Renewables you support-solar or wind.

[Two Thumbs]

The one that can turn a profit w/o needing more of my tax money.

so neither

Not all profits can be measured in dollars and cents.

"I'm a die hard NY Yankees fan." < that was the dumbest thing I ever heard.

Congrats, you're #1

 

[flacaltenn]

You say that without a clue of what you're talking with. People make a profit off of solar all the time.

While one can make a profit off renewable sources, the jury is still out as to whether or not oil and natural gases are renewable sources and clearly oil and coal are more profitable than wind and solar if you are grid connected.

I voted both because I believe off grid solutions have their place, solar, wind, hydroelectric are all great things. As are nuclear, oil, gas, coal... more the better in my opinion, just so long as we are not poisoning our water, cutting down our forests etc.

Nailed it Mr. Brown.. I can't vote in a silly poll that ASSUMES that wind and solar can only be used ON GRID.. I'm for adding NEITHER in excess of 10% to the grid..

HOWEVER -- there are great applications for "free fuel" OFF GRID.. As in desalinization plants, making fuels of all sorts (including biofuel and hydrogen), or processing grains or food stores.. And that is the OPTIMAL engineering APPLICATION of these flaky unreliable renewables.

I would invest in an eyeblink for a hydrogen plant using OFF GRID solar and wind and storing energy in the produced fuel.. But as RELIABLE ALTERNATIVES?

They suck huge... You cannot write a contract for delivery of wind or solar power at a date and time certain.. No planning, no worse case design for grid reserve, just "hope". That's why it's still popular with the Hopey, Changey, Dopey contingient..

 

[Lumpy 1]

Solar panels can't be manufactured in the Unites States and show a profit at this time.

I suppose if you like solar you prefer manufacture in foreign countries and service jobs in the US.

 

[RKMBrown]

hydrogen is the future

You talking about fusion?

sorry RK have been away most of the day

one step at a time

I am mostly interested in hydrogen fuel cells

for electric cars at this point

Yeah that's what I meant by hydrogen is storage. It may be the future for cars but really the point is just that hydrogen is a clean substance to use for storage as the output is water. However if you are burning coal or oil to generate the electricity used to separate the hydrogen from water... well then it's not really the solution its just a storage solution. I think if we had a large excess of nuclear fission/fusion power we would then see a move to hydrogen as the way to convert the excess to a fuel for autos.

I'm not sure if hydrogen will be in the future for cars or not. We've become very adept at using gas. I suppose the government could force us if they wanted us to be less efficient than the countries operating on liquid fuels.

 

[RGR]

Renewables you support-solar or wind. I support both

I support methane. Power generation brought to humanity straight from the local landfill and dairy farm...about as renewable as it gets!

 

[Derideo_Te]

The one that can turn a profit w/o needing more of my tax money.

so neither

Oil and nuclear are both supported with your tax dollars.

 

[Derideo_Te]

You say that without a clue of what you're talking with. People make a profit off of solar all the time.

While one can make a profit off renewable sources, the jury is still out as to whether or not oil and natural gases are renewable sources and clearly oil and coal are more profitable than wind and solar if you are grid connected.

I voted both because I believe off grid solutions have their place, solar, wind, hydroelectric are all great things. As are nuclear, oil, gas, coal... more the better in my opinion, just so long as we are not poisoning our water, cutting down our forests etc.

No, it isn't!

 

[flacaltenn]

You say that without a clue of what you're talking with. People make a profit off of solar all the time.

While one can make a profit off renewable sources, the jury is still out as to whether or not oil and natural gases are renewable sources and clearly oil and coal are more profitable than wind and solar if you are grid connected.

I voted both because I believe off grid solutions have their place, solar, wind, hydroelectric are all great things. As are nuclear, oil, gas, coal... more the better in my opinion, just so long as we are not poisoning our water, cutting down our forests etc.

No, it isn't!

RGR just told you.. Natural Gas CAN BE a renewable resource.. To the extent we are willing to scavenge it.. OR we could bring it back from Titan, Jupiters moon with an entire atmos made of Methane..

It's part of the lore of the Church of Global Warming, that there is SOOO MUCH methane available in the Arctic permafrost, that should it be released --- it would ROAST the planet..

Would be a shame to let that fuel go to waste --- Drill, Baby Drill.. Before its' lost...

 

[Derideo_Te]

While one can make a profit off renewable sources, the jury is still out as to whether or not oil and natural gases are renewable sources and clearly oil and coal are more profitable than wind and solar if you are grid connected.

