Refugees and the right to return

[Eloy]

The original homeland of the Sephardi is Spain. Spain is where they get their name from and their culture as well as identity and self determination is part of Jewish Spain.

Are you seriously trying to tell me that you don't believe the Jewish people came originally from Israel and Judah? (You do realize that last is where they got their name and their culture from, right?). You are seriously trying to tell me you believe that the Jewish people originated in Spain?

Unbelievable.

Yes, the Sephardi originated in Spain, in Arab Al Andalus.

 

[flacaltenn]

It is understandable that those who were left after the destruction of the European Jews in Nazi occupied land during the Second World War would feel insecure. This insecurity motivated some Jews, the Zionists, to quit Europe and establish a new homeland where they could feel they belonged simply because they were Jews. This is not the same thing as the establishment of a nation state and the British who believed they owned Palestine in the last century because they had a defunct League of Nations Mandate, did not mean a homeland would be created at the expense of the indigenous Arab Palestinians.

And yet - it ended up recognizing a portion of Mandate to be under control of a predominantly Jewish state. The Palis HAD the entire West Bank under Jordanian Mandate for a couple decades.

Spoiler: And what did they DO with that opportunity?

They attacked the Capitol of Jordan , got their asses kicked out, and later on the King RENOUNCED all claim to the West Bank --- because he REFUSED to deal with them ever again

The British have done a lot of harm in our world. They left behind a divided Ireland on sectarian grounds in 1922 which causes trouble to this day. They left behind a partitioned India on religious grounds in 1947 and Pakistan is now India's worst enemy. They divided tribes in Africa so that, e.g. the Babakusu are partly in N/W Kenya and E Uganda, also leaving behind in 1961 a system of apartheid in racist South Africa which has only recently been ended due to world opprobrium. Leaving behind a problem of mass immigration of European Jews into Palestine which became so unmanageable that they left there with their tail between their legs and opening the way for a Jewish state in 1948. They are currently holding on to islands of Argentina and even part of the Spanish mainland. They have a lot to answer for.

Yeah.. So?? They had an Empire. Who Didn't? Except for the US.. Empires also bring STABILITY to regions. For LONG periods of time. As the Brits accidentally ended up doing in the Mid East. Was NOT any stroke of genius tho....

 

[Eloy]

Arabs refuse to consider Jewish sovereignty inside Palestine.

But you do realize this makes it an unsolvable problem, yes? And it is the Arab ideology which makes it an unsolvable problem. And that the people who are suffering while the problem remains unsolved are the Arab Palestinians.

The Israelis cannot wash their hands of the responsibility the bear for the misery they daily visit upon the Palestinian people.

 

[flacaltenn]

The flaw in your argument is that the founding of the nation state of Israel was done by dispossessing and displacing the indigenous Arabs. Palestine was not empty sand dunes and desert.

The major urban areas of Israel were acquired by VALID land deeds. From absentee Arab landlords who gave up title to that land in exchange for cash.. Stanford University has MANY of those original deeds in their archives. I posted them here numerous times. But the collection got moved back to the basement and the links are gone.

Is BUYING real estate -- dispossessing and displacing? Plenty of remaining historical transactions about the land deals..

There is a bit of controversy there in that Israel's absentee land owner laws made it much more difficult for Arab landowners to reclaim their property and allowed the state to confiscate it or buy it dirt cheap.

Asking for land documents before Palestinian refugees can return to their land would be like Swiss banks requiring death certificates from Auschwitz-Birkenau before valuables can be withdrawn by Jewish next-of-kin. It is obscene.

There's the same issue of an "indigenous" people never actually VALUING govt or formal infrastructure. You can't build a State without acknowledging property rights. And the Palis never were a "state"...

 

[Eloy]

The flaw in your argument is that the founding of the nation state of Israel was done by dispossessing and displacing the indigenous Arabs. Palestine was not empty sand dunes and desert.

The major urban areas of Israel were acquired by VALID land deeds. From absentee Arab landlords who gave up title to that land in exchange for cash.. Stanford University has MANY of those original deeds in their archives. I posted them here numerous times. But the collection got moved back to the basement and the links are gone.

