Refugees and the right to return

[Coyote]

I suspect it was a symbolic gesture made by Spain. Did they make the same offer to the Spanish Muslims who were expelled?

How far back should we go in allowing descendents of an expelled people a "right of return"?

If you take a right of return as an indefinate right (and I don't) - then every Jew has a right to return to Palestine as well as every Palestinian refugee.

Suspect all you like, they went back 500 years and offered a right of return. You don't like that, do you?

I have no problem with it...although, if the offer was denied the Moors who were expelled then it's hypocritical.

The thing is ... how far back do you go and who is included and who is excluded?

It definitely applies to the Palestinians because they have records of citizenship. It would be more problematic for those who don't.

Is it dependent on records of citizenship?

That is a tough call. How can you claim the right to return if there is no evidence that you have any ancestors from that place.

What do you consider "evidence"?

 

[Coyote]

No evidence that the Jewish people's ancestral, historical, cultural and religious homeland is Israel and Judah? You've GOT to be kidding me.

The homelands of the Jews have been all over Europe. The idea that there is one homeland for all Jews is a fabrication. The religion was established in Judea which became Roman and then Christianity was established in the very same place, Jerusalem. It would be astonishing for a claim to be made today as it was in the 11th century that Jerusalem is therefore the homeland of all Christians. Subsequently, Islam became established in the same place which is why we call it the Holy Land where three of the world's great religions had claim.

Now it is time to quit the fiction that Palestine belongs exclusively to the Jews. It does not. No more than it belongs to Christianity or Islam. Palestine belongs to the people who live there and Palestinians who lived in what became the modern state of Israel which is flooding the place with Jews from the former Soviet Union and Poland, who have no claim on the land any more than Scottish Presbyterians, Bavarian Catholics, or Indonesian Muslims.

It doesn't belong "exclusively" to the Jews but you can't discount their ORIGINS there. Unlike Christianity and other religions - Judaism is also an ethnic group. Their history is recorded in their religious texts and parts of it are born out in archealogical evidence not to mention genetic evidence.

Palestine has seen many movements of people and waves of conquest. Given that - what are your feelings about Palestine being flooded by migrants from Egypt, Syria, and other Arab countries who "have no claim on the land" either? The region saw immigration not only from European Jews but from Arab peoples who settled there.

 

[Coyote]

The Sephardic Jews who were expelled from Spain belonged to the faith community which began in Judea but Spain was their homeland, not Palestine. It is for this reason that the descendants of those who were expelled can claim a return to Spain today.

Okay, so let me see if I have this right, following your logic:

The Jewish people began (originated) in Judea. But Spain is their homeland. Right.

I guess that means the Palestinians began in Israel and Judea but Chile is their homeland.

No; you've got it wrong again. The Jewish religion originated in Judea, not the Jewish people. It would be a fallacy to use the word "people" because that would imply that Jewish people today originated in Judea. This is not the case for Jews from Moldova.

I think I see what you are trying to say....but it doesn't work. If Spain's Jews originated in Judea, were driven out of there and ended up in Spain, were expelled and dispersed once again and ended up in England. By your logic - their "homeland" is anywhere BUT Judea. Why Spain and not England? Why Spain and not Judea

 

[Eloy]

No evidence that the Jewish people's ancestral, historical, cultural and religious homeland is Israel and Judah? You've GOT to be kidding me.

The homelands of the Jews have been all over Europe. The idea that there is one homeland for all Jews is a fabrication. The religion was established in Judea which became Roman and then Christianity was established in the very same place, Jerusalem. It would be astonishing for a claim to be made today as it was in the 11th century that Jerusalem is therefore the homeland of all Christians. Subsequently, Islam became established in the same place which is why we call it the Holy Land where three of the world's great religions had claim.

Now it is time to quit the fiction that Palestine belongs exclusively to the Jews. It does not. No more than it belongs to Christianity or Islam. Palestine belongs to the people who live there and Palestinians who lived in what became the modern state of Israel which is flooding the place with Jews from the former Soviet Union and Poland, who have no claim on the land any more than Scottish Presbyterians, Bavarian Catholics, or Indonesian Muslims.

It doesn't belong "exclusively" to the Jews

It must have escaped you that the Israelis consider their country to be a Jewish state.

but you can't discount their ORIGINS there.

I would contradict that the Jewish people have their origin in modern Israel.

Unlike Christianity and other religions - Judaism is also an ethnic group. Their history is recorded in their religious texts and parts of it are born out in archealogical evidence not to mention genetic evidence.

