Refugees and the right to return

[Shusha]

The right of return is NOT to unbreak eggs, but to ensure people uprooted by war and conflict are not left in misery, but restored to a healthy, productive life.

This whole "right of return" as special treatment for the Palestinians has been a DISASTER for them. It should be corrected immediately, in exactly the same way we treat other refugees. But a child of Palestinian ancestry who was born to a wealthy family in the US, educated there and is now a lawyer with three children who will be attending Harvard is NOT a refugee.

 

[Eloy]

When they are repatriated to what is now Israel, as per the UN Resolution 194:

"11. Resolves that the refugees wishing to return to their homes and live at peace with their neighbours should be permitted to do so at the earliest practicable date....."

This part has always been a wee bit problematic...

Repatriating refugees and their children is only a "problem" because the Israelis refuse to honor UN Resolution 194.

...and some of the refugees don't wish to "live at peace with their neighbours"...

Should decendents be allowed a "right of return"?

And again - How far back do you go...?

People have a right to defend themselves against massacres, assassination, and assault by occupation troops and "border" police.

As long as the descendants refugees want to return then they have that right. For example, only two years ago Spain passed a law which grants the right of return to the descendants of Jews expelled half a millennium ago:
Spain passes law of return for Sephardic Jews

King Felipe and Sephardi Chief Rabbi of Israel Shlomo Moshe Amar in 2015

I suspect it was a symbolic gesture made by Spain. Did they make the same offer to the Spanish Muslims who were expelled?

How far back should we go in allowing descendents of an expelled people a "right of return"?

If you take a right of return as an indefinate right (and I don't) - then every Jew has a right to return to Palestine as well as every Palestinian refugee.

Suspect all you like, they went back 500 years and offered a right of return. You don't like that, do you?

 

[Coyote]

This part has always been a wee bit problematic...

Repatriating refugees and their children is only a "problem" because the Israelis refuse to honor UN Resolution 194.

...and some of the refugees don't wish to "live at peace with their neighbours"...

Should decendents be allowed a "right of return"?

And again - How far back do you go...?

People have a right to defend themselves against massacres, assassination, and assault by occupation troops and "border" police.

As long as the descendants refugees want to return then they have that right. For example, only two years ago Spain passed a law which grants the right of return to the descendants of Jews expelled half a millennium ago:
Spain passes law of return for Sephardic Jews

King Felipe and Sephardi Chief Rabbi of Israel Shlomo Moshe Amar in 2015

I suspect it was a symbolic gesture made by Spain. Did they make the same offer to the Spanish Muslims who were expelled?

How far back should we go in allowing descendents of an expelled people a "right of return"?

If you take a right of return as an indefinate right (and I don't) - then every Jew has a right to return to Palestine as well as every Palestinian refugee.

Suspect all you like, they went back 500 years and offered a right of return. You don't like that, do you?

I have no problem with it...although, if the offer was denied the Moors who were expelled then it's hypocritical.

The thing is ... how far back do you go and who is included and who is excluded?

 

[P F Tinmore]

Repatriating refugees and their children is only a "problem" because the Israelis refuse to honor UN Resolution 194.

...and some of the refugees don't wish to "live at peace with their neighbours"...

Should decendents be allowed a "right of return"?

And again - How far back do you go...?

People have a right to defend themselves against massacres, assassination, and assault by occupation troops and "border" police.

As long as the descendants refugees want to return then they have that right. For example, only two years ago Spain passed a law which grants the right of return to the descendants of Jews expelled half a millennium ago:
Spain passes law of return for Sephardic Jews

King Felipe and Sephardi Chief Rabbi of Israel Shlomo Moshe Amar in 2015

I suspect it was a symbolic gesture made by Spain. Did they make the same offer to the Spanish Muslims who were expelled?

How far back should we go in allowing descendents of an expelled people a "right of return"?

If you take a right of return as an indefinate right (and I don't) - then every Jew has a right to return to Palestine as well as every Palestinian refugee.

Suspect all you like, they went back 500 years and offered a right of return. You don't like that, do you?

I have no problem with it...although, if the offer was denied the Moors who were expelled then it's hypocritical.

The thing is ... how far back do you go and who is included and who is excluded?

It definitely applies to the Palestinians because they have records of citizenship. It would be more problematic for those who don't.

 

[Shusha]

It definitely applies to the Palestinians because they have records of citizenship. It would be more problematic for those who don't.

