Refugees and the right to return

[Hollie]

... Just fill him in on the 19th/20th Century persecution and plight of Jewish refugees from the Nazis and the Russian Czars. (Although he would probably already have the details ). And he would probably already know the central importance of the Holy Land to the religion and culture. ...

It is understandable that those who were left after the destruction of the European Jews in Nazi occupied land during the Second World War would feel insecure. This insecurity motivated some Jews, the Zionists, to quit Europe and establish a new homeland where they could feel they belonged simply because they were Jews. This is not the same thing as the establishment of a nation state and the British who believed they owned Palestine in the last century because they had a defunct League of Nations Mandate, did not mean a homeland would be created at the expense of the indigenous Arab Palestinians.

But something most ALL Jews agree on is that they had the organization, leadership, and focus to found a nation as a sanctuary for their people after a century of heinous abuse abroad. They became MORE than indigenous. They WORKED for a nation-state. And were prepared to make it out of dunes and desert.
That's how nation states get formed. ...

The flaw in your argument is that the founding of the nation state of Israel was done by dispossessing and displacing the indigenous Arabs. Palestine was not empty sand dunes and desert.

It's a bit of a stretch to suggest that migrants / land grabbers from Syria, Egypt and Lebanon, Turkish invaders and European Christian Crusaders were "indigenous Arabs".

What's comical is how such slogans are passed around the really angry, Joooo hating cabal.

 

[Shusha]

I would contradict that the Jewish people have their origin in modern Israel.

Don't be silly. Where did the Jewish people originate, then?

I know a Jewish family who live in California where the children and grandchildren were born. This new generation originated in California. Before that their ancestors were Austrian not Middle Eastern.

Sure. But why do you stop there? Before THAT they were from Israel, Judea and Samaria.

I have no problem with the consistency of your argument if you want to claim nationality, or even origin, based on residency. That is an internally consistent argument -- as long as you apply it equally to all peoples.

But if you go with this argument then you have effectively ended the argument about the Arab Palestinian "right of return". Because those Palestinians who now live in places other than Palestine/Israel are no longer Palestinian. They are nationals and originals to the territory in which they find themselves and are living. They have no right to return to a place that they don't belong to.

 

[Shusha]

Did they kick out the existing population?

The existing population was uprooted due to the conflict. The war in 1948, which created refugees on both sides, was a joint Arab effort to prevent Israeli (Jewish) sovereignty on any part of the territory.

Had that conflict not occurred, there would be no Arab Palestinian diaspora. So, it is disingenuous to lay responsibility for it entirely on Israel. The Arab Palestinians, as well as Jordan, Syria, Egypt, Lebanon and Iraq all played a part in it.

 

[Eloy]

I would contradict that the Jewish people have their origin in modern Israel.

Don't be silly. Where did the Jewish people originate, then?

I know a Jewish family who live in California where the children and grandchildren were born. This new generation originated in California. Before that their ancestors were Austrian not Middle Eastern.

Sure. But why do you stop there? Before THAT they were from Israel, Judea and Samaria.

I have no problem with the consistency of your argument if you want to claim nationality, or even origin, based on residency. That is an internally consistent argument -- as long as you apply it equally to all peoples.

But if you go with this argument then you have effectively ended the argument about the Arab Palestinian "right of return". Because those Palestinians who now live in places other than Palestine/Israel are no longer Palestinian. They are nationals and originals to the territory in which they find themselves and are living. They have no right to return to a place that they don't belong to.

Sephardim who had been living in South America until lately with citizenship of countries there are able have their right of return respected by the Spanish government since their forebears were expelled from their homeland in Andalucía.

 

[Shusha]

Sephardim who had been living in South America until lately with citizenship of countries there are able have their right of return respected by the Spanish government since their forebears were expelled from their homeland in Andalucía.

Right. So why wouldn't they also have the right to return to their original homeland in Israel, Judea and Samaria?

 

[flacaltenn]

It is understandable that those who were left after the destruction of the European Jews in Nazi occupied land during the Second World War would feel insecure. This insecurity motivated some Jews, the Zionists, to quit Europe and establish a new homeland where they could feel they belonged simply because they were Jews. This is not the same thing as the establishment of a nation state and the British who believed they owned Palestine in the last century because they had a defunct League of Nations Mandate, did not mean a homeland would be created at the expense of the indigenous Arab Palestinians.

And yet - it ended up recognizing a portion of Mandate to be under control of a predominantly Jewish state. The Palis HAD the entire West Bank under Jordanian Mandate for a couple decades.

