Reparations???

[Marion Morrison]

View attachment 247558

Perhaps it's time to rid ourselves of a few government funded programs. Programs such as Affirmative Action and other things meant to supposedly make reparations to specific minority groups are pretty vague in my humble opinion. The blacks site that it's reparations for slavery and things that happened to violate their civil rights since that time. However today is not then and since then there have been a large number of new immigrants who have no justification to claim such reparations just because they happen to be from Africa and elsewhere.

In what way do the American people owe "reparations" or Affirmative Action to people who immigrated here after the Civil War, much less after the Civil Rights Acts of the 50's and 60's, just because a person has dark skin?

If these programs are meant as reparations and such then the person applying for said programs should have to prove that their families were citizens of the United States during those times.

Additionally if there are immigrants who have used these programs then they should be required to return said money to the United States with interest.

*****SMILE*****

Tell them all we're blackened.

 

[Slade3200]

Ok, thank you for recognizing that. Now you have to also recognize the fact that black family’s were held down for generations by our society and more importantly by our laws. When our system is responsible for holding back a race of people from receiving proper education or achieving wealth for generations and when you look at the after effects of what develops from that you can’t simply change the law and presume it is an even playing field. Do you understand why?

Nobody is holding anybody back but themselves. What happened in generations before you has little to no effect on you today.

My father grew up poor, and not by today's definition. He lived in a house the size of a three car garage with his six siblings. They had no indoor plumbing. When they had to use the bathroom, it was outside in the backyard.

They were on welfare which back then meant one of the kids would pull the red wagon five miles to the fire station where they loaded it up with fruits and vegetables. My father had to quit school in 9th grade to help support the family.

Yet my father nor uncles and aunts ever spent a day in jail. Most of the men fought in wars, and eventually learned trades and raised families. Nothing was passed down to them like most white families during that time, and if we get anything, we will be the first generation to do so.

People come here from other countries, particularly the middle-east where they grew up in real poverty, and within a couple of years, they own their own businesses. They find the American dream. Some even become wealthy.

So I don't buy this stuff of generations before. Your life starts the day you were born, not when your grandfather was born. You didn't live his life, you live yours and make the best of it.

You completely ignored my last statement and went on a rant about your family who was poor but not because of government suppression. Want to try again to address my post and stay on topic?

I believe I addressed your post point for point. If you wish to put the palms of your hands against your ears and sing aloud, I can't help you with that.

I pointed out that many whites didn't have opportunities just like many blacks did not. I also pointed out that anybody from my generation and beyond experienced none of this discrimination or oppression. I pointed out that my white family were all poor, and because of hard work, they achieved the American dream.

What else do you want?

If you were trying to make the point that poor whites didn’t have opportunities like poor blacks then you are missing the enormous factor of systemic oppression by law from our government. Oppressions that limited their earning potential and education potential for generations. Can you recognize the repercussions of that?

No I can not. Because your life starts when you were born and many blacks have found success since then. It doesn't matter to me what my father or grandfather went through in life. I was born in a country where even foreigners come here with no money and with hard work, become successful.

If I'm a failure today, it has nothing to do with my father or mother being a failure......or my grandparents. We have a political party that constantly gives people excuses for their failures, and blame it on other entities. Eventually people believe them; a party that promoted single-parent families which are directly related to poverty and crime.

You don't have to believe me. Take it from a black man that grew up during that time and became a huge success, Dr Walter E Williams.

If we put ourselves into the shoes of racists who seek to sabotage black upward mobility, we couldn't develop a more effective agenda than that followed by civil rights organizations, black politicians, academics, liberals and the news media. Let's look at it.

First, weaken the black family, but don't blame it on individual choices. You have to preach that today's weak black family is a legacy of slavery, Jim Crow and racism. The truth is that black female-headed households were just 18 percent of households in 1950, as opposed to about 68 percent today. In fact, from 1890 to 1940, the black marriage rate was slightly higher than that of whites. Even during slavery, when marriage was forbidden for blacks, most black children lived in biological two-parent families. In New York City, in 1925, 85 percent of black households were two-parent households. A study of 1880 family structure in Philadelphia shows that three-quarters of black families were two-parent households.

