Renewables you support-solar or wind.

[ScienceRocks]

I have no problem with nuclear, hydrothermal, geothermal...All good idea's.

 

[elektra]

Solar Panels cost is expensive, much more expensive than coal, why is that, the simple answer is because it takes much more energy and raw materials to produce Solar Panels. Using more money means it produces more waste, more pollution, its a simple fact that all the "studies" in the world can not eliminate.

Solar Panel Production must use energy produced from Coal and Fossil fuels, its a fact. Making Solar Panels increases fossil fuel use, period. Solar Panel production does not decrease fossil energy use. Somehow we must believe that using more fossil fuel somehow results in less pollution.

I do not care how many articles you cut and paste, they are all based on the same studies, hence the same opinion is repeated over and over. look at the source in the articles, its all the same. You act like your finding proof and facts when you just regurgitate the same propaganda.

Solar Panels take more money, more fossil energy to produce, hence the fact that they are creating more pollution.

Consider all these articles are based on "installed capacity", not actual power output, and the truth is the articles are extremely misleading.

 

[elektra]

Let's say for a second that the pollution within the manufacturing process was as bad as coal!(It's not) BUT to be fair you have to consider that once you're powering your home with solar that it doesn't put out pollution at that level over time(emissions x time) = less pollution then that of a coal plant doing the same job.

You also have to consider that solar is a infite resource that will be around for the next few billion years. Solar isn't perfect but will be around when coal is all gone and we will be better for it.

Solar Panels are manufactured from a finite fossil fuel, hence your being extremely misleading. Once fossil fuel is gone, it will be impossible to make Solar Panels as well as impossible to maintain the installed Solar Panels.

Simple facts must be ignored to "Believe" in Green Energy.

 

[ScienceRocks]

So lets say the panels only last two years. What mind blowing amazing amount of energy it must take to make these things IF they really do require the same amount of energy as 2 years of running your home on coal. Jesus.

 

[ScienceRocks]

Let's say for a second that the pollution within the manufacturing process was as bad as coal!(It's not) BUT to be fair you have to consider that once you're powering your home with solar that it doesn't put out pollution at that level over time(emissions x time) = less pollution then that of a coal plant doing the same job.

You also have to consider that solar is a infite resource that will be around for the next few billion years. Solar isn't perfect but will be around when coal is all gone and we will be better for it.

Solar Panels are manufactured from a finite fossil fuel, hence your being extremely misleading. Once fossil fuel is gone, it will be impossible to make Solar Panels as well as impossible to maintain the installed Solar Panels.

Simple facts must be ignored to "Believe" in Green Energy.

And what would you use to power civilization when that day comes?

 

[elektra]

Let's say for a second that the pollution within the manufacturing process was as bad as coal!(It's not) BUT to be fair you have to consider that once you're powering your home with solar that it doesn't put out pollution at that level over time(emissions x time) = less pollution then that of a coal plant doing the same job.

You also have to consider that solar is a infite resource that will be around for the next few billion years. Solar isn't perfect but will be around when coal is all gone and we will be better for it.

Solar Panels are manufactured from a finite fossil fuel, hence your being extremely misleading. Once fossil fuel is gone, it will be impossible to make Solar Panels as well as impossible to maintain the installed Solar Panels.

Simple facts must be ignored to "Believe" in Green Energy.

And what would you use to power civilization when that day comes?

When that day comes, the day Petroleum is gone, I will be long gone, chances are the human race will be long gone before Petroleum is gone.

That day is 1000's of years in the future. So your question is kind of nonsense.

A better question is why do you advocate using Fossil Fuel at an alarming rate to manufacture Solar Panels with a short, finite, life?

 

[Old Rocks]

Emissions from Photovoltaic Life Cycles
Vasilis M. Fthenakis,*†‡ Hyung Chul Kim,† and Erik Alsema§

PV Environmental Research Center, Brookhaven National Laboratory, Upton, New York, Center for Life Cycle Analysis, Columbia University, New York, New York, and Copernicus Institute of Sustainable Development, Utrecht University, Heidelberglaan 2, 3584 CS Utrecht, The Netherlands