Jews are not an ethnic group in any sense. Moldovan Jews are European and both racially and culturally indistinguishable from their fellow countrymen. As for using the Bible as history, such an exercise is not respected academically or scientifically.

Palestine has seen many movements of people and waves of conquest. Given that - what are your feelings about Palestine being flooded by migrants from Egypt, Syria, and other Arab countries who "have no claim on the land" either? The region saw immigration not only from European Jews but from Arab peoples who settled there.

All I know is that native-born indigenous Palestinians have been dispossessed of their land and displaced to the Occupied Territories and other Arab states to make room for an influx of Jews from the former Soviet Union and Poland.

 

[Coyote]

No; you've got it wrong again. The Jewish religion originated in Judea, not the Jewish people. It would be a fallacy to use the word "people" because that would imply that Jewish people today originated in Judea. This is not the case for Jews from Moldova.

Sure. And we always end up here. There is no such thing as the "Jewish people". And the Jewish not-people couldn't have actually originated in Israel and Judea, because admitting THAT would require you to give recognition to Jewish rights of return and self-determination and sovereignty.

The conflict will never end if either side rejects the idea of self-determination and sovereignty for the other.

The right of return has to be considered moving forward. Only moving forward. We have to find solutions.

With your logic, since the Christian people originated in Palestine Christians should have the right of return to Palestine. You just can't get it through your thick skull is that what makes a person a Jew or a Christian is adherence to Judaism or Christianity respectively. A Jew that converts to Christianity ceases to be a Jew and a Christian that converts to Judaism ceases to be a Christian.

Christianity is a religion spread by proselytizing - unlike Judaism. Christians around the world have only religion in common. Judaism can have converts, and there was marriage among other peoples during the diaspora (there would have to be in order to survive) but they've consistently traced their heritage to Judea regardless of where they've ended up. Christianity has never done that.

 

[Eloy]

The Sephardic Jews who were expelled from Spain belonged to the faith community which began in Judea but Spain was their homeland, not Palestine. It is for this reason that the descendants of those who were expelled can claim a return to Spain today.

Okay, so let me see if I have this right, following your logic:

The Jewish people began (originated) in Judea. But Spain is their homeland. Right.

I guess that means the Palestinians began in Israel and Judea but Chile is their homeland.

No; you've got it wrong again. The Jewish religion originated in Judea, not the Jewish people. It would be a fallacy to use the word "people" because that would imply that Jewish people today originated in Judea. This is not the case for Jews from Moldova.

I think I see what you are trying to say....but it doesn't work. If Spain's Jews originated in Judea, were driven out of there and ended up in Spain, were expelled and dispersed once again and ended up in England. By your logic - their "homeland" is anywhere BUT Judea. Why Spain and not England? Why Spain and not Judea

Spain's Sephardic Jews did not originate in Judea but in El Andalus which was their native home for centuries before the Reconquest by the Catholic Monarchs who expelled them. The word Sephardic simply means Jews from Spain.

 

[Coyote]

No evidence that the Jewish people's ancestral, historical, cultural and religious homeland is Israel and Judah? You've GOT to be kidding me.

The homelands of the Jews have been all over Europe. The idea that there is one homeland for all Jews is a fabrication. The religion was established in Judea which became Roman and then Christianity was established in the very same place, Jerusalem. It would be astonishing for a claim to be made today as it was in the 11th century that Jerusalem is therefore the homeland of all Christians. Subsequently, Islam became established in the same place which is why we call it the Holy Land where three of the world's great religions had claim.

Now it is time to quit the fiction that Palestine belongs exclusively to the Jews. It does not. No more than it belongs to Christianity or Islam. Palestine belongs to the people who live there and Palestinians who lived in what became the modern state of Israel which is flooding the place with Jews from the former Soviet Union and Poland, who have no claim on the land any more than Scottish Presbyterians, Bavarian Catholics, or Indonesian Muslims.

It doesn't belong "exclusively" to the Jews

It must have escaped you that the Israelis consider their country to be a Jewish state.

That is not the same as saying it belongs "exclusively to the Jews" and given the fact that many different religious groups do in fact live there as citizens that rather smushes the exclusivity idea.

but you can't discount their ORIGINS there.

I would contradict that the Jewish people have their origin in modern Israel.

Unlike Christianity and other religions - Judaism is also an ethnic group. Their history is recorded in their religious texts and parts of it are born out in archealogical evidence not to mention genetic evidence.