Spoiler: And what did they DO with that opportunity?

They attacked the Capitol of Jordan , got their asses kicked out, and later on the King RENOUNCED all claim to the West Bank --- because he REFUSED to deal with them ever again

 

[flacaltenn]

The flaw in your argument is that the founding of the nation state of Israel was done by dispossessing and displacing the indigenous Arabs. Palestine was not empty sand dunes and desert.

The major urban areas of Israel were acquired by VALID land deeds. From absentee Arab landlords who gave up title to that land in exchange for cash.. Stanford University has MANY of those original deeds in their archives. I posted them here numerous times. But the collection got moved back to the basement and the links are gone.

Is BUYING real estate -- dispossessing and displacing? Plenty of remaining historical transactions about the land deals..

 

[louie888]

The major urban areas of Israel were acquired by VALID land deeds....

Cough, cough... bullshit.

...I posted them here numerous times. But the collection got moved back to the basement and the links are gone.

LMAO, sure, because you say so.

BOTTOM LINE: YOUR ZIONIST DEATH CULT REFUSING THE INDIGENOUS PEOPLE THE RIGHT TO RETURN TO THE LAND AND THE HOMES THAT WERE STOLEN FROM THEM IS PATHETIC.

 

[montelatici]

The flaw in your argument is that the founding of the nation state of Israel was done by dispossessing and displacing the indigenous Arabs. Palestine was not empty sand dunes and desert.

The major urban areas of Israel were acquired by VALID land deeds. From absentee Arab landlords who gave up title to that land in exchange for cash.. Stanford University has MANY of those original deeds in their archives. I posted them here numerous times. But the collection got moved back to the basement and the links are gone.

Is BUYING real estate -- dispossessing and displacing? Plenty of remaining historical transactions about the land deals..

Not even close. The Muslims and Christians owned about 90% of the land before partition (1945). As depicted by the UN map below.

 

[THAI EXPAT]

The new secret alliance between Israel, Egypt, UAE, Jordan and the future Kurdistan, means the Palestine question is MOOT! The PLO and Hezbollah can either work peacefully as Minority parties, and end violent resistance, or live under Police rule. The time for a two state solution has passed!
The only champions Palestinian Arabs have are western progressives, and they are going down quickly. The world knows it, but loony left dreams on.

 

[Hollie]

The flaw in your argument is that the founding of the nation state of Israel was done by dispossessing and displacing the indigenous Arabs. Palestine was not empty sand dunes and desert.

The major urban areas of Israel were acquired by VALID land deeds. From absentee Arab landlords who gave up title to that land in exchange for cash.. Stanford University has MANY of those original deeds in their archives. I posted them here numerous times. But the collection got moved back to the basement and the links are gone.

Is BUYING real estate -- dispossessing and displacing? Plenty of remaining historical transactions about the land deals..

Not even close. The Muslims and Christians owned about 90% of the land before partition (1945). As depicted by the UN map below.

I'm afraid you're reality challenged, sweetie. That's not what the map depicts.

 

[P F Tinmore]

The flaw in your argument is that the founding of the nation state of Israel was done by dispossessing and displacing the indigenous Arabs. Palestine was not empty sand dunes and desert.

The major urban areas of Israel were acquired by VALID land deeds. From absentee Arab landlords who gave up title to that land in exchange for cash.. Stanford University has MANY of those original deeds in their archives. I posted them here numerous times. But the collection got moved back to the basement and the links are gone.

Is BUYING real estate -- dispossessing and displacing? Plenty of remaining historical transactions about the land deals..

Two things here.

1. The Jews were only able to buy about 6-7% of Palestinian land.
2. Purchasing land does not remove that land from the country. Private ownership does not change the country it is in. It was still Palestinian land.

 

[Shusha]

When you say "Palestinian land" you mean the Jewish National Home.

 

[Shusha]

Land ownership is entirely irrelevant to sovereignty. The only reason it was brought up was because Eloy mentioned the "dispossession" of the Arab people. The Arab people were not dispossessed by purchase of land by Jews. They were dispossessed as a result of the conflict.

 

[Hollie]

The flaw in your argument is that the founding of the nation state of Israel was done by dispossessing and displacing the indigenous Arabs. Palestine was not empty sand dunes and desert.

The major urban areas of Israel were acquired by VALID land deeds. From absentee Arab landlords who gave up title to that land in exchange for cash.. Stanford University has MANY of those original deeds in their archives. I posted them here numerous times. But the collection got moved back to the basement and the links are gone.