Received for review July 17, 2007

Revised manuscript received December 19, 2007

Accepted January 4, 2008
Abstract:
Photovoltaic (PV) technologies have shown remarkable progress recently in terms of annual production capacity and life cycle environmental performances, which necessitate timely updates of environmental indicators. Based on PV production data of 2004–2006, this study presents the life-cycle greenhouse gas emissions, criteria pollutant emissions, and heavy metal emissions from four types of major commercial PV systems: multicrystalline silicon, monocrystalline silicon, ribbon silicon, and thin-film cadmium telluride. Life-cycle emissions were determined by employing average electricity mixtures in Europe and the United States during the materials and module production for each PV system. Among the current vintage of PV technologies, thin-film cadmium telluride (CdTe) PV emits the least amount of harmful air emissions as it requires the least amount of energy during the module production. However, the differences in the emissions between different PV technologies are very small in comparison to the emissions from conventional energy technologies that PV could displace. As a part of prospective analysis, the effect of PV breeder was investigated. Overall, all PV technologies generate far less life-cycle air emissions per GWh than conventional fossil-fuel-based electricity generation technologies. At least 89% of air emissions associated with electricity generation could be prevented if electricity from photovoltaics displaces electricity from the grid.


3 GHG and Criteria Pollutant Emissions


We estimate the emissions GHG, SO2, and NOx during the PV life cycles. Together with the heavy metal emissions assessed later in this paper, these emissions comprise the main hazards to the environment and human health from energy use and materials extraction during the PV life cycle. These emissions are normalized by the electricity generated during the life cycle of PV. The major parameters for the life cycle, i.e., lifetime electricity generation of a PV system, include conversion efficiency (E), solar insolation (I), performance ratio (PR), and lifetime (L). The total lifetime electricity generation (G) per m2 of PV module is calculated as follows: G = E × I × PR × L. We consistently use, for our own analysis, the Southern European average insolation of 1700 kWh/m2/yr, a performance ratio of 0.8, and a lifetime of 30 years.

Alsema and de Wild report that the GHG emissions of Si modules for the year 2004 are within the 30–45 g CO2-equiv/kWh range, with an EPBT of 1.7–2.7 years for a rooftop application under Southern European insolation of 1700 kWh/m2/yr and a performance ratio (PR) of 0.75 (8, 10). Their estimates are based on the electricity mixture for the current geographically specific production of Si (Figure 2, Case 1).

4 Heavy Metal Emissions





6 Discussion

Using data compiled from the original records of twelve PV manufacturers, we quantified the emissions from the life cycle of four major commercial photovoltaic technologies and showed that they are insignificant in comparison to the emissions that they replace when introduced in average European and U.S. grids. According to our analysis, replacing grid electricity with central PV systems presents significant environmental benefits, which for CdTe PV amounts to 89–98% reductions of GHG emissions, criteria pollutants, heavy metals, and radioactive species. For roof-top dispersed installations, such pollution reductions are expected to be even greater as the loads on the transmission and distribution networks are reduced, and part of the emissions related to the life cycle of these networks are avoided. It is interesting that emissions of heavy metals are greatly reduced even for the types of PV technologies that make direct use of related compounds. For example the emissions of Cd from the life cycle of CdTe PV are 90−300 times lower than those from coal power plants with optimally functioning particulate control devices. In fact, life-cycle Cd emissions are even lower in CdTe PV than in crystalline Si PV, because the former use less energy in their life cycle than the later. In general, thin-film photovoltaics require less energy in their manufacturing than crystalline Si photovoltaics, and this translates to lower emissions of heavy metals, SOx, NOx, PM, and CO2. In any case, emissions from any type of PV system are expected to be lower than those from conventional energy systems because PV does not require fuel to operate. PV technologies provide the benefits of significantly curbing air emissions harmful to human and ecological health. It is noted that the environmental profiles of photovoltaics are further improving as efficiencies and material utilization rates increase and this kind of analysis needs to be updated periodically. Also, future very large penetrations of PV would alter the grid composition and this has to be accounted for in future analyses.

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These articles are at best, inaccurate, first and foremost they assume that the solar panels last 20-30 years, which is reality, in practice, they do not, further all the calculations are based on "installed capacity", not on actual power produced, take this into consideration and the dirty fact is that Solar Panels are an extreme source of pollution during the manufacture of the panel.

Some panels in the field have lasted less than 2 years, the study is based on the classroom, not the reality.

10 Things to Know Before Going Solar - Solar Energy

8. How Long do Solar Panels Last

Generally speaking, a solar panel will last 30 years or more and lose some ½ percent (0.5%) conversion efficiency annually. Hosing the panels off a few times during the summer and keeping leaves off them in the fall is about the only maintenance required.