Jews are not an ethnic group in any sense. Moldovan Jews are European and both racially and culturally indistinguishable from their fellow countrymen. As for using the Bible as history, such an exercise is not respected academically or scientifically.

Moldovan Jews are European culturally and Jewish culturally - they always maintained their Jewish identity which is distinct. Even secular Jews are still Jews. It's not simply a religious identification.

Palestine has seen many movements of people and waves of conquest. Given that - what are your feelings about Palestine being flooded by migrants from Egypt, Syria, and other Arab countries who "have no claim on the land" either? The region saw immigration not only from European Jews but from Arab peoples who settled there.

All I know is that native-born indigenous Palestinians have been dispossessed of their land and displaced to the Occupied Territories and other Arab states to make room for an influx of Jews from the former Soviet Union and Poland.

The issue of people and place is a complex one and it's not as simple as one group displacing another. While it is a lie that the land was "empty" when large scale Jewish immigration began - neither was it crowded. There was a lot of empty land. There were also Jews already there and a lot of historically Jewish places that were inhabited by non-Jewish Palestinians. One side works hard to claim the Palestinians were all Arab invaders while the other side works hard to claim that the Jews were all European invaders. So I what is the motive behind that? To deny the legitimacy of a people? Because that is what it certainly is attempting.

According to MidEast Web - Population of Palestine:

3. Zionist settlement between 1880 and 1948 did not displace or dispossess Palestinians. Every indication is that there was net Arab immigration into Palestine in this period, and that the economic situation of Palestinian Arabs improved tremendously under the British Mandate relative to surrounding countries. By 1948, there were approximately 1.35 million Arabs and 650,000 Jews living between the Jordan and the Mediterranean, more Arabs than had ever lived in Palestine before, and more Jews than had lived there since Roman times. Analysis of population by sub-districts shows that Arab population tended to increase the most between 1931 and 1948 in the same areas where there were large proportions of Jews. Therefore, Zionist immigration did not displace Arabs. For a detailed discussion that focuses on this myth, please refer to Zionism and its Impact.​

 

[Eloy]

No evidence that the Jewish people's ancestral, historical, cultural and religious homeland is Israel and Judah? You've GOT to be kidding me.

The homelands of the Jews have been all over Europe. The idea that there is one homeland for all Jews is a fabrication. The religion was established in Judea which became Roman and then Christianity was established in the very same place, Jerusalem. It would be astonishing for a claim to be made today as it was in the 11th century that Jerusalem is therefore the homeland of all Christians. Subsequently, Islam became established in the same place which is why we call it the Holy Land where three of the world's great religions had claim.

Now it is time to quit the fiction that Palestine belongs exclusively to the Jews. It does not. No more than it belongs to Christianity or Islam. Palestine belongs to the people who live there and Palestinians who lived in what became the modern state of Israel which is flooding the place with Jews from the former Soviet Union and Poland, who have no claim on the land any more than Scottish Presbyterians, Bavarian Catholics, or Indonesian Muslims.

It doesn't belong "exclusively" to the Jews

It must have escaped you that the Israelis consider their country to be a Jewish state.

That is not the same as saying it belongs "exclusively to the Jews" and given the fact that many different religious groups do in fact live there as citizens that rather smushes the exclusivity idea.

but you can't discount their ORIGINS there.

I would contradict that the Jewish people have their origin in modern Israel.

Unlike Christianity and other religions - Judaism is also an ethnic group. Their history is recorded in their religious texts and parts of it are born out in archealogical evidence not to mention genetic evidence.

Jews are not an ethnic group in any sense. Moldovan Jews are European and both racially and culturally indistinguishable from their fellow countrymen. As for using the Bible as history, such an exercise is not respected academically or scientifically.

Moldovan Jews are European culturally and Jewish culturally - they always maintained their Jewish identity which is distinct. Even secular Jews are still Jews. It's not simply a religious identification.

Palestine has seen many movements of people and waves of conquest. Given that - what are your feelings about Palestine being flooded by migrants from Egypt, Syria, and other Arab countries who "have no claim on the land" either? The region saw immigration not only from European Jews but from Arab peoples who settled there.

All I know is that native-born indigenous Palestinians have been dispossessed of their land and displaced to the Occupied Territories and other Arab states to make room for an influx of Jews from the former Soviet Union and Poland.[/QUOTE]


The issue of people and place is a complex one and it's not as simple as one group displacing another. While it is a lie that the land was "empty" when large scale Jewish immigration began - neither was it crowded. There was a lot of empty land. There were also Jews already there and a lot of historically Jewish places that were inhabited by non-Jewish Palestinians. One side works hard to claim the Palestinians were all Arab invaders while the other side works hard to claim that the Jews were all European invaders. So I what is the motive behind that? To deny the legitimacy of a people? Because that is what it certainly is attempting.

