Reshaping US aid to the Palestinians

[Coyote]

It is a specific subgroup engaging in a specific activity which in their view is repopulating ... lands they feel was promised to them (and which serves the political purpose of securing Area C for Israel).

Not at all different from Arab Palestinian descendants wishing to repopulate land which they feel was promised to them and which serves the political purpose of securing Area C and Israel "proper" for Arab Palestine.

The difference is that the international community tends to support the one while demonizing the other. It tends to see the Arab Palestinian descendants as having a Right to Return while Jewish descendants have no Right of Re-settlement. I think its inherent in your response.

What if we all saw both the Arab Palestinian descendants AND the Jewish descendants as equally having the Right to Return and Re-settle?

I wasn’t really speaking to the right or wrong of the settlers, only that it isn’t a perjorative to refer to them as settlers. What Arab Palestinians are returning to the West Bank Area C?

 

[P F Tinmore]

RE: Reshaping US aid to the Palestinians
※→ P F Tinmore, Sixties Fan, et al,

Contrary to popular belief there is a basic flaw here. "The Universal Declaration of Human Rights is not a treaty, so it does not directly create legal obligations for countries." While it is contained in the International Bill of Right (the UDHR, the ICCPR, the ICESCR) → even that did not go into force until 23 March 1976. That is a decade after the 1967 Six-Day War. For the all the various documents on "rights" of all categories, see the UN Human Rights Commission's list.

Your basic Human Rights Documents are:

• International Covenant on Civil and Political Rights (ICCPR) and
  
• International Covenant on Economic, Social and Cultural Rights (ICESCR).
  
• Convention on the Elimination of All Forms of Racial Discrimination 1965
  
• Convention on the Elimination of All Forms of Discrimination against Women 1979
  
• Convention Against Torture and Other Cruel, Inhuman or Degrading Treatment or Punishment 1984
  
• Convention on the Rights of the Child 1989
  
• Convention on the Rights of Persons with Disabilities 2006

The very best list of "Rights" I have ever seen outlined was published by the Austrailian Human Right Commission:

• Human Rights: Right by Right

The right to return does not depend on why they left. It is irrelevant. If they were forced out, studying abroad, on a business trip, or whatever, they have the right to return to their homes.

(COMMENT)

No one shall be arbitrarily deprived of the right to enter his own country.

That is different from:

Everyone has the right to leave any country, including his own, and to return to his country.

The first (ICCPR) is law and second (UDHR) is not. Do you see the difference?

This idea that the "Right of Return is "LAW" and places a binding obligation on Israel relative to the return of the refugees and descendants, is simply flawed. Although it has been repeated so much that people mistakenly believe that it is a law.

The law expresses the prohibition against refugees and descendants being "arbitrarily deprived of the right of return." The mere fact that they are sworn enemies of the Israelis is reason enough. It is why the Resolution says "Resolves that the refugees wishing to return to their homes and live at peace with their neighbors should be permitted to do so at the earliest practicable date," is sufficient cause to deprive the right.

Most Respectfully,
R

The distinction between "his own country" and "home" is also relevant.

Both of those refer to the place where they are from. It is territorial. The name and government may change but it is the same territory.

 

[Coyote]

Language -Arabic
Nation - Arabic
Legislation - Sharia.

Questions?

There are a hell of a lot of Arab speaking Christians.

Is there a constructive point anywhere in that post?
I answered You question directly, these are basic official facts of all of the Palestinian governments.
I fail to see how this insistence changes anything, enlighten me.

I find it interesting that she constantly refers to Arab Muslims. Not Palestinians.

I want to point out why I find the term Arab Muslims offensive when talking about Palestinians. It is a subtle and deliberate way of denying them their identity.

I find the term "Palestinian" offensive as well, it is a result of a deliberate attempt to erase Jewish history and identity. The correct term is "Arab- Israeli conflict".

Really? So the only way Jewish identity can be validated is by destroying Palestinian identity? Really? You can’t have both?

 

[rylah]

RE: Reshaping US aid to the Palestinians
※→ P F Tinmore, Sixties Fan, et al,

Contrary to popular belief there is a basic flaw here. "The Universal Declaration of Human Rights is not a treaty, so it does not directly create legal obligations for countries." While it is contained in the International Bill of Right (the UDHR, the ICCPR, the ICESCR) → even that did not go into force until 23 March 1976. That is a decade after the 1967 Six-Day War. For the all the various documents on "rights" of all categories, see the UN Human Rights Commission's list.

Your basic Human Rights Documents are:

• International Covenant on Civil and Political Rights (ICCPR) and
  
• International Covenant on Economic, Social and Cultural Rights (ICESCR).
  
• Convention on the Elimination of All Forms of Racial Discrimination 1965
  
• Convention on the Elimination of All Forms of Discrimination against Women 1979
  
• Convention Against Torture and Other Cruel, Inhuman or Degrading Treatment or Punishment 1984
  
• Convention on the Rights of the Child 1989
  
• Convention on the Rights of Persons with Disabilities 2006

The very best list of "Rights" I have ever seen outlined was published by the Austrailian Human Right Commission:

• Human Rights: Right by Right

The right to return does not depend on why they left. It is irrelevant. If they were forced out, studying abroad, on a business trip, or whatever, they have the right to return to their homes.