 

[Old Rocks]

How long do roof solar panels last? - Yahoo Answers

All thick film panels I've seen are either warrantied for 20 or 25 years.

However, there are no moving parts and so the only failure mechanisms that could come into play to cause them to fail would be physical damage or some sort of electro-migration effect. The electro-migration effect might take 100s of years to cause a problem.

However, by 20 or 25 years from now, there will have been advancements that would make a current generation panel the equivalent of an Edsel anyway. So I would expect that you would want to replace them even if they had not failed.

There is no "regular maintenance" required of a solar panel. (I don't considing brushing leaves or dust off the panels to be maintenance, in the sense that you need to change oil in your car, for example). Most inverters will have a coling fan and some sort of filter, which will probably require cleaning if not change occassionally.

I did a little more looking at what causes degradation in solar panels, since I know the cell itself should not degrade. This is what I found: Renewable Energy & Efficiency Technologies | Home Power Magazine...

PV warranties typically allow for 20 percent output degradation over the module’s 20- to 25-year warranty life. But measurements of many modules put into service in the 1980s show that it’s unusual to see even half that much degradation. Many of those earliest modules still perform to their original specifications. It is safe to say that modules carrying warranties of 20 years or more have a high probability of working well 30 years from now

 

[Old Rocks]

Solar is Future: How long will my photovoltaic system last?

How long will my photovoltaic system last?
Because solar systems have no moving parts, they very reliable and require little maintenance.
Solar modules come with a manufacturer’s warranty for a lifecycle of between 20 and 25 years. Depending on the quality, the installation can last up to 30 years. PV modules typically don’t “die” when they get old; rather their output begins to diminish. For example, after about 20 years, the output drops to about 80% of nominal. Modern inverters have a useful life of up to 20 years, with manufacturers now offering warranties of between five and ten years.

 

[Old Rocks]

30 year old PV still performing well;

Testing a Thirty-Year-Old Photovoltaic Module | GreenBuildingAdvisor.com

 

[mudwhistle]

Renewables you support-solar or wind. I support both

Neither.

Wind power kills eagles so I don't support that, and the Sun contributes to Global Warming so I can't support that.

Anything that kills, causes head injuries, or raises the temperature of the Earth a fraction of a degree should be banned.

 

[ScienceRocks]

Ban coal, natural gas and oil for energy use....


This is the only thing that make sense.

 

[ScienceRocks]

Renewables you support-solar or wind. I support both

Neither.

Wind power kills eagles so I don't support that, and the Sun contributes to Global Warming so I can't support that.

Anything that kills, causes head injuries, or raises the temperature of the Earth a fraction of a degree should be banned.

Coal, natural gas and oil kill a lot of a lot more

 

[elektra]

How long do roof solar panels last? - Yahoo Answers

All thick film panels I've seen are either warrantied for 20 or 25 years.

However, there are no moving parts and so the only failure mechanisms that could come into play to cause them to fail would be physical damage or some sort of electro-migration effect. The electro-migration effect might take 100s of years to cause a problem.

However, by 20 or 25 years from now, there will have been advancements that would make a current generation panel the equivalent of an Edsel anyway. So I would expect that you would want to replace them even if they had not failed.

There is no "regular maintenance" required of a solar panel. (I don't considing brushing leaves or dust off the panels to be maintenance, in the sense that you need to change oil in your car, for example). Most inverters will have a coling fan and some sort of filter, which will probably require cleaning if not change occassionally.

I did a little more looking at what causes degradation in solar panels, since I know the cell itself should not degrade. This is what I found: Renewable Energy & Efficiency Technologies | Home Power Magazine...

PV warranties typically allow for 20 percent output degradation over the module’s 20- to 25-year warranty life. But measurements of many modules put into service in the 1980s show that it’s unusual to see even half that much degradation. Many of those earliest modules still perform to their original specifications. It is safe to say that modules carrying warranties of 20 years or more have a high probability of working well 30 years from now

http://www.nytimes.com/2013/05/29/business/energy-environment/solar-powers-dark-side.html

LOS ANGELES — The solar panels covering a vast warehouse roof in the sun-soaked Inland Empire region east of Los Angeles were only two years into their expected 25-year life span when they began to fail.
Related


Coatings that protect the panels disintegrated while other defects caused two fires that took the system offline for two years, costing hundreds of thousands of dollars in lost revenues.