I voted both because I believe off grid solutions have their place, solar, wind, hydroelectric are all great things. As are nuclear, oil, gas, coal... more the better in my opinion, just so long as we are not poisoning our water, cutting down our forests etc.

No, it isn't!

RGR just told you.. Natural Gas CAN BE a renewable resource.. To the extent we are willing to scavenge it.. OR we could bring it back from Titan, Jupiters moon with an entire atmos made of Methane..

It's part of the lore of the Church of Global Warming, that there is SOOO MUCH methane available in the Arctic permafrost, that should it be released --- it would ROAST the planet..

Would be a shame to let that fuel go to waste --- Drill, Baby Drill.. Before its' lost...

Natural gas refers to fossil fuel gas. You are talking about methane which is natural but is different to what RKM was alleging.

 

[flacaltenn]

No, it isn't!

RGR just told you.. Natural Gas CAN BE a renewable resource.. To the extent we are willing to scavenge it.. OR we could bring it back from Titan, Jupiters moon with an entire atmos made of Methane..

It's part of the lore of the Church of Global Warming, that there is SOOO MUCH methane available in the Arctic permafrost, that should it be released --- it would ROAST the planet..

Would be a shame to let that fuel go to waste --- Drill, Baby Drill.. Before its' lost...

Natural gas refers to fossil fuel gas. You are talking about methane which is natural but is different to what RKM was alleging.

What IS natural gas --- Mr FossilFuel? It's cow farts and garbage dump gas... OR it's the atmos. of Titan OR the gaseous form of those pesky Arctic tundra methane calthrates that threaten to blow up the planet...

 

[ScienceRocks]

The one that can turn a profit w/o needing more of my tax money.

so neither

Not all profits can be measured in dollars and cents.

"I'm a die hard NY Yankees fan." < that was the dumbest thing I ever heard.

Congrats, you're #1

Benefits
1. renewables won't run out for the next billion years
2. People won't get sick or cancer from it.
3. No smog

 

[RKMBrown]

No, it isn't!

RGR just told you.. Natural Gas CAN BE a renewable resource.. To the extent we are willing to scavenge it.. OR we could bring it back from Titan, Jupiters moon with an entire atmos made of Methane..

It's part of the lore of the Church of Global Warming, that there is SOOO MUCH methane available in the Arctic permafrost, that should it be released --- it would ROAST the planet..

Would be a shame to let that fuel go to waste --- Drill, Baby Drill.. Before its' lost...

Natural gas refers to fossil fuel gas. You are talking about methane which is natural but is different to what RKM was alleging.

heh...

Abiogenic petroleum origin - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Within the mantle, carbon may exist as hydrocarbons—chiefly methane—and as elemental carbon, carbon dioxide, and carbonates.[12] The abiotic hypothesis is that the full suite of hydrocarbons found in petroleum can be generated in the mantle by abiogenic processes,[12] and these hydrocarbons can migrate out of the mantle into the crust until they escape to the surface or are trapped by impermeable strata, forming petroleum reservoirs.

Abiogenic hypotheses reject the supposition that certain molecules found within petroleum, known as biomarkers, are indicative of the biological origin of petroleum. They contend that these molecules mostly come from microbes feeding on petroleum in its upward migration through the crust, that some of them are found in meteorites, which have presumably never contacted living material, and that some can be generated abiogenically by plausible reactions in petroleum

Said microbes are the reason the oil slicks "disappeared" after the gulf spills.

It makes a helluva lot more sense to me that oil, natural gas are seeping up underground from heat and pressure at the same time that shale based oil & natural gases are being released from billions of years of dead bio mass.

I also find it interesting that it rains oil and/or liquid methane on Titan. I suppose it's because of some ancient biomass? let it rip? lol

 

[flacaltenn]

Not all profits can be measured in dollars and cents.

"I'm a die hard NY Yankees fan." < that was the dumbest thing I ever heard.

Congrats, you're #1

Benefits
1. renewables won't run out for the next billion years
2. People won't get sick or cancer from it.
3. No smog

Wind runs out REGUARLY. I need 120MW for my North Arkansas Coop Nexr Tuesday btween 10PM and 2AM... CAN U GUARANTEE DELIVERY? We all know the answer Matthew. Why are u ignoring this? Is it someone elses problem to figure out how to make your fantasy real?

Solar cant be guaranteed either. You want to pay for 2 generators for every watt of renewable you need online? Most of us arent that dogmatic or naive.

These are not alternatives.. Solar is a 6hr/day sometimes peaker with limited geographic range of installed efficiency. Wind is next to useless as a primary source, and problematic as a sporadic supplement..