(COMMENT)

No one shall be arbitrarily deprived of the right to enter his own country.

That is different from:

Everyone has the right to leave any country, including his own, and to return to his country.

The first (ICCPR) is law and second (UDHR) is not. Do you see the difference?

This idea that the "Right of Return is "LAW" and places a binding obligation on Israel relative to the return of the refugees and descendants, is simply flawed. Although it has been repeated so much that people mistakenly believe that it is a law.

The law expresses the prohibition against refugees and descendants being "arbitrarily deprived of the right of return." The mere fact that they are sworn enemies of the Israelis is reason enough. It is why the Resolution says "Resolves that the refugees wishing to return to their homes and live at peace with their neighbors should be permitted to do so at the earliest practicable date," is sufficient cause to deprive the right.

Most Respectfully,
R

The law expresses the prohibition against refugees and descendants being "arbitrarily deprived of the right of return." The mere fact that they are sworn enemies of the Israelis is reason enough.

The reason that the Palestinians are so called sworn enemies of the Israelis is because they are not allowed to go back home.

Doesn't explain the systematic violence and Arab Pogroms against Jews during Ottoman rule.
Homes have nothing to do with it.

 

[P F Tinmore]

I want to point out why I find the term Arab Muslims offensive when talking about Palestinians. It is a subtle and deliberate way of denying them their identity.

The identity that is nothing but an intentional fabrication created in the middle of the 20th century for the purposes of propaganda -- that identity?
If this identity is so important, why did it not exist until a few decades ago?

The name may have changed but they are the same people.

 

[P F Tinmore]

The identity is pertinent to their survival. That is why it is so important.

The made up identity has NOTHING to do with their survival.

Considering that the fabricated identity is built around a genocidal hatred of Jews, it is actually detrimental to their survival.

Striving for recognition in the world has everything to do with survival.

A society that straps suicide vests on their children is interested in survival?
That's like running west looking for a sunrise.

 

[P F Tinmore]

No Reward for Terrorism: Australia Ends Aid to Palestinian Authority

The Palestinian Authority will no longer received direct financial aid from Australia because donations could increase the self-governing body’s ability to financially reward terrorist violence.

Foreign Minister Julie Bishop said Monday that funding to a World Bank’s trust fund was cut after she wrote to the Palestinian Authority in late May seeking assurance that Australian funding was not being handed directly to the families of deceased terrorists.

Palestinian Media Watch said the amount of money allocated by the PA for payments to terrorists jailed in Israel in 2017 rose 13 percent to $158 million — compared to $135 million in 2016.

During the same time frame, disbursements for family members of dead terrorists increased by 4 percent — to $197 million from $183 million.

Foreign Minister Julie Bishop said such payments are in conflict with Australian values and while she was confident no money already given had been misused the time had come to make a change.

Money to terrorists is a foreign concept.

 

[rylah]

There are a hell of a lot of Arab speaking Christians.

Is there a constructive point anywhere in that post?
I answered You question directly, these are basic official facts of all of the Palestinian governments.
I fail to see how this insistence changes anything, enlighten me.

I find it interesting that she constantly refers to Arab Muslims. Not Palestinians.

I want to point out why I find the term Arab Muslims offensive when talking about Palestinians. It is a subtle and deliberate way of denying them their identity.

I find the term "Palestinian" offensive as well, it is a result of a deliberate attempt to erase Jewish history and identity. The correct term is "Arab- Israeli conflict".

Really? So the only Jewish identity can be validated is by destroying Palestinian identity? Really? You can’t have both?

Jewish identity is filled with 3500 years of a unique civilization,
Palestinian identity is less than a 100 years.

One of them surely feels so in-confident...wonder who?

 

[Dogmaphobe]

. Mentally, the Jewish State is ******* twisted.

Genocidal antisemites ALWAYS think Jews wanting to live is twisted.

 

[Dogmaphobe]

The name may have changed but they are the same people.

Yes.

Arabs.

 

[rylah]

The identity is pertinent to their survival. That is why it is so important.

The made up identity has NOTHING to do with their survival.

Considering that the fabricated identity is built around a genocidal hatred of Jews, it is actually detrimental to their survival.

Striving for recognition in the world has everything to do with survival.

A society that straps suicide vests on their children is interested in survival?
That's like running west looking for a sunrise.

Suicide bombers don't use US aid?

 

[rylah]

No Reward for Terrorism: Australia Ends Aid to Palestinian Authority

The Palestinian Authority will no longer received direct financial aid from Australia because donations could increase the self-governing body’s ability to financially reward terrorist violence.

Foreign Minister Julie Bishop said Monday that funding to a World Bank’s trust fund was cut after she wrote to the Palestinian Authority in late May seeking assurance that Australian funding was not being handed directly to the families of deceased terrorists.