Is BUYING real estate -- dispossessing and displacing? Plenty of remaining historical transactions about the land deals..

There is a bit of controversy there in that Israel's absentee land owner laws made it much more difficult for Arab landowners to reclaim their property and allowed the state to confiscate it or buy it dirt cheap.

Asking for land documents before Palestinian refugees can return to their land would be like Swiss banks requiring death certificates from Auschwitz-Birkenau before valuables can be withdrawn by Jewish next-of-kin. It is obscene.

There's the same issue of an "indigenous" people never actually VALUING govt or formal infrastructure. You can't build a State without acknowledging property rights. And the Palis never were a "state"...

Your attitude is condescending.
If, what the Zionists are doing to the Palestinian people in the Occupied Territories is an example of what good government means, then we must conclude that they learned well from their Nazi masters.

 

[Shusha]

Arabs refuse to consider Jewish sovereignty inside Palestine.

But you do realize this makes it an unsolvable problem, yes? And it is the Arab ideology which makes it an unsolvable problem. And that the people who are suffering while the problem remains unsolved are the Arab Palestinians.

The Israelis cannot wash their hands of the responsibility the bear for the misery they daily visit upon the Palestinian people.

Israel is confronted with an unsolvable problem and yet you demand that Israel be responsible for solving it? That makes as much sense as the "Jews are from Spain" nonsense.

 

[Shusha]

Honestly, its attitudes like the ones posted by Eloy and Tinmore which make me understand those here on the pro-Israel side who call for the expulsion of the remaining Arabs in the entire territory. Now, don't go jumping all over me about that -- I'm not suggesting we should do it; I'm only suggesting I understand the underlying futility in trying to make peace with people who insist on destroying an existing nation with rights to sovereignty and self-determination as the only solution.

 

[flacaltenn]

The flaw in your argument is that the founding of the nation state of Israel was done by dispossessing and displacing the indigenous Arabs. Palestine was not empty sand dunes and desert.

The major urban areas of Israel were acquired by VALID land deeds. From absentee Arab landlords who gave up title to that land in exchange for cash.. Stanford University has MANY of those original deeds in their archives. I posted them here numerous times. But the collection got moved back to the basement and the links are gone.

Is BUYING real estate -- dispossessing and displacing? Plenty of remaining historical transactions about the land deals..

There is a bit of controversy there in that Israel's absentee land owner laws made it much more difficult for Arab landowners to reclaim their property and allowed the state to confiscate it or buy it dirt cheap.

Asking for land documents before Palestinian refugees can return to their land would be like Swiss banks requiring death certificates from Auschwitz-Birkenau before valuables can be withdrawn by Jewish next-of-kin. It is obscene.

There's the same issue of an "indigenous" people never actually VALUING govt or formal infrastructure. You can't build a State without acknowledging property rights. And the Palis never were a "state"...

Your attitude is condescending.
If, what the Zionists are doing to the Palestinian people in the Occupied Territories is an example of what good government means, then we must conclude that they learned well from their Nazi masters.

No I wasn't condescending. But your "rebuttal" is out in left denial field and IS condescending.

What is the excuse for not having recorded property rights if Arab Palestine was "a thing"??? Is it because they transcended a tribal survivalist existence? Or because they relied heavily on violence and force to ensure those rights? Or because the "elders" held all that in their heads?

Most all the deeds I've EVER SEEN that were part of Jewish settlements came from Arab landowners that were GRANTED under Ottoman empire power. NOT under any Palestine Authority...

 

[Shusha]

Most all the deeds I've EVER SEEN that were part of Jewish settlements came from Arab landowners that were GRANTED under Ottoman empire power. NOT under any Palestine Authority...

Or granted by Jordan while under Jordanian occupation.

 

[louie888]

Honestly, its attitudes like the ones posted by Eloy and Tinmore which make me understand those here on the pro-Israel side who call for the expulsion of the remaining Arabs in the entire territory. Now, don't go jumping all over me about that -- I'm not suggesting we should do it; I'm only suggesting I understand the underlying futility in trying to make peace with people who insist on destroying an existing nation with rights to sovereignty and self-determination as the only solution.

You do realize that only psychopaths refer to theft and murder as "rights to sovereignty and self-determination," right?