Tell me how you are seeing these as a replacement for RELIABLE sources.

 

[percysunshine]

RGR just told you.. Natural Gas CAN BE a renewable resource.. To the extent we are willing to scavenge it.. OR we could bring it back from Titan, Jupiters moon with an entire atmos made of Methane..

It's part of the lore of the Church of Global Warming, that there is SOOO MUCH methane available in the Arctic permafrost, that should it be released --- it would ROAST the planet..

Would be a shame to let that fuel go to waste --- Drill, Baby Drill.. Before its' lost...

That picture is hilarious.

 

[Old Rocks]

While one can make a profit off renewable sources, the jury is still out as to whether or not oil and natural gases are renewable sources and clearly oil and coal are more profitable than wind and solar if you are grid connected.

I voted both because I believe off grid solutions have their place, solar, wind, hydroelectric are all great things. As are nuclear, oil, gas, coal... more the better in my opinion, just so long as we are not poisoning our water, cutting down our forests etc.

No, it isn't!

RGR just told you.. Natural Gas CAN BE a renewable resource.. To the extent we are willing to scavenge it.. OR we could bring it back from Titan, Jupiters moon with an entire atmos made of Methane..

It's part of the lore of the Church of Global Warming, that there is SOOO MUCH methane available in the Arctic permafrost, that should it be released --- it would ROAST the planet..

Would be a shame to let that fuel go to waste --- Drill, Baby Drill.. Before its' lost...

Actually, there are a number of scientists already trying to figure a way to harvest the clathrate methane. Unfortunetly, that does not look doable at present. But you are correct, we would be better off harvesting that methane and burning it than seeing go into the atmosphere. On a time scale of a decade, methane is over 100 times as effective greenhouse gas as CO2.

 

[Old Rocks]

"I'm a die hard NY Yankees fan." < that was the dumbest thing I ever heard.

Congrats, you're #1

Benefits
1. renewables won't run out for the next billion years
2. People won't get sick or cancer from it.
3. No smog

Wind runs out REGUARLY. I need 120MW for my North Arkansas Coop Nexr Tuesday btween 10PM and 2AM... CAN U GUARANTEE DELIVERY? We all know the answer Matthew. Why are u ignoring this? Is it someone elses problem to figure out how to make your fantasy real?

Solar cant be guaranteed either. You want to pay for 2 generators for every watt of renewable you need online? Most of us arent that dogmatic or naive.

These are not alternatives.. Solar is a 6hr/day sometimes peaker with limited geographic range of installed efficiency. Wind is next to useless as a primary source, and problematic as a sporadic supplement..

Tell me how you are seeing these as a replacement for RELIABLE sources.

Yes, we do know the answer. If we have a national grid including solar, wind, hydro, geothermal, and nuclear, the answer is yes. And, for the next three decades, it will also include natural gas.

But if we listen to the yokels screaming 'it can't be done' at the tops of their voices, no, we will not be able to gaurentee the delivery of the energy this nation needs.

 

[flacaltenn]

Benefits
1. renewables won't run out for the next billion years
2. People won't get sick or cancer from it.
3. No smog

Wind runs out REGUARLY. I need 120MW for my North Arkansas Coop Nexr Tuesday btween 10PM and 2AM... CAN U GUARANTEE DELIVERY? We all know the answer Matthew. Why are u ignoring this? Is it someone elses problem to figure out how to make your fantasy real?

Solar cant be guaranteed either. You want to pay for 2 generators for every watt of renewable you need online? Most of us arent that dogmatic or naive.

These are not alternatives.. Solar is a 6hr/day sometimes peaker with limited geographic range of installed efficiency. Wind is next to useless as a primary source, and problematic as a sporadic supplement..

Tell me how you are seeing these as a replacement for RELIABLE sources.

Yes, we do know the answer. If we have a national grid including solar, wind, hydro, geothermal, and nuclear, the answer is yes. And, for the next three decades, it will also include natural gas.

But if we listen to the yokels screaming 'it can't be done' at the tops of their voices, no, we will not be able to gaurentee the delivery of the energy this nation needs.

Don't think you answered my question.. I NEED 120MW of wind power delivered Tuesday Night between 10PM and 2AM.. Can you deliver it? If not -- you don't have a product in the energy marketplace.. Because the North Arkansas Power Coop needs to CONTRACT it's energy IN ADVANCE before the neighbors line up all the better power deals. That's the real world. We do not run a country this developed and this large on MAYBEs.

