Refugees and the right to return

[Eloy]

The major urban areas of Israel were acquired by VALID land deeds. From absentee Arab landlords who gave up title to that land in exchange for cash.. Stanford University has MANY of those original deeds in their archives. I posted them here numerous times. But the collection got moved back to the basement and the links are gone.

Is BUYING real estate -- dispossessing and displacing? Plenty of remaining historical transactions about the land deals..

There is a bit of controversy there in that Israel's absentee land owner laws made it much more difficult for Arab landowners to reclaim their property and allowed the state to confiscate it or buy it dirt cheap.

Asking for land documents before Palestinian refugees can return to their land would be like Swiss banks requiring death certificates from Auschwitz-Birkenau before valuables can be withdrawn by Jewish next-of-kin. It is obscene.

There's the same issue of an "indigenous" people never actually VALUING govt or formal infrastructure. You can't build a State without acknowledging property rights. And the Palis never were a "state"...

Your attitude is condescending.
If, what the Zionists are doing to the Palestinian people in the Occupied Territories is an example of what good government means, then we must conclude that they learned well from their Nazi masters.

Another faux Nazi comparison.

I mean every word I type and can demonstrate any historical comparisons I use.

 

[Eloy]

The problem of the Zionist theft of Palestinian land and the half century of inhumane and illegal treatment of the Palestinian refugees by the Israeli occupation is not unsolvable.

As long as Israel is destroyed. Not. Going. To. Happen.

So you say.

 

[Indeependent]

There is a bit of controversy there in that Israel's absentee land owner laws made it much more difficult for Arab landowners to reclaim their property and allowed the state to confiscate it or buy it dirt cheap.

Asking for land documents before Palestinian refugees can return to their land would be like Swiss banks requiring death certificates from Auschwitz-Birkenau before valuables can be withdrawn by Jewish next-of-kin. It is obscene.

There's the same issue of an "indigenous" people never actually VALUING govt or formal infrastructure. You can't build a State without acknowledging property rights. And the Palis never were a "state"...

Your attitude is condescending.
If, what the Zionists are doing to the Palestinian people in the Occupied Territories is an example of what good government means, then we must conclude that they learned well from their Nazi masters.

Another faux Nazi comparison.

I mean every word I type and can demonstrate any historical comparisons I use.

So when are you booking your next vacation to Northern Syria?

 

[Eloy]

LOL. Pot. Kettle.

I responded to your question by rejecting your premise that the Jewish people stole anything from anyone. On the contrary, the Jewish people reasserted their right to return to the land which was usurped and stolen from them.

Your turn. Its not a difficult question. Do rights belong to all peoples, or just some?

There is NO EVIDENCE THAT the Jewish people WERE EVER EVICTED. WE HAVE A WHOLE THREAD DEDICATED TO THAT EXACT LIE.

Dodging the question. In theory, though, say if there were evidence of the Jewish peoples existence on that land, you would agree that they have the same rights as all other peoples, wouldn't you?

Just a theoretical question, of course.

Sure, every Jew who has evidence that he has ancestors from that land has rights.

Which would be all of them.

They obviously don't teach history at your temple.

From what we read, it is clear what is taught for what passes as history and that gets repeated by those who follow the Zionist line.

 

[P F Tinmore]

She never has proof, just lies repeated ad nauseum.

Proof that the Jewish people originated in Israel, Judea and Samaria? Really? Do you work for UNESCO?

See, there is your proof right there.

 

[rylah]

She never has proof, just lies repeated ad nauseum.

Proof that the Jewish people originated in Israel, Judea and Samaria? Really? Do you work for UNESCO?

See, there is your proof right there.

I guess صحراء يهودا has some clues

 

[Hollie]

The problem of the Zionist theft of Palestinian land and the half century of inhumane and illegal treatment of the Palestinian refugees by the Israeli occupation is not unsolvable.

As long as Israel is destroyed. Not. Going. To. Happen.

So you say.

Burqa'd threats from the Internet gee-hadi.

 

[Coyote]

There is a bit of controversy there in that Israel's absentee land owner laws made it much more difficult for Arab landowners to reclaim their property and allowed the state to confiscate it or buy it dirt cheap.

Asking for land documents before Palestinian refugees can return to their land would be like Swiss banks requiring death certificates from Auschwitz-Birkenau before valuables can be withdrawn by Jewish next-of-kin. It is obscene.

