart.

The problems with violent crime in the US over the last 50 years have caused the police to create these SWAT teams. If violent felons were punished properly, as they were back before this time, with chain gangs, hard labor, and speedy justice---with speedy executions for the worst---then there wouldn't need to be so many SWAT teams.

Liberals like yourself are the very reason why crime is so much worse now than it was 50 years ago. Take home message: Punish the felons.

That's a load of crap.

Harsher punishments do not lead to more pliant convicts. It leads to hardened convicts.

When back on the outside, with no skills and a bad attitude, they wind up re-offending.

We don't need to be militarizing police and giving them "no knock" warrants.

We need to be re-thinking how we deal with people who get caught in the prison/crime cycle.

 

[Pogo]

So you're actually suggesting that twelve military-style cops, acting on the word of one person, battering-ramming a citizen's door and barging in with guns, on the suspicion that he might be growing a piece of Nature -- is reasonable behaviour?

Thanks for identifying yourself. Always good to know who the fascist apologists are in advance.

I think if you had more information, or at least have read between the lines, you would have wondered, "Why did they need an assault force with body armour and 12 guys to take down an innocent pot-head just minding his own business growing part of nature?"

Don't you think the girlfriend told the cops this guy was psycho or that he may have had a previous violent record? Like, duh.

It was a good thing they were wearing all their gear or there would have been more causualties. The cops shot Stewart only twice and showed great restraint on their part. He recovered enough to later hang himself.

It's more likely the police had more information that just that of the girlfriend. I'm guessing he wasn't new to the police.

Stories like this always leave out key facts that don't fit they're narrative. They may have had a UC do a buy preceding the search, could have been a whole host of evidence that we haven't heard about.

Not often, if ever does a judge issue a warrant based on hearsay, especially from an ex, be it girlfriend, wife, husband etc.....

Yeah, good points. We like to fill in the blanks but we don't know.

The point of the article really isn't this incident and getting lost in its details; it's the pattern of police militarization. Stewart was the lead story but we've heard several others. I'm not as concerned with this guy as with SWAT teams jumping Tibetan monks and college girls and everyday citizens for delinquent student loans, overstaying visas and buying water.

 

[Survivalist]

"Evidence" of all the cops. You must be fuggin kidding. So when 4 cops testify that the woman raped in the back of the patrol car forced herself on them and took advantage of them, you would be convinced?

Here's one. Trials often don't portray what actually happened. Cops lie same as anyone else. Maybe more so.

What makes you think the GF didn't lie? What makes you think the cops didn't lie? Oh, cops NEVER lie. They are ALWAYS totally honest and upright.

And don't give me that LIBERAL crap. I'm as southern CONSERVATIVE as they come. Voted for Romney because he was lesser of the evils imo.

I'm ALL for swift justice and letting em swing from a rope but DUE PROCESS and the Constitution need to be followed.

When you start letting cops raid homes without a warrant and without liability or consequences, THEN investigate THEMSELVES, you're asking for abuse of authority. And that's EXACTLY what's happening. Over 80,000 raids last year. And likely over 100,000 in 2013. You think THAT is ok? Who actually terrorizes more innocent civilians? Cops or terrorists? HINT: It ain't terrorist.

Tell you what, After your home gets raided, and your child shot, and your pets killed and you have to pay the damages, you'll be singing a different tune.
Report back afterwards and let us know how YOU liked it.

As to the OP.
Couldn't agree more. Cops and Police departments are out of control.
The militarization is out of control. And it's not even making a dent in the drug problem.
We're going about it the wrong way. Rather than beating up and killing Americans, the government could stop it at the source if they really wanted to. Surprise. Maybe they don't. ever considered that?

We need to petition Congress to step in. What is needed is CIVILIAN oversight boards for EVERY Police department. Let those paying their salaries get involved in the Internal Affairs.
Internal Affairs investigating their own is like Holder investigating Obama.

It's absolute INSANITY to have Police Departments Investigating themselves.
Does it really have to be stated? Isn't that obvious?

Being on the conservative side of things, most of the time, I don't like a large powerful government police force with jackbooted thugs anymore than you do.

If this paticualr Stewart case bothers you enough, get the transcripts of the trial. This was a local narcotics task force from that area---not the FBI or BATF or DEA.

As I said in another post, if they had laws that punished the felons properly, as they did over 50 years ago, then there wouldn't need to be so many SWAT-type teams.

This Stewart fellow was an ex-miltary drug dealer. He ambushed the cops. He wanted to kill as many cops as he could. There was a mountain of evidence to put the entire blame on Stewart. If any of the cops had lied, the forensic evidence would have found it.

If you want to make a dent in the drug problem, then anti-racketeering laws like RICO and IRS tax evasion laws must be used against any and all violent drug gang members.