During the 1960s, devastating nonsense emerged, exemplified by a Johns Hopkins University sociology professor who argued, "It has yet to be shown that the absence of a father was directly responsible for any of the supposed deficiencies of broken homes." The real issue, he went on to say, "is not the lack of male presence but the lack of male income." That suggests marriage and fatherhood can be replaced by a welfare check.

Walter Williams: Black Self-Sabotage

It's a short read with a lot of information. I suggest you spend a minute or two and read it for yourself.

Individual choice and opportunity are exactly what we should promote I agree with you there. I’m not arguing against that. I’m trying to get you to recognize that which is right in front of your face. You’ve already admitted that poor children have a tougher battle than wealthy children and by the numbers will not achieve the same levels of education and wealth. You’ve dodged answering but I think you know as we all do that systemic discrimination through law in this country has caused tremendous damage to the black community as it restricted generations from accumulating property, wealth, and education. It’s 2+2, just put it together. Recognition goes a long way. When you avoid acknowledging that reality and pretend that history didn’t happen then your audience goes deaf to the rest of the things you say.

Get on the same page and then we can talk about solutions. I actually agree that welfare is broken and causing damage and dependency in the impoverished communities. I also think the idea of entitlements has had damaging effects. So as we discuss solutions I think you will find we have more in common than you think. But these people got screwed by our country. We all know it. We should all acknowledge it and stop pretending like nothing happened and it’s all good now.

 

[Marion Morrison]

Either way it's added to the debt

spending added to the debt.

we need to stop spending so damn much and "entitling" people to think they didn't earn.

Tax cuts add to the debt too my friend. Trump's did so MASSIVELY

Not as much as cash 4 clunkers and it doesn't take affordable cars away from people.

Next!

 

[Lesh]

Tax cuts add to the debt too my friend. Trump's did so MASSIVELY

Not as much as cash 4 clunkers and it doesn't take affordable cars away from people.

Cash for Clunkers cost a TRILLION and a half?

Are you stupidly claiming that?

Really?

 

[Slade3200]

These are the same people that told us we should not hold an entire group of people responsible for the actions of a few. They told us that profiling is a crime within itself. However that is a one-way street like with so many other liberal ideas.

Now they want us to payoff a group of mostly Democrat voters how? Should our federal government do it, the same federal government now over 20 trillion in debt? Should they send bills to only white people to pay for it? Or perhaps send the bill to the same people they want to pay for every one of their idiotic ideas--the wealthy.

You’re concerned about the debt huh? Good. Do you know the top three largest contributors to the debt? Are you wanting to cut any of those?

yep.

i'm not even going to look and see what they are. yep. cut 'em back.

we spend far too much money and when debt is due, we tax more. that can only go so far before everything falls in upon itself and i don't think we're too far from that.

The top 3 that make up more than 75% of our spending are social security, healthcare, and Military. Everything else is a sliver. The first two are mandatory spending that has been allocated by law. Military takes up more than half the discretionary spending budget which is easier to modify on a yearly basis.

Here is a great link that showcases where our money is going.

Federal Spending: Where Does the Money Go

 

[Marion Morrison]

Tax cuts add to the debt too my friend. Trump's did so MASSIVELY

Not as much as cash 4 clunkers and it doesn't take affordable cars away from people.

Cash for Clunkers cost a TRILLION and a half?

Are you stupidly claiming that?

Really?

What part of your colon are you pulling 1.5 trillion out of?

 

[Claudette]

Well I never owned slaves. I've never met anyone who owned slaves. All that did own slaves have been dead for a hundred years.

Reparations my ass.

So you don't think promoting businesses for low income folks is a good idea?

I don't think reparations for something that happened a hundred years ago is in order.

No one alive today owned, bought or made use of slaves.

Load of horse shit in my view.

 

[Lesh]

What part of your colon are you pulling 1.5 trillion out of?

That's the cost of Trump's "tax cuts" for the rich and corporations

By the way...Cash for Clunkers cost 3 billion and was completely voluntary.