It was not an isolated incident. Worldwide, testing labs, developers, financiers and insurers are reporting similar problems and say the $77 billion solar industry is facing a quality crisis just as solar panels are on the verge of widespread adoption.

Old Rock, you are wrong.

 

[elektra]

Renewables you support-solar or wind. I support both

Neither.

Wind power kills eagles so I don't support that, and the Sun contributes to Global Warming so I can't support that.

Anything that kills, causes head injuries, or raises the temperature of the Earth a fraction of a degree should be banned.

Coal, natural gas and oil kill a lot of a lot more

So why do you advocate increasing production and use of Coal, Natural Gas and Oil to produce Solar Panels? An increase in using Oil to produce Solar Panels is an increase in all the negative effects of oil, which is now a direct cause of the Solar industries use of the Fossil Fuel they are supposedly able to replace.

Complete nonsense while ignoring facts

 

[elektra]

Ban coal, natural gas and oil for energy use....


This is the only thing that make sense.

Banning Coal, Natural Gas and Oil for energy use means you will have no Hydrogen to make Solar Panels.

Hydrogen gas is a precursor gas used in CVD reactors. Can not get around that fact.

So your proposal kills the manufacture of Solar Panels.

Too funny, I have to bite my tongue.

 

[HelenaHandbag]

Ban coal, natural gas and oil for energy use....


This is the only thing that make sense.

Ever made coke for steel, which is essential for building those windmills, without coal?

 

[kwc57]

I'm waiting for my own personal Stark Industries arc reactor.

 

[ScienceRocks]

How long do roof solar panels last? - Yahoo Answers

All thick film panels I've seen are either warrantied for 20 or 25 years.

However, there are no moving parts and so the only failure mechanisms that could come into play to cause them to fail would be physical damage or some sort of electro-migration effect. The electro-migration effect might take 100s of years to cause a problem.

However, by 20 or 25 years from now, there will have been advancements that would make a current generation panel the equivalent of an Edsel anyway. So I would expect that you would want to replace them even if they had not failed.

There is no "regular maintenance" required of a solar panel. (I don't considing brushing leaves or dust off the panels to be maintenance, in the sense that you need to change oil in your car, for example). Most inverters will have a coling fan and some sort of filter, which will probably require cleaning if not change occassionally.

I did a little more looking at what causes degradation in solar panels, since I know the cell itself should not degrade. This is what I found: Renewable Energy & Efficiency Technologies | Home Power Magazine...

PV warranties typically allow for 20 percent output degradation over the module’s 20- to 25-year warranty life. But measurements of many modules put into service in the 1980s show that it’s unusual to see even half that much degradation. Many of those earliest modules still perform to their original specifications. It is safe to say that modules carrying warranties of 20 years or more have a high probability of working well 30 years from now

Not bad for something that only fucks the planet once and makes it back in aces for 20+ years I wonder if these people have any clue on just how many tons a year of coal, and gallons of natural gas solar keeps us from burning. One of my reports I posted above shows that it has the pollution of silcon wafers. Don't like your computer???? Believe me that would pollute just as badly if there wasn't for the regulations we have in America. Oh no one has to break their back in working in that coal mine or dying of cancer from black lung

These people will scream and rage against regs but this is why we have them. Enjoy the clean air? Clean water? Thank your government.


http://www.ti.com/corp/docs/csr/news_recycling_silicon.shtml

Converting silicon wafers to solar panels

For more than 10 years, TI has been recycling scrap silicon wafers, keeping this material left over from the chipmaking process out of the waste stream.

TI not only rescues scrap silicon that is otherwise destined for the smelter or waste heap, but ensures that the silicon is put to good use, for example in solar panels.

TI's recycled wafers have produced enough solar panels to supply electricity year-round to approximately 1,600 homes. Use of solar panels has helped prevent an estimated 10,900 metric tons of carbon dioxide from being released into the atmosphere, the equivalent to planting half a million trees.

Paul Westbrook, TI's sustainable development manager, said TI recycled 95 percent of its waste in 2010, scrap silicon being one example.

 

[mudwhistle]

Renewables you support-solar or wind. I support both

Neither.

Wind power kills eagles so I don't support that, and the Sun contributes to Global Warming so I can't support that.

Anything that kills, causes head injuries, or raises the temperature of the Earth a fraction of a degree should be banned.

Coal, natural gas and oil kill a lot of a lot more

Where?

Prove it.