 

[Shusha]

You do realize that denying sovereignty and self-determination to only the Jewish people is antisemitism, right?

I mean, you DO agree that rights to sovereignty and self-determination belong to ALL peoples and not just non-Jews, right?

 

[louie888]

You do realize that denying sovereignty and self-determination to only the Jewish people is antisemitism, right?

I mean, you DO agree that rights to sovereignty and self-determination belong to ALL peoples and not just non-Jews, right?

You did not answer my question, you deflected form it.

 

[Shusha]

You do realize that denying sovereignty and self-determination to only the Jewish people is antisemitism, right?

I mean, you DO agree that rights to sovereignty and self-determination belong to ALL peoples and not just non-Jews, right?

You did not answer my question, you deflected form it.

LOL. Pot. Kettle.

I responded to your question by rejecting your premise that the Jewish people stole anything from anyone. On the contrary, the Jewish people reasserted their right to return to the land which was usurped and stolen from them.

Your turn. Its not a difficult question. Do rights belong to all peoples, or just some?

 

[louie888]

You do realize that denying sovereignty and self-determination to only the Jewish people is antisemitism, right?

I mean, you DO agree that rights to sovereignty and self-determination belong to ALL peoples and not just non-Jews, right?

You did not answer my question, you deflected form it.

LOL. Pot. Kettle.

I responded to your question by rejecting your premise that the Jewish people stole anything from anyone. On the contrary, the Jewish people reasserted their right to return to the land which was usurped and stolen from them.

Your turn. Its not a difficult question. Do rights belong to all peoples, or just some?

There is NO EVIDENCE THAT the Jewish people WERE EVER EVICTED. WE HAVE A WHOLE THREAD DEDICATED TO THAT EXACT LIE.

 

[Shusha]

You do realize that denying sovereignty and self-determination to only the Jewish people is antisemitism, right?

I mean, you DO agree that rights to sovereignty and self-determination belong to ALL peoples and not just non-Jews, right?

You did not answer my question, you deflected form it.

LOL. Pot. Kettle.

I responded to your question by rejecting your premise that the Jewish people stole anything from anyone. On the contrary, the Jewish people reasserted their right to return to the land which was usurped and stolen from them.

Your turn. Its not a difficult question. Do rights belong to all peoples, or just some?

There is NO EVIDENCE THAT the Jewish people WERE EVER EVICTED. WE HAVE A WHOLE THREAD DEDICATED TO THAT EXACT LIE.

Dodging the question. In theory, though, say if there were evidence of the Jewish peoples existence on that land, you would agree that they have the same rights as all other peoples, wouldn't you?

Just a theoretical question, of course.

 

[Coyote]

What do you consider "evidence"?

Well, there are Ottoman records, British records, UN records, etc. for the Palestinians. The only thing the Jews have is a shared religion with some people who lived there thousands of years ago.

Do Jews have the right to live in Palestine? Sure.

Do they have the right to invade en mass, kick out the existing population, and pig the place for themselves? No.

Do the Egyptians, Syrians etc have the right to "invade en mass"? Because if you are going to accuse the Jews of that you can't ignore the other side.

Did they kick out the existing population?

Did anyone get kicked out as a result of immigration?

Not much initially...but...The Zionists and Britain colluded to colonize Palestine. Britain's military ran cover for the Zionists while they created "a state within a state" in Palestine. (Britain's words not mine.) When Britain planned to leave Palestine the Zionists rolled their military across Palestine attacking the civilians and driving them out of their homes. This plan was hindered by the Arab armies who entered Palestine in May of 1948. By this time about 300,000 Palestinian had already become refugees.

BTW, define immigrant.

Someone who moves from one country to another to settle permanently.

 

[Coyote]

The flaw in your argument is that the founding of the nation state of Israel was done by dispossessing and displacing the indigenous Arabs. Palestine was not empty sand dunes and desert.

The major urban areas of Israel were acquired by VALID land deeds. From absentee Arab landlords who gave up title to that land in exchange for cash.. Stanford University has MANY of those original deeds in their archives. I posted them here numerous times. But the collection got moved back to the basement and the links are gone.

