Refugees and the right to return

[Eloy]

People have a right to defend themselves against massacres, assassination, and assault by occupation troops and "border" police.

As long as the descendants refugees want to return then they have that right. For example, only two years ago Spain passed a law which grants the right of return to the descendants of Jews expelled half a millennium ago:
Spain passes law of return for Sephardic Jews

King Felipe and Sephardi Chief Rabbi of Israel Shlomo Moshe Amar in 2015

I suspect it was a symbolic gesture made by Spain. Did they make the same offer to the Spanish Muslims who were expelled?

How far back should we go in allowing descendents of an expelled people a "right of return"?

If you take a right of return as an indefinate right (and I don't) - then every Jew has a right to return to Palestine as well as every Palestinian refugee.

Suspect all you like, they went back 500 years and offered a right of return. You don't like that, do you?

I have no problem with it...although, if the offer was denied the Moors who were expelled then it's hypocritical.

The thing is ... how far back do you go and who is included and who is excluded?

As the Spanish have shown, you go back as far as necessary to do the right thing.
All the descendants of the original refugees are included as the Spanish made clear.

That is very broad then. Given that the Jews were expelled thousands of years ago...do you then believe all Jews have a right of return to right an ancient wrong?

Whichever Jews were expelled millennia ago did not need an invitation to return from the Romans in the meantime. Europeans converted to Judaism over the centuries and these were not the descendants of those expelled. Sephardic Jews made their home in El Andaluz and they contributed much to the culture of Spain. These were at home in Spain and did not identify themselves as refugees until they became refugees from their homeland when Spain expelled them. They can now return.

 

[Eloy]

No evidence that the Jewish people's ancestral, historical, cultural and religious homeland is Israel and Judah? You've GOT to be kidding me.

The homelands of the Jews have been all over Europe. The idea that there is one homeland for all Jews is a fabrication. The religion was established in Judea which became Roman and then Christianity was established in the very same place, Jerusalem. It would be astonishing for a claim to be made today as it was in the 11th century that Jerusalem is therefore the homeland of all Christians. Subsequently, Islam became established in the same place which is why we call it the Holy Land where three of the world's great religions had claim.

Now it is time to quit the fiction that Palestine belongs exclusively to the Jews. It does not. No more than it belongs to Christianity or Islam. Palestine belongs to the people who live there and Palestinians who lived in what became the modern state of Israel which is flooding the place with Jews from the former Soviet Union and Poland, who have no claim on the land any more than Scottish Presbyterians, Bavarian Catholics, or Indonesian Muslims.

 

[THAI EXPAT]

The Palestinian Arabs listened to the Grand Mufti and fled the Palestine territory to wait for the slaughter of the Jewish Palestinians, by the Arab World.. But the Jewish Palestinians won, and wouldn't let them come back. Gamel Abdel Nasser who had dreams of a United Arab Caliphate with him as it's Leader, demanded they be kept as a separate people and condemned any country who wanted to resettle them. That is why their children still live in CAMPS today.
After 70 years, all the Palestinians are DEAD, except the one's living in Israel!. There is no one alive to return that isn't in Gaza or the West Bank. What is this right of return you are talking about?

 

[Shusha]

Europeans converted to Judaism over the centuries and these were not the descendants of those expelled.

Well, at least you recognize your own hypocrisy about the right of return applying only to some groups and some places. (Interesting that you should support the return of Jews to Spain, but not to Israel and Judah where they clearly originated.)

All this nonsense about "Europeans converting to Judaism" and being synthetic Jews and not "real" Jews is just so much concocted BS to avoid the inevitable realization that you apply the rules differently to Jews.

 

[Eloy]

The Palestinian Arabs listened to the Grand Mufti and fled the Palestine territory to wait for the slaughter of the Jewish Palestinians, by the Arab World.. But the Jewish Palestinians won, and wouldn't let them come back. Gamel Abdel Nasser who had dreams of a United Arab Caliphate with him as it's Leader, demanded they be kept as a separate people and condemned any country who wanted to resettle them. That is why their children still live in CAMPS today.
After 70 years, all the Palestinians are DEAD, except the one's living in Israel!. There is no one alive to return that isn't in Gaza or the West Bank. What is this right of return you are talking about?

Forgive me but you are coming late to the debate with repetition of an irrelevant argument which is not taking into account previous posts. Sorry.

 

[Shusha]

The idea that there is one homeland for all Jews is a fabrication.

Silly. Its like saying there isn't one homeland for the Irish and the idea that the Irish came from Ireland is just a fabrication.

 

[Eloy]

Europeans converted to Judaism over the centuries and these were not the descendants of those expelled.