No had their car taken away from them

But hey...claiming that 3 billion is the same as 1.5 trillion is really close... by Trumper standards...

 

[Lesh]

I don't think reparations for something that happened a hundred years ago is in order.

No one alive today owned, bought or made use of slaves.

Load of horse shit in my view.

That's the second time you "informed" us of that . We got it the first time.

What you didn't do was answer my question even though you quoted it.

Here...let me help you

So you don't think promoting businesses for low income folks is a good idea?

 

[Foxfyre]

View attachment 247558

Perhaps it's time to rid ourselves of a few government funded programs. Programs such as Affirmative Action and other things meant to supposedly make reparations to specific minority groups are pretty vague in my humble opinion. The blacks site that it's reparations for slavery and things that happened to violate their civil rights since that time. However today is not then and since then there have been a large number of new immigrants who have no justification to claim such reparations just because they happen to be from Africa and elsewhere.

In what way do the American people owe "reparations" or Affirmative Action to people who immigrated here after the Civil War, much less after the Civil Rights Acts of the 50's and 60's, just because a person has dark skin?

If these programs are meant as reparations and such then the person applying for said programs should have to prove that their families were citizens of the United States during those times.

Additionally if there are immigrants who have used these programs then they should be required to return said money to the United States with interest.

*****SMILE*****

Well for the sake of argument, who should get the reparations?

Descendants of slaves who have greatly benefited because some evil people dragged an ancestor over here? The last time I looked it up, there were a reported some 35,000 millionaires who happen to be black people in this country. Do they deserve reparations? How about the 40 or 50+ million other black Americans who are solidly middle class? Do they deserve reparations? How harmed is somebody who is four or five or ten generations or more down the line from their slave ancestor?

How about those who descended from the black Africans who captured black Africans and delivered them to the slave traders? Do they get reparations?

How about those who descended from black slave owners?

How about those who came here from other places and have no history of slavery in their families?

Nobody is saying that slavery was not a hateful, cruel, unjustifiable, indefensible practice even though it has existed throughout civilization for most of its history.

But to identify somebody who was harmed in any way by slavery in this country or anywhere else would be as impossible as identifying anybody else whose ancestors were mistreated, oppressed, tortured, impoverished, or otherwise disadvantaged by the bad acts of others. And probably few of us do not descend from at least somebody who suffered some of that.

We should learn from and become better by studying our history--the good and the bad--but paying reparations would be as stupid as would requiring people to pay those reparations who had no part in any of those crimes and in fact descended from the people who risked everything including their lives to oppose and correct the bad acts of previous generations.

 

[Lesh]

Well for the sake of argument, who should get the reparations?

For arguments sake (and honesty and accuracy)...what would "reparations" look like?

Since no candidates are talking about cash payments...please tell us what you think we're talking about?

 

[Foxfyre]

Well for the sake of argument, who should get the reparations?

For arguments sake (and honesty and accuracy)...what would "reparations" look like?

Since no candidates are talking about cash payments...please tell us what you think we're talking about?

Reparations do not have to be in the form of cash. Any benefit given to somebody to correct an injustice or wrong doing could be considered reparations.

What do YOU consider to be reparations? And how does the form of them in any way matter to the points in my post?

 

[Lesh]

Well for the sake of argument, who should get the reparations?

For arguments sake (and honesty and accuracy)...what would "reparations" look like?

Since no candidates are talking about cash payments...please tell us what you think we're talking about?

Reparations do not have to be in the form of cash. Any benefit given to somebody to correct an injustice or wrong doing could be considered reparations.

What do YOU consider to be reparations? And how does the form of them in any way matter to the points in my post?

So if those "reparations" were low interest loans or even grants to aspiring or new start up businesses..you're against that?

 

[Foxfyre]

Well for the sake of argument, who should get the reparations?

For arguments sake (and honesty and accuracy)...what would "reparations" look like?

Since no candidates are talking about cash payments...please tell us what you think we're talking about?

Reparations do not have to be in the form of cash. Any benefit given to somebody to correct an injustice or wrong doing could be considered reparations.

What do YOU consider to be reparations? And how does the form of them in any way matter to the points in my post?