But how far forward you go is also a legitimate question. The purpose of this kind of human rights law is to prevent human rights atrocities, specifically, in this case, to prevent people living in stateless poverty in refugee camps surrounded by walls and barbed wire. The global community is not supporting a human rights atrocity rather than remedying it. And some Palestinians are truly suffering for it. This needs to end. Sooner rather than later.

 

[Shusha]

This is another one of Palestinians ridiculous insistence to hold on to the ideas of past wrongs -- rather than applying solutions to real problems.

 

[Eloy]

Repatriating refugees and their children is only a "problem" because the Israelis refuse to honor UN Resolution 194.

...and some of the refugees don't wish to "live at peace with their neighbours"...

Should decendents be allowed a "right of return"?

And again - How far back do you go...?

People have a right to defend themselves against massacres, assassination, and assault by occupation troops and "border" police.

As long as the descendants refugees want to return then they have that right. For example, only two years ago Spain passed a law which grants the right of return to the descendants of Jews expelled half a millennium ago:
Spain passes law of return for Sephardic Jews

King Felipe and Sephardi Chief Rabbi of Israel Shlomo Moshe Amar in 2015

I suspect it was a symbolic gesture made by Spain. Did they make the same offer to the Spanish Muslims who were expelled?

How far back should we go in allowing descendents of an expelled people a "right of return"?

If you take a right of return as an indefinate right (and I don't) - then every Jew has a right to return to Palestine as well as every Palestinian refugee.

Suspect all you like, they went back 500 years and offered a right of return. You don't like that, do you?

I have no problem with it...although, if the offer was denied the Moors who were expelled then it's hypocritical.

The thing is ... how far back do you go and who is included and who is excluded?

As the Spanish have shown, you go back as far as necessary to do the right thing.
All the descendants of the original refugees are included as the Spanish made clear.

 

[montelatici]

It definitely applies to the Palestinians because they have records of citizenship. It would be more problematic for those who don't.

But how far forward you go is also a legitimate question. The purpose of this kind of human rights law is to prevent human rights atrocities, specifically, in this case, to prevent people living in stateless poverty in refugee camps surrounded by walls and barbed wire. The global community is not supporting a human rights atrocity rather than remedying it. And some Palestinians are truly suffering for it. This needs to end. Sooner rather than later.

The UN resolution 194 one of a few that apply to the Palestinian refugees states: "11. Resolves that the refugees wishing to return to their homes and live at peace with their neighbours should be permitted to do so at the earliest practicable date..."

If the Israelis refuse to adhere to UN demands, there is not much "the world" can do.

 

[Shusha]

The UN resolution 194 one of a few that apply to the Palestinian refugees states: "11. Resolves that the refugees wishing to return to their homes and live at peace with their neighbours should be permitted to do so at the earliest practicable date..."

If the Israelis refuse to adhere to UN demands, there is not much "the world" can do.

The peace part has to be demonstrated first. We are still waiting.

 

[montelatici]

No, the process is that Israel repatriats the people (and their descendants) that they expelled and returns their lands and homes. It is an Israeli administrative process that the UN observes.

 

[Eloy]

The UN resolution 194 one of a few that apply to the Palestinian refugees states: "11. Resolves that the refugees wishing to return to their homes and live at peace with their neighbours should be permitted to do so at the earliest practicable date..."

If the Israelis refuse to adhere to UN demands, there is not much "the world" can do.

The peace part has to be demonstrated first. We are still waiting.

In the sentence, it reads "return to their homes and live in peace". The return to their homes is mentioned first, then comes the peace. You are getting it backwards.

 

[Shusha]

Returning to their homes is conditional upon their willingness to live in peace. Once the condition is met, we can talk about it. Not going to happen while the conflict continues. Meantime Palestinians are suffering. Something should be done.

 

[P F Tinmore]

Returning to their homes is conditional upon their willingness to live in peace. Once the condition is met, we can talk about it. Not going to happen while the conflict continues. Meantime Palestinians are suffering. Something should be done.

So, how many returned to their homes and did not live in peace?

 

[Shusha]

So, how many returned to their homes and did not live in peace?

There is no peace. The conflict continues. The promise of conflict in both word and deed continues.

It's not about individuals. I'm quite certain that individual Arabs can refrain from stabbing their neighbors.

It's about the two communities. In order for the two communities to co-exist in peace there can be no more "freedom fighting" and no more "resistance". The Arab people have not accepted this in either concept nor in practical application.

 

[P F Tinmore]

So, how many returned to their homes and did not live in peace?

There is no peace. The conflict continues. The promise of conflict in both word and deed continues.