Well, at least you recognize your own hypocrisy about the right of return applying only to some groups and some places. (Interesting that you should support the return of Jews to Spain, but not to Israel and Judah where they clearly originated.)

All this nonsense about "Europeans converting to Judaism" and being synthetic Jews and not "real" Jews is just so much concocted BS to avoid the inevitable realization that you apply the rules differently to Jews.

Stop calling me names.
You are in error to claim that all Jews originated in Israel unless you are referring to the Jewish religion, in which case the same can be said for Christians and Muslims.
The Sephardic Jews who were expelled from Spain belonged to the faith community which began in Judea but Spain was their homeland, not Palestine. It is for this reason that the descendants of those who were expelled can claim a return to Spain today.

 

[Shusha]

The Palestinian Arabs listened to the Grand Mufti and fled the Palestine territory to wait for the slaughter of the Jewish Palestinians, by the Arab World.. But the Jewish Palestinians won, and wouldn't let them come back. Gamel Abdel Nasser who had dreams of a United Arab Caliphate with him as it's Leader, demanded they be kept as a separate people and condemned any country who wanted to resettle them. That is why their children still live in CAMPS today.
After 70 years, all the Palestinians are DEAD, except the one's living in Israel!. There is no one alive to return that isn't in Gaza or the West Bank. What is this right of return you are talking about?

Forgive me but you are coming late to the debate with repetition of an irrelevant argument which is not taking into account previous posts. Sorry.

Actually, it is an EXTREMELY valid point, indeed the foundation of what we've been discussing all day. Who are refugees? Who has a right to return? Is it a condition which can and should be passed on from generation to generation? For how many generations? What gives validity to passing on right to return? How can we recognize, after the long passage of time, whether someone has the qualities which give them the right of return?

IF we define refugees as individuals, rather than generationally, then Thai Expat is exactly right. There are very few still living to return.

 

[Shusha]

Stop calling me names.

LOL

 

[Shusha]

The Sephardic Jews who were expelled from Spain belonged to the faith community which began in Judea but Spain was their homeland, not Palestine. It is for this reason that the descendants of those who were expelled can claim a return to Spain today.

Okay, so let me see if I have this right, following your logic:

The Jewish people began (originated) in Judea. But Spain is their homeland. Right.

I guess that means the Palestinians began in Israel and Judea but Chile is their homeland.

 

[Eloy]

The idea that there is one homeland for all Jews is a fabrication.

Silly. Its like saying there isn't one homeland for the Irish and the idea that the Irish came from Ireland is just a fabrication.

I regret to have to say that you have lost all sense of the argument for the right of return of Palestinian refugees.

 

[Eloy]

The Sephardic Jews who were expelled from Spain belonged to the faith community which began in Judea but Spain was their homeland, not Palestine. It is for this reason that the descendants of those who were expelled can claim a return to Spain today.

Okay, so let me see if I have this right, following your logic:

The Jewish people began (originated) in Judea. But Spain is their homeland. Right.

I guess that means the Palestinians began in Israel and Judea but Chile is their homeland.

No; you've got it wrong again. The Jewish religion originated in Judea, not the Jewish people. It would be a fallacy to use the word "people" because that would imply that Jewish people today originated in Judea. This is not the case for Jews from Moldova.

 

[Shusha]

No; you've got it wrong again. The Jewish religion originated in Judea, not the Jewish people. It would be a fallacy to use the word "people" because that would imply that Jewish people today originated in Judea. This is not the case for Jews from Moldova.

Sure. And we always end up here. There is no such thing as the "Jewish people". And the Jewish not-people couldn't have actually originated in Israel and Judea, because admitting THAT would require you to give recognition to Jewish rights of return and self-determination and sovereignty.

The conflict will never end if either side rejects the idea of self-determination and sovereignty for the other.

The right of return has to be considered moving forward. Only moving forward. We have to find solutions.

 

[montelatici]

No; you've got it wrong again. The Jewish religion originated in Judea, not the Jewish people. It would be a fallacy to use the word "people" because that would imply that Jewish people today originated in Judea. This is not the case for Jews from Moldova.

Sure. And we always end up here. There is no such thing as the "Jewish people". And the Jewish not-people couldn't have actually originated in Israel and Judea, because admitting THAT would require you to give recognition to Jewish rights of return and self-determination and sovereignty.

The conflict will never end if either side rejects the idea of self-determination and sovereignty for the other.

The right of return has to be considered moving forward. Only moving forward. We have to find solutions.

With your logic, since the Christian people originated in Palestine Christians should have the right of return to Palestine. You just can't get it through your thick skull is that what makes a person a Jew or a Christian is adherence to Judaism or Christianity respectively. A Jew that converts to Christianity ceases to be a Jew and a Christian that converts to Judaism ceases to be a Christian.