Is BUYING real estate -- dispossessing and displacing? Plenty of remaining historical transactions about the land deals..

Two things here.

1. The Jews were only able to buy about 6-7% of Palestinian land.
2. Purchasing land does not remove that land from the country. Private ownership does not change the country it is in. It was still Palestinian land.

Two things here:

1. The Jews bought large tracts of land from absentee owners in Egypt, Syria and Lebanon. You falsely label the land as "Pal'istanian land". It was the Ottomans who controlled the land.

2. What "country" was the land in? Land in your invented "country of Pally'land"? No, it was not.

3. You are a hoot.

Well, that's like three things. I guess we can ignore your two things. That leaves us with:

1. You are a hoot.

 

[Shusha]

We really need to be discussing solutions.

And if your only "solution" is likely to cause the destruction of Jewish self-determination and sovereignty -- you need another solution.

 

[P F Tinmore]

Did they kick out the existing population?

The existing population was uprooted due to the conflict. The war in 1948, which created refugees on both sides, was a joint Arab effort to prevent Israeli (Jewish) sovereignty on any part of the territory.

Had that conflict not occurred, there would be no Arab Palestinian diaspora. So, it is disingenuous to lay responsibility for it entirely on Israel. The Arab Palestinians, as well as Jordan, Syria, Egypt, Lebanon and Iraq all played a part in it.

Had that conflict not occurred, there would be no Arab Palestinian diaspora.

The Zionists preplanned that conflict. About 300,00 Palestinians became refugees before the start of the 1948 war.

 

[P F Tinmore]

The flaw in your argument is that the founding of the nation state of Israel was done by dispossessing and displacing the indigenous Arabs. Palestine was not empty sand dunes and desert.

The major urban areas of Israel were acquired by VALID land deeds. From absentee Arab landlords who gave up title to that land in exchange for cash.. Stanford University has MANY of those original deeds in their archives. I posted them here numerous times. But the collection got moved back to the basement and the links are gone.

Is BUYING real estate -- dispossessing and displacing? Plenty of remaining historical transactions about the land deals..

Two things here.

1. The Jews were only able to buy about 6-7% of Palestinian land.
2. Purchasing land does not remove that land from the country. Private ownership does not change the country it is in. It was still Palestinian land.

Two things here:

1. The Jews bought large tracts of land from absentee owners in Egypt, Syria and Lebanon. You falsely label the land as "Pal'istanian land". It was the Ottomans who controlled the land.

2. What "country" was the land in? Land in your invented "country of Pally'land"? No, it was not.

3. You are a hoot.

Well, that's like three things. I guess we can ignore your two things. That leaves us with:

1. You are a hoot.

The Treaty of Lausanne ceded all of that land to Palestine.

 

[Shusha]

Did they kick out the existing population?

The existing population was uprooted due to the conflict. The war in 1948, which created refugees on both sides, was a joint Arab effort to prevent Israeli (Jewish) sovereignty on any part of the territory.

Had that conflict not occurred, there would be no Arab Palestinian diaspora. So, it is disingenuous to lay responsibility for it entirely on Israel. The Arab Palestinians, as well as Jordan, Syria, Egypt, Lebanon and Iraq all played a part in it.

Had that conflict not occurred, there would be no Arab Palestinian diaspora.

The Zionists preplanned that conflict. About 300,00 Palestinians became refugees before the start of the 1948 war.

Link?

 

[P F Tinmore]

Did they kick out the existing population?

The existing population was uprooted due to the conflict. The war in 1948, which created refugees on both sides, was a joint Arab effort to prevent Israeli (Jewish) sovereignty on any part of the territory.

Had that conflict not occurred, there would be no Arab Palestinian diaspora. So, it is disingenuous to lay responsibility for it entirely on Israel. The Arab Palestinians, as well as Jordan, Syria, Egypt, Lebanon and Iraq all played a part in it.

Had that conflict not occurred, there would be no Arab Palestinian diaspora.

The Zionists preplanned that conflict. About 300,00 Palestinians became refugees before the start of the 1948 war.

Link?

Approximately 250,000-300,000 Palestinians had fled or been expelled prior to the Israeli Declaration of Independence in May 1948; a fact which was named as a causus belli for the entry of the Arab League into the country, sparking the 1948 Arab-Israeli War.

1948 Palestinian exodus - Wikipedia