There's the same issue of an "indigenous" people never actually VALUING govt or formal infrastructure. You can't build a State without acknowledging property rights. And the Palis never were a "state"...

Your attitude is condescending.
If, what the Zionists are doing to the Palestinian people in the Occupied Territories is an example of what good government means, then we must conclude that they learned well from their Nazi masters.

Another faux Nazi comparison.

I mean every word I type and can demonstrate any historical comparisons I use.

If you are attempting to claim zionists and nazis are similar, no they aren't. A better comparison might be to manifest destiny. There is no valid comparison to nazism.

 

[Coyote]

The problem of the Zionist theft of Palestinian land and the half century of inhumane and illegal treatment of the Palestinian refugees by the Israeli occupation is not unsolvable.

As long as Israel is destroyed. Not. Going. To. Happen.

So you say.

Israel has been in existence for over three generations. Why do you wish the destruction of those people? They have proven their ability to grow a state maintain a peaceful coexistence with their fellow states and have far more rights, freedoms and equality then their neighbors. The Palestinians have yet to do that. That doesn't mean they can't or that their rights should be ignored but destroying a state and the lives of millions of people is not the way to do it. Israel is not evil, it's a state and it is comprised of people. It's not going to magically disappear for the convenience of its haters just like the Palestinians are not going to disappear for the convenience of their haters.

As has been said already, you can not undreamed eggs. What is YOUR path forward for a sustainable equitable peace?

 

[Coyote]

She never has proof, just lies repeated ad nauseum.

Proof that the Jewish people originated in Israel, Judea and Samaria? Really? Do you work for UNESCO?

See, there is your proof right there.

Do you disagree that their origins were in Palestine?

 

[Coyote]

There is NO EVIDENCE THAT the Jewish people WERE EVER EVICTED. WE HAVE A WHOLE THREAD DEDICATED TO THAT EXACT LIE.

Dodging the question. In theory, though, say if there were evidence of the Jewish peoples existence on that land, you would agree that they have the same rights as all other peoples, wouldn't you?

Just a theoretical question, of course.

Sure, every Jew who has evidence that he has ancestors from that land has rights.

Which would be all of them.

They obviously don't teach history at your temple.

From what we read, it is clear what is taught for what passes as history and that gets repeated by those who follow the Zionist line.

There is archaeological evidence tying them to that region.

 

[Coyote]

Arabs refuse to consider Jewish sovereignty inside Palestine.

But you do realize this makes it an unsolvable problem, yes? And it is the Arab ideology which makes it an unsolvable problem. And that the people who are suffering while the problem remains unsolved are the Arab Palestinians.

The Israelis cannot wash their hands of the responsibility the bear for the misery they daily visit upon the Palestinian people.

Israel is confronted with an unsolvable problem and yet you demand that Israel be responsible for solving it? That makes as much sense as the "Jews are from Spain" nonsense.

The problem of the Zionist theft of Palestinian land and the half century of inhumane and illegal treatment of the Palestinian refugees by the Israeli occupation is not unsolvable.

When Sephardic Jews were dispossessed and displaced from Spain by the Catholic Monarchs more than 500 years ago, many kept their house keys as a reminder of their lost homeland. Now their descendants are getting Spanish citizenship.

The issue of the refugees and their current situation is a complicated issue but you ignore part of the equation, that of the acts by the Arab states who have likewise abused and used the refugees.

 

[Coyote]

The flaw in your argument is that the founding of the nation state of Israel was done by dispossessing and displacing the indigenous Arabs. Palestine was not empty sand dunes and desert.

The major urban areas of Israel were acquired by VALID land deeds. From absentee Arab landlords who gave up title to that land in exchange for cash.. Stanford University has MANY of those original deeds in their archives. I posted them here numerous times. But the collection got moved back to the basement and the links are gone.

Is BUYING real estate -- dispossessing and displacing? Plenty of remaining historical transactions about the land deals..

There is a bit of controversy there in that Israel's absentee land owner laws made it much more difficult for Arab landowners to reclaim their property and allowed the state to confiscate it or buy it dirt cheap.

Asking for land documents before Palestinian refugees can return to their land would be like Swiss banks requiring death certificates from Auschwitz-Birkenau before valuables can be withdrawn by Jewish next-of-kin. It is obscene.

How can you verify claims then?

As the Swiss bankers asked the next of kin of Jews gassed at Auschwitz-Birkenau.

I am asking you