Is BUYING real estate -- dispossessing and displacing? Plenty of remaining historical transactions about the land deals..

There is a bit of controversy there in that Israel's absentee land owner laws made it much more difficult for Arab landowners to reclaim their property and allowed the state to confiscate it or buy it dirt cheap.

Asking for land documents before Palestinian refugees can return to their land would be like Swiss banks requiring death certificates from Auschwitz-Birkenau before valuables can be withdrawn by Jewish next-of-kin. It is obscene.

How can you verify claims then?

 

[Coyote]

Arabs refuse to consider Jewish sovereignty inside Palestine.

But you do realize this makes it an unsolvable problem, yes? And it is the Arab ideology which makes it an unsolvable problem. And that the people who are suffering while the problem remains unsolved are the Arab Palestinians.

The Israelis cannot wash their hands of the responsibility the bear for the misery they daily visit upon the Palestinian people.

Yes they DO have some responsibility but attacking the very identity and heritage of the Jewish people themselves hardly seems to be the way to address that, in fact it sends a completely different message.

 

[Coyote]

The flaw in your argument is that the founding of the nation state of Israel was done by dispossessing and displacing the indigenous Arabs. Palestine was not empty sand dunes and desert.

The major urban areas of Israel were acquired by VALID land deeds. From absentee Arab landlords who gave up title to that land in exchange for cash.. Stanford University has MANY of those original deeds in their archives. I posted them here numerous times. But the collection got moved back to the basement and the links are gone.

Is BUYING real estate -- dispossessing and displacing? Plenty of remaining historical transactions about the land deals..

There is a bit of controversy there in that Israel's absentee land owner laws made it much more difficult for Arab landowners to reclaim their property and allowed the state to confiscate it or buy it dirt cheap.

Asking for land documents before Palestinian refugees can return to their land would be like Swiss banks requiring death certificates from Auschwitz-Birkenau before valuables can be withdrawn by Jewish next-of-kin. It is obscene.

There's the same issue of an "indigenous" people never actually VALUING govt or formal infrastructure. You can't build a State without acknowledging property rights. And the Palis never were a "state"...

Your attitude is condescending.
If, what the Zionists are doing to the Palestinian people in the Occupied Territories is an example of what good government means, then we must conclude that they learned well from their Nazi masters.

Another faux Nazi comparison.

 

[flacaltenn]

The flaw in your argument is that the founding of the nation state of Israel was done by dispossessing and displacing the indigenous Arabs. Palestine was not empty sand dunes and desert.

The major urban areas of Israel were acquired by VALID land deeds. From absentee Arab landlords who gave up title to that land in exchange for cash.. Stanford University has MANY of those original deeds in their archives. I posted them here numerous times. But the collection got moved back to the basement and the links are gone.

Is BUYING real estate -- dispossessing and displacing? Plenty of remaining historical transactions about the land deals..

There is a bit of controversy there in that Israel's absentee land owner laws made it much more difficult for Arab landowners to reclaim their property and allowed the state to confiscate it or buy it dirt cheap.

Asking for land documents before Palestinian refugees can return to their land would be like Swiss banks requiring death certificates from Auschwitz-Birkenau before valuables can be withdrawn by Jewish next-of-kin. It is obscene.

How can you verify claims then?

Oh I think that could be done to some lesser extent. Much the way we all know in America where the Apache, Seminole, Sioux TRIBAL homelands are. You have cemeteries, religious sites, cross tribal boundaries that were fought over, etc. Maybe even Mosque records of births, deaths, etc. ALTHOUGH -- I'm not sure that Islam kept the kind of records that Jews and Christians meticulously kept.

AND -- I'm sure to some extent this has been established. Both in the Holy Land and on this board. But with over 2 dozen LARGE refugee camps holding people who have been "expatriated" for generations in some OTHER Arab country and now CLAIM their ancestry in Israel --- that's a hard case to make as Israel becomes increasingly developed.

The type of RE-patriation that needs to occur is to get land swaps with Lebanon, Jordan, Syria, Egypt and Israel in RETURN for closing those camps... And put together a region IN TRUST for an actual Pali govt that MIGHT SOME DAY exist.. And to throw in some "sweeteners" that make the "reservation" economically viable and attractive.