That and a NATIONAL grid does not guarantee delivery from one end to the other. Detroit WILL NEVER recieve solar power at 11PM. And it's not likely to recieve any at any other hour of day... The losses in transmission are just too great...

 

[RKMBrown]

Wind runs out REGUARLY. I need 120MW for my North Arkansas Coop Nexr Tuesday btween 10PM and 2AM... CAN U GUARANTEE DELIVERY? We all know the answer Matthew. Why are u ignoring this? Is it someone elses problem to figure out how to make your fantasy real?

Solar cant be guaranteed either. You want to pay for 2 generators for every watt of renewable you need online? Most of us arent that dogmatic or naive.

These are not alternatives.. Solar is a 6hr/day sometimes peaker with limited geographic range of installed efficiency. Wind is next to useless as a primary source, and problematic as a sporadic supplement..

Tell me how you are seeing these as a replacement for RELIABLE sources.

Yes, we do know the answer. If we have a national grid including solar, wind, hydro, geothermal, and nuclear, the answer is yes. And, for the next three decades, it will also include natural gas.

But if we listen to the yokels screaming 'it can't be done' at the tops of their voices, no, we will not be able to gaurentee the delivery of the energy this nation needs.

Don't think you answered my question.. I NEED 120MW of wind power delivered Tuesday Night between 10PM and 2AM.. Can you deliver it? If not -- you don't have an energy marketplace.. Because the North Arkansas Power Coop needs to CONTRACT it's energy IN ADVANCE before the neighbors line up all the better power deals. That's the real world. We do not run a country this developed and this large on MAYBEs.

That and a NATIONAL grid does not guarantee delivery from one end to the other. Detroit WILL NEVER recieve solar power at 11PM. And it's not likely to recieve any at any other hour of day... The losses in transmission are just too great...

120 mega watt hours in 4hrs?

Dude that's a lot of power. You use more power in an hour than I would use in two years.

You are using like 15% of the entire output of a typical coal power plant for each of the hours you are operating.

 

[flacaltenn]

No, it isn't!

RGR just told you.. Natural Gas CAN BE a renewable resource.. To the extent we are willing to scavenge it.. OR we could bring it back from Titan, Jupiters moon with an entire atmos made of Methane..

It's part of the lore of the Church of Global Warming, that there is SOOO MUCH methane available in the Arctic permafrost, that should it be released --- it would ROAST the planet..

Would be a shame to let that fuel go to waste --- Drill, Baby Drill.. Before its' lost...

Actually, there are a number of scientists already trying to figure a way to harvest the clathrate methane. Unfortunetly, that does not look doable at present. But you are correct, we would be better off harvesting that methane and burning it than seeing go into the atmosphere. On a time scale of a decade, methane is over 100 times as effective greenhouse gas as CO2.

Don't tell me what's "doable" Scotty.. Now you get back to Engineering and make it work.. I want Calthrates mined and thawed before the Romulans discover we're taking them..

((Isnt that how progressives think technology advancement works?))

 

[flacaltenn]

Yes, we do know the answer. If we have a national grid including solar, wind, hydro, geothermal, and nuclear, the answer is yes. And, for the next three decades, it will also include natural gas.

But if we listen to the yokels screaming 'it can't be done' at the tops of their voices, no, we will not be able to gaurentee the delivery of the energy this nation needs.

Don't think you answered my question.. I NEED 120MW of wind power delivered Tuesday Night between 10PM and 2AM.. Can you deliver it? If not -- you don't have an energy marketplace.. Because the North Arkansas Power Coop needs to CONTRACT it's energy IN ADVANCE before the neighbors line up all the better power deals. That's the real world. We do not run a country this developed and this large on MAYBEs.

That and a NATIONAL grid does not guarantee delivery from one end to the other. Detroit WILL NEVER recieve solar power at 11PM. And it's not likely to recieve any at any other hour of day... The losses in transmission are just too great...

120 mega watt hours in 4hrs?

Dude that's a lot of power. You use more power in an hour than I would use in two years.

You are using like 15% of the entire output of a typical coal power plant for each of the hours you are operating.

Oh its not for me.. It's for the good customers at the N. Ark. Electric Coop region..

Lots of chicken plucking factories up there in the Northern Arkansas Electric Coop area.. (I made that part up).. But 120MW is just enough to keep about 120,000 homes running for that period of time.. Unless I've screwed up the math.. (not bloody likely)

That's how electrical demand contracts are written. They contract for a large REGION for a specified delivery date, time and terms.. ((Except in whacko places like California)).. Individual customers just get the costs passed on to them thru State/Local Utility Rate Commissions.