Palestinian Media Watch said the amount of money allocated by the PA for payments to terrorists jailed in Israel in 2017 rose 13 percent to $158 million — compared to $135 million in 2016.

During the same time frame, disbursements for family members of dead terrorists increased by 4 percent — to $197 million from $183 million.

Foreign Minister Julie Bishop said such payments are in conflict with Australian values and while she was confident no money already given had been misused the time had come to make a change.

Money to terrorists is a foreign concept.

Australia decides to disconnect from the Jihadis,
triggers total denial...but You know it still happened do You?

 

[Dogmaphobe]

Jewish identity is filled with 3500 years of a unique civilization,
Palestinian identity is less than a 100 years.

One of them surely feels so in-confident...wonder who?

Palestinian identity is such a recent phenomenon that I can remember a time in my very own lifetime when "Palestinians" did not exist, only Arabs and Jews.

The whole discussion is downright Orwellian as being driven by the terrorist propagandists here.

 

[AzogtheDefiler]

Apostasy is punishable by death in Islam. We don’t need another primitive mostly Muslim country.

 

[Shusha]

Jews are those that are imposing the conditions that lead to a people taking such drastic measures.

Nope. The Jewish people are imposing conditions which protect their own rights and the safety and security of the Jewish people. The Arab Palestinians have a TON of options of how to protect their own rights and guard the safety and security of their own people. Hey. Newsflash. Terrorist attacks are NOT the best use of their resources towards that goal. A peace treaty would go a long way, though.

 

[Shusha]

The name may have changed but they are the same people.

You have inadvertently latched on to the truth of it. They ARE the same people. They are (as they admit) the same people as Jordanians and as Syrians. They deliberately adopted a new name to differentiate themselves from others in order to gain additional political recognition.

That deliberate act has transformed, over time, into a legitimate separate nationalism. No harm, no foul. The Jewish people have also, over time, transformed into a legitimate separate nationalism. No harm, no foul. Its hypocrisy to acknowledge one and not the other.

 

[Sixties Fan]

It is a specific subgroup engaging in a specific activity which in their view is repopulating ... lands they feel was promised to them (and which serves the political purpose of securing Area C for Israel).

Not at all different from Arab Palestinian descendants wishing to repopulate land which they feel was promised to them and which serves the political purpose of securing Area C and Israel "proper" for Arab Palestine.

The difference is that the international community tends to support the one while demonizing the other. It tends to see the Arab Palestinian descendants as having a Right to Return while Jewish descendants have no Right of Re-settlement. I think its inherent in your response.

What if we all saw both the Arab Palestinian descendants AND the Jewish descendants as equally having the Right to Return and Re-settle?

I wasn’t really speaking to the right or wrong of the settlers, only that it isn’t a perjorative to refer to them as settlers. What Arab Palestinians are returning to the West Bank Area C?

Actually, the use of the word settlers is continuously used against the Jewish side as if they were committing some crime by settling on their own ancient homeland, or in this case in Judea and Samaria, resettling where All Jews were expelled from their homes and lands, mostly in 1948.

Take for example this article:

The blood of slain Israelis stains many hands

------
On your last paragraph the question truly needs to be Which Arab Palestinians were expelled from any and all of Judea, Samaria and the Jewish Quarter of Jerusalem from 1920 to 1948, or even from 1967 when Israel recovered those areas, that they would need to "return" to it?
Especially from Area C, as you pointed out.

 

[P F Tinmore]

Is there a constructive point anywhere in that post?
I answered You question directly, these are basic official facts of all of the Palestinian governments.
I fail to see how this insistence changes anything, enlighten me.

I find it interesting that she constantly refers to Arab Muslims. Not Palestinians.

I want to point out why I find the term Arab Muslims offensive when talking about Palestinians. It is a subtle and deliberate way of denying them their identity.

I find the term "Palestinian" offensive as well, it is a result of a deliberate attempt to erase Jewish history and identity. The correct term is "Arab- Israeli conflict".

Really? So the only Jewish identity can be validated is by destroying Palestinian identity? Really? You can’t have both?

Jewish identity is filled with 3500 years of a unique civilization,
Palestinian identity is less than a 100 years.

One of them surely feels so in-confident...wonder who?

So, Jews were the only people living there before then?

 

[P F Tinmore]

The name may have changed but they are the same people.

You have inadvertently latched on to the truth of it. They ARE the same people. They are (as they admit) the same people as Jordanians and as Syrians. They deliberately adopted a new name to differentiate themselves from others in order to gain additional political recognition.

That deliberate act has transformed, over time, into a legitimate separate nationalism. No harm, no foul. The Jewish people have also, over time, transformed into a legitimate separate nationalism. No harm, no foul. Its hypocrisy to acknowledge one and not the other.

Indeed, before 1924 they were all the same place. They were divided into separate states by foreign powers.

 

[P F Tinmore]

or in this case in Judea and Samaria, resettling where All Jews were expelled from their homes and lands, mostly in 1948.

Indeed, the creation of Israel fucked a lot of people including Jews. If not for the Zionist colonial project, they would still be living there.