So if those "reparations" were low interest loans or even grants to aspiring or new start up businesses..you're against that?

Yes unless you can explain to me how anybody living today is entitled to such as 'reparations' for anything.

I refer you again to my post #150 to which you completely ignored the argument I made that would be a valid answer to your question here too.

 

[Lesh]

Well for the sake of argument, who should get the reparations?

For arguments sake (and honesty and accuracy)...what would "reparations" look like?

Since no candidates are talking about cash payments...please tell us what you think we're talking about?

Reparations do not have to be in the form of cash. Any benefit given to somebody to correct an injustice or wrong doing could be considered reparations.

What do YOU consider to be reparations? And how does the form of them in any way matter to the points in my post?

So if those "reparations" were low interest loans or even grants to aspiring or new start up businesses..you're against that?

Yes unless you can explain to me how anybody living today is entitled to such as 'reparations' for anything.

I refer you again to my post #150 to which you completely ignored the argument I made that would be a valid answer to your question here too.

Well if you have ever tried to satisfy contract requirements calling for a certain (small) per centage of women and black owned businesses...you'd know that there are very few

You don't think that's a problem?

How do you get people to care about their environment? Ownership.

Help people get a stake in the system and they behave differently. Don't you see that as a worthwhile goal?

 

[Foxfyre]

Well for the sake of argument, who should get the reparations?

For arguments sake (and honesty and accuracy)...what would "reparations" look like?

Since no candidates are talking about cash payments...please tell us what you think we're talking about?

Reparations do not have to be in the form of cash. Any benefit given to somebody to correct an injustice or wrong doing could be considered reparations.

What do YOU consider to be reparations? And how does the form of them in any way matter to the points in my post?

So if those "reparations" were low interest loans or even grants to aspiring or new start up businesses..you're against that?

Yes unless you can explain to me how anybody living today is entitled to such as 'reparations' for anything.

I refer you again to my post #150 to which you completely ignored the argument I made that would be a valid answer to your question here too.

Well if you have ever tried to satisfy contract requirements calling for a certain (small) per centage of women and black owned businesses...you'd know that there are very few

You don't think that's a problem?

How do you get people to care about their environment? Ownership.

Help people get a stake in the system and they behave differently. Don't you see that as a worthwhile goal?

Have been there and done that. And whatever bad policy and obstacles exist has absolutely zero, nada, zilch to do with slavery that ended many generations ago.

You should be championing the current Administration though that is actively working to remove as much unnecessary red tape and obstacles to business, especially new business start ups in all demographics, as is reasonable to do.

 

[Lesh]

Have been there and done that.

I have no idea what you think that means but there are almost no low interest loans or grants available to ANY kinds of start up businesses...no less black ones

 

[Foxfyre]

Have been there and done that.

I have no idea what you think that means but there are almost no low interest loans or grants available to ANY kinds of start up businesses...no less black ones

That was often true in the Obama Administration. And a whole bunch of businesses, including many headed by African Americans, closed and/or scaled back including a lot of layoffs and busting of full time positions to part time ones.

All that is now in the process of being reversed. And I imagine if you qualify for a low interest loan now, you'll find there are plenty of them available. People who don't qualify and/or who have bad credit will have a much more difficult time getting one. As it should be.

And once more, this thread is about reparations. Could we please focus on that and discuss business regulation and opportunity on a thread more appropriate for that? What you are talking about has NOTHING to do with reparations.

 

[Damaged Eagle]

View attachment 247647

How about we try this....

Do you consider Affirmative Action and other programs targeting blacks, and other ethnic groups, that receive government funding meant as 'reparations' for past wrongs?

If not... Then all monies paid to Affirmative Action and other ethnic based programs (i.e. college scholarships, small business loans, etc,...) have to be repaid with interest.

If so... Then all monies that were paid to people who were not part of those past wrongs, namely new immigrants participating in those programs, just because they just happen to be a ethnic minority, needs to be repaid by those immigrants with interest and we'll stop all those programs now since they obviously haven't been tracked to see if that minority was deserving of "REPARATIONS" and we'll consider what "REPARATIONS" are required.