According to MidEast Web - Population of Palestine:

3. Zionist settlement between 1880 and 1948 did not displace or dispossess Palestinians. Every indication is that there was net Arab immigration into Palestine in this period, and that the economic situation of Palestinian Arabs improved tremendously under the British Mandate relative to surrounding countries. By 1948, there were approximately 1.35 million Arabs and 650,000 Jews living between the Jordan and the Mediterranean, more Arabs than had ever lived in Palestine before, and more Jews than had lived there since Roman times. Analysis of population by sub-districts shows that Arab population tended to increase the most between 1931 and 1948 in the same areas where there were large proportions of Jews. Therefore, Zionist immigration did not displace Arabs. For a detailed discussion that focuses on this myth, please refer to Zionism and its Impact.​

[/QUOTE]
No one is in any doubt that when the Israelis refer to their country as a Jewish state they mean Jews have exclusivity for self-determination there. They say so themselves. Palestinians there are second class.

Moldovan Jews are culturally east European. Their religious faith does not imply a Middle Eastern Semitic culture whatsoever.

Non-observant Jews are not Jews no more than baptized Belgians who do not observe the Catholic faith can be said to be Catholics. Such people are secular but no less Moldovan or Belgian.

We are witnessing a major influx of European Jews into formerly Palestinian land which began in the last century and such people are given more legitimacy than the people they are displacing. There was always a sense in which Israel was established on stolen land and the Israelis might have got away with this had they not embarked on an occupation of the rest of Palestine since 1967 and, as we speak, building even more settlements there. The occupation will destroy Israel from within.

 

[flacaltenn]

Might sound silly and trollish at first -- but after reading several pages, I tossed up my hands and shouted (in a manner not becoming a former Jewish Sunday School teacher) ----

Christ !! What would Jesus do?

Just fill him in on the 19th/20th Century persecution and plight of Jewish refugees from the Nazis and the Russian Czars. (Although he would probably already have the details ). And he would probably already know the central importance of the Holy Land to the religion and culture.

He MIGHT say that His Father never LIKED the idea of THE Temple in Jerusalem and that "his people" should transcend that attachment to the concept of a "Jewish Homeland". OR -- that because of all the carnage and the pain that God would deliver them to a "Jewish Homeland" as was promised in the past.

Makes as much sense as any of the OTHER religious arguments. Which is barely NO sense at all.. Because it's not a RELIGIOUS argument. The Orthodox in Israel HATE the concept of a Jewish State. We have Louie88 to remind us of that. It's not religious ENOUGH for them for starters.

But something most ALL Jews agree on is that they had the organization, leadership, and focus to found a nation as a sanctuary for their people after a century of heinous abuse abroad. They became MORE than indigenous. They WORKED for a nation-state. And were prepared to make it out of dunes and desert.

That's how nation states get formed. You want ONE to "return to"?? Get organized. Elect leadership. Get your "religious brethren" to FUND a state. Lord knows -- that entire NEIGHBORHOOD is up for "urban renewal" right now... LOTS of opportunities to stake out some boundaries.

It's FIFTY YEARS of unsettled "occupation" and still to this DAY -- there's no responsible leadership to negotiate on the behalf of the people who "want to return".. Can't take much longer. Life goes on... The refugee camps OTH --- SHOULD NEVER -- just go on...

 

[P F Tinmore]

Suspect all you like, they went back 500 years and offered a right of return. You don't like that, do you?

I have no problem with it...although, if the offer was denied the Moors who were expelled then it's hypocritical.

The thing is ... how far back do you go and who is included and who is excluded?

It definitely applies to the Palestinians because they have records of citizenship. It would be more problematic for those who don't.

Is it dependent on records of citizenship?

That is a tough call. How can you claim the right to return if there is no evidence that you have any ancestors from that place.

What do you consider "evidence"?

Well, there are Ottoman records, British records, UN records, etc. for the Palestinians. The only thing the Jews have is a shared religion with some people who lived there thousands of years ago.

Do Jews have the right to live in Palestine? Sure.

Do they have the right to invade en mass, kick out the existing population, and pig the place for themselves? No.

 

[Shusha]

Do the Jewish people have the right to establish their national sovereign homeland there? Of course they do. As do the Arab Palestinians.

Can we just get ON with it?

 

[Shusha]

e]
No one is in any doubt that when the Israelis refer to their country as a Jewish state they mean Jews have exclusivity for self-determination there.

Yes. Exactly. The Jewish State will be the state for Jewish self-determination. The Arab State will be the state for Arab self-determination. That is what self-determination means. The self determines the state. In this case the "self" is the cultural community. You can't have self-determination when other controls you. Self-determination, by definition, is exclusionary.

The choices are no self-determination for either party. Or self-determination for both parties. But you can't at once demand self-determination for the Arabs while denying it to the Jews. So which is it? Self-determination for both or none?

 

[Shusha]

I would contradict that the Jewish people have their origin in modern Israel.

Don't be silly. Where did the Jewish people originate, then?

 

[Shusha]

Christianity is a religion spread by proselytizing - unlike Judaism. Christians around the world have only religion in common. Judaism can have converts, and there was marriage among other peoples during the diaspora (there would have to be in order to survive) but they've consistently traced their heritage to Judea regardless of where they've ended up. Christianity has never done that.

Exactly. With Christianity the religion (ideas) spread. With the Jewish people, the people spread.

 

[rylah]

I think this is relevant, Jews were never really understood in Europe, it's a different thought, view and way of life. The role of Jews and their expression through the ever-changing political language in Europe,was mistakenly understood as full assimilation. Jews are still misunderstood.

 

[rylah]

 

[Coyote]

I have no problem with it...although, if the offer was denied the Moors who were expelled then it's hypocritical.

The thing is ... how far back do you go and who is included and who is excluded?

It definitely applies to the Palestinians because they have records of citizenship. It would be more problematic for those who don't.

Is it dependent on records of citizenship?

That is a tough call. How can you claim the right to return if there is no evidence that you have any ancestors from that place.

What do you consider "evidence"?

Well, there are Ottoman records, British records, UN records, etc. for the Palestinians. The only thing the Jews have is a shared religion with some people who lived there thousands of years ago.

Do Jews have the right to live in Palestine? Sure.

Do they have the right to invade en mass, kick out the existing population, and pig the place for themselves? No.

Do the Egyptians, Syrians etc have the right to "invade en mass"? Because if you are going to accuse the Jews of that you can't ignore the other side.

 

[Eloy]

... Just fill him in on the 19th/20th Century persecution and plight of Jewish refugees from the Nazis and the Russian Czars. (Although he would probably already have the details ). And he would probably already know the central importance of the Holy Land to the religion and culture. ...

It is understandable that those who were left after the destruction of the European Jews in Nazi occupied land during the Second World War would feel insecure. This insecurity motivated some Jews, the Zionists, to quit Europe and establish a new homeland where they could feel they belonged simply because they were Jews. This is not the same thing as the establishment of a nation state and the British who believed they owned Palestine in the last century because they had a defunct League of Nations Mandate, did not mean a homeland would be created at the expense of the indigenous Arab Palestinians.

But something most ALL Jews agree on is that they had the organization, leadership, and focus to found a nation as a sanctuary for their people after a century of heinous abuse abroad. They became MORE than indigenous. They WORKED for a nation-state. And were prepared to make it out of dunes and desert.
That's how nation states get formed. ...

The flaw in your argument is that the founding of the nation state of Israel was done by dispossessing and displacing the indigenous Arabs. Palestine was not empty sand dunes and desert.

 

[Eloy]

I would contradict that the Jewish people have their origin in modern Israel.

Don't be silly. Where did the Jewish people originate, then?

I know a Jewish family who live in California where the children and grandchildren were born. This new generation originated in California. Before that their ancestors were Austrian not Middle Eastern.

 

[P F Tinmore]

It definitely applies to the Palestinians because they have records of citizenship. It would be more problematic for those who don't.

Is it dependent on records of citizenship?

That is a tough call. How can you claim the right to return if there is no evidence that you have any ancestors from that place.

What do you consider "evidence"?

Well, there are Ottoman records, British records, UN records, etc. for the Palestinians. The only thing the Jews have is a shared religion with some people who lived there thousands of years ago.

Do Jews have the right to live in Palestine? Sure.

Do they have the right to invade en mass, kick out the existing population, and pig the place for themselves? No.

Do the Egyptians, Syrians etc have the right to "invade en mass"? Because if you are going to accuse the Jews of that you can't ignore the other side.

Did they kick out the existing population?