It's not about individuals. I'm quite certain that individual Arabs can refrain from stabbing their neighbors.

It's about the two communities. In order for the two communities to co-exist in peace there can be no more "freedom fighting" and no more "resistance". The Arab people have not accepted this in either concept nor in practical application.

no more "freedom fighting" and no more "resistance"

Indeed, if there was freedom all of that would go away.

 

[Coyote]

...and some of the refugees don't wish to "live at peace with their neighbours"...

Should decendents be allowed a "right of return"?

And again - How far back do you go...?

People have a right to defend themselves against massacres, assassination, and assault by occupation troops and "border" police.

As long as the descendants refugees want to return then they have that right. For example, only two years ago Spain passed a law which grants the right of return to the descendants of Jews expelled half a millennium ago:
Spain passes law of return for Sephardic Jews

King Felipe and Sephardi Chief Rabbi of Israel Shlomo Moshe Amar in 2015

I suspect it was a symbolic gesture made by Spain. Did they make the same offer to the Spanish Muslims who were expelled?

How far back should we go in allowing descendents of an expelled people a "right of return"?

If you take a right of return as an indefinate right (and I don't) - then every Jew has a right to return to Palestine as well as every Palestinian refugee.

Suspect all you like, they went back 500 years and offered a right of return. You don't like that, do you?

I have no problem with it...although, if the offer was denied the Moors who were expelled then it's hypocritical.

The thing is ... how far back do you go and who is included and who is excluded?

It definitely applies to the Palestinians because they have records of citizenship. It would be more problematic for those who don't.

Is it dependent on records of citizenship?

 

[Coyote]

...and some of the refugees don't wish to "live at peace with their neighbours"...

Should decendents be allowed a "right of return"?

And again - How far back do you go...?

People have a right to defend themselves against massacres, assassination, and assault by occupation troops and "border" police.

As long as the descendants refugees want to return then they have that right. For example, only two years ago Spain passed a law which grants the right of return to the descendants of Jews expelled half a millennium ago:
Spain passes law of return for Sephardic Jews

King Felipe and Sephardi Chief Rabbi of Israel Shlomo Moshe Amar in 2015

I suspect it was a symbolic gesture made by Spain. Did they make the same offer to the Spanish Muslims who were expelled?

How far back should we go in allowing descendents of an expelled people a "right of return"?

If you take a right of return as an indefinate right (and I don't) - then every Jew has a right to return to Palestine as well as every Palestinian refugee.

Suspect all you like, they went back 500 years and offered a right of return. You don't like that, do you?

I have no problem with it...although, if the offer was denied the Moors who were expelled then it's hypocritical.

The thing is ... how far back do you go and who is included and who is excluded?

As the Spanish have shown, you go back as far as necessary to do the right thing.
All the descendants of the original refugees are included as the Spanish made clear.

That is very broad then. Given that the Jews were expelled thousands of years ago...do you then believe all Jews have a right of return to right an ancient wrong?

 

[P F Tinmore]

People have a right to defend themselves against massacres, assassination, and assault by occupation troops and "border" police.

As long as the descendants refugees want to return then they have that right. For example, only two years ago Spain passed a law which grants the right of return to the descendants of Jews expelled half a millennium ago:
Spain passes law of return for Sephardic Jews

King Felipe and Sephardi Chief Rabbi of Israel Shlomo Moshe Amar in 2015

I suspect it was a symbolic gesture made by Spain. Did they make the same offer to the Spanish Muslims who were expelled?

How far back should we go in allowing descendents of an expelled people a "right of return"?

If you take a right of return as an indefinate right (and I don't) - then every Jew has a right to return to Palestine as well as every Palestinian refugee.

Suspect all you like, they went back 500 years and offered a right of return. You don't like that, do you?

I have no problem with it...although, if the offer was denied the Moors who were expelled then it's hypocritical.

The thing is ... how far back do you go and who is included and who is excluded?

It definitely applies to the Palestinians because they have records of citizenship. It would be more problematic for those who don't.

Is it dependent on records of citizenship?

That is a tough call. How can you claim the right to return if there is no evidence that you have any ancestors from that place.

 

[Shusha]

No evidence that the Jewish people's ancestral, historical, cultural and religious homeland is Israel and Judah? You've GOT to be kidding me.

 

[Shusha]

What kind of evidence are you looking for? Tell you what, let's send all the Palestinians to South America for a few hundred years. Then tell me what kind of evidence you would be looking for to see if they still had the right to return?