*****SMILE*****

I stopped reading halfway through your first paragraph. If you aren’t going to give me the respect of answering a question I’ve asked you multiple times then why should I give you the respect of answering your questions? How about we just act like respectable adults and have a straight conversation?! Give direct answers to direct questions. You answer mine and I answer yours!!! Novel idea I know but I think we can do it. So try again for a fourth time. Answer my question and I’ll then answer yours.

View attachment 247648

I've given you a direct answer.

You just don't like the response.

You have two choices.

Pick one.

*****SMILE*****

No you did not give a direct answer and I explained why, see quote below... I guess now I need to copy and paste my own statements. Stop running, man up and answer a question.

“No not good enough, you completely avoided answering my question for a third time. Which laws or programs SPECIFICALLY are you talking about. Just saying affirmative action is not an answer. How is affirmative action being used in a way that’s objectionable to you? It is much different than it was 30 years ago. There have been several modifications and SCOTUS rulings that have effected the law. So what specifically are you objecting to?”

So what you're saying is that Affirmative Action and other government funded programs based on ethnic background are not meant as "reparations" of past wrongs and can done away with because the Civil Rights Acts took care of any ethnic discrimination and we've never needed to fund any of those programs. That's fine by me.....

When can we expect repayment with interest because that funding was not required?

*****CHUCKLE*****

No that’s not what I’m saying... I’ve just been asking you a simple question which you keep running from. It’s obvious at this point that you can’t answer it. You don’t know what the hell you are talking about, you can’t justify the things you complain about, you can’t point to specifics, you haven’t a clue about how affirmative action is being used in today’s world. You are ignorant and only here to complain and provoke. Grow up, your posts are a joke

Then obviously what you're saying is that there's absolutely no need for "REPARATIONS" and also no need to fund Affirmative Action or any other progressive minority program any further because the Civil Rights Acts took care of ensuring everyone equal.

*****CHUCKLE*****

 

[Slade3200]

I stopped reading halfway through your first paragraph. If you aren’t going to give me the respect of answering a question I’ve asked you multiple times then why should I give you the respect of answering your questions? How about we just act like respectable adults and have a straight conversation?! Give direct answers to direct questions. You answer mine and I answer yours!!! Novel idea I know but I think we can do it. So try again for a fourth time. Answer my question and I’ll then answer yours.

View attachment 247648

I've given you a direct answer.

You just don't like the response.

You have two choices.

Pick one.

*****SMILE*****

No you did not give a direct answer and I explained why, see quote below... I guess now I need to copy and paste my own statements. Stop running, man up and answer a question.

“No not good enough, you completely avoided answering my question for a third time. Which laws or programs SPECIFICALLY are you talking about. Just saying affirmative action is not an answer. How is affirmative action being used in a way that’s objectionable to you? It is much different than it was 30 years ago. There have been several modifications and SCOTUS rulings that have effected the law. So what specifically are you objecting to?”

So what you're saying is that Affirmative Action and other government funded programs based on ethnic background are not meant as "reparations" of past wrongs and can done away with because the Civil Rights Acts took care of any ethnic discrimination and we've never needed to fund any of those programs. That's fine by me.....

When can we expect repayment with interest because that funding was not required?

*****CHUCKLE*****

No that’s not what I’m saying... I’ve just been asking you a simple question which you keep running from. It’s obvious at this point that you can’t answer it. You don’t know what the hell you are talking about, you can’t justify the things you complain about, you can’t point to specifics, you haven’t a clue about how affirmative action is being used in today’s world. You are ignorant and only here to complain and provoke. Grow up, your posts are a joke

View attachment 247710

Then obviously what you're saying is that there's absolutely no need for "REPARATIONS" and also no need to fund Affirmative Action or any other progressive minority program any further because the Civil Rights Acts took care of ensuring everyone equal.

*****CHUCKLE*****

Wrong again, you’re on a roll! The only thing I’m saying is that you are an idiot who keeps dodging direct questions. Regarding the subject at hand I haven’t made a statement or opinion, I’ve been asking the same question over and over which you obviously can’t answer.