 

[Shusha]

With your logic, since the Christian people originated in Palestine Christians should have the right of return to Palestine. You just can't get it through your thick skull is that what makes a person a Jew or a Christian is adherence to Judaism or Christianity respectively. A Jew that converts to Christianity ceases to be a Jew and a Christian that converts to Judaism ceases to be a Christian.

My thick skull just realizes that by denying the identity of the Jewish people AS a Jewish people, you get to pretend that your blatant antisemitism is somehow logical.

 

[montelatici]

With your logic, since the Christian people originated in Palestine Christians should have the right of return to Palestine. You just can't get it through your thick skull is that what makes a person a Jew or a Christian is adherence to Judaism or Christianity respectively. A Jew that converts to Christianity ceases to be a Jew and a Christian that converts to Judaism ceases to be a Christian.

My thick skull just realizes that by denying the identity of the Jewish people AS a Jewish people, you get to pretend that your blatant antisemitism is somehow logical.

There is nothing antisemitic about facts. An Inuit that practices Judaism is still an Inuit that practices Judaism. An Italian that practices Judaism is an Italian.

 

[Shusha]

There is nothing antisemitic about facts. An Inuit that practices Judaism is still an Inuit that practices Judaism. An Italian that practices Judaism is an Italian.

A Jew who lives in Italy is still Jewish. And a Jew who doesn't practice Judaism is still culturally a Jew.

 

[montelatici]

There is nothing antisemitic about facts. An Inuit that practices Judaism is still an Inuit that practices Judaism. An Italian that practices Judaism is an Italian.

A Jew who lives in Italy is still Jewish. And a Jew who doesn't practice Judaism is still culturally a Jew.

No, he/she is an Italian that practices Judaism. There is nothing remotely similar culturally between an Italian that practices Judaism and an Inuit that practices Judaism. Once an Italian ceases to practice Judaism he remains culturally Italian that practices another faith or no faith.

 

[Eloy]

The Palestinian Arabs listened to the Grand Mufti and fled the Palestine territory to wait for the slaughter of the Jewish Palestinians, by the Arab World.. But the Jewish Palestinians won, and wouldn't let them come back. Gamel Abdel Nasser who had dreams of a United Arab Caliphate with him as it's Leader, demanded they be kept as a separate people and condemned any country who wanted to resettle them. That is why their children still live in CAMPS today.
After 70 years, all the Palestinians are DEAD, except the one's living in Israel!. There is no one alive to return that isn't in Gaza or the West Bank. What is this right of return you are talking about?

Forgive me but you are coming late to the debate with repetition of an irrelevant argument which is not taking into account previous posts. Sorry.

Actually, it is an EXTREMELY valid point, indeed the foundation of what we've been discussing all day. Who are refugees? Who has a right to return? Is it a condition which can and should be passed on from generation to generation? For how many generations? What gives validity to passing on right to return? How can we recognize, after the long passage of time, whether someone has the qualities which give them the right of return?

IF we define refugees as individuals, rather than generationally, then Thai Expat is exactly right. There are very few still living to return.

If the Spanish can do it for the descendants of Sephardic Jews expelled over 500 years ago, the Israelis can do it for Palestinian refugees and their descendants after a mere 69 years.

 

[Shusha]

The Palestinian Arabs listened to the Grand Mufti and fled the Palestine territory to wait for the slaughter of the Jewish Palestinians, by the Arab World.. But the Jewish Palestinians won, and wouldn't let them come back. Gamel Abdel Nasser who had dreams of a United Arab Caliphate with him as it's Leader, demanded they be kept as a separate people and condemned any country who wanted to resettle them. That is why their children still live in CAMPS today.
After 70 years, all the Palestinians are DEAD, except the one's living in Israel!. There is no one alive to return that isn't in Gaza or the West Bank. What is this right of return you are talking about?

Forgive me but you are coming late to the debate with repetition of an irrelevant argument which is not taking into account previous posts. Sorry.

Actually, it is an EXTREMELY valid point, indeed the foundation of what we've been discussing all day. Who are refugees? Who has a right to return? Is it a condition which can and should be passed on from generation to generation? For how many generations? What gives validity to passing on right to return? How can we recognize, after the long passage of time, whether someone has the qualities which give them the right of return?

IF we define refugees as individuals, rather than generationally, then Thai Expat is exactly right. There are very few still living to return.

If the Spanish can do it for the descendants of Sephardic Jews expelled over 500 years ago, the Israelis can do it for Palestinian refugees and their descendants after a mere 69 years.

Except for the small problem that there is a conflict going on between the Arab Palestinians and Israel. Peace and recognition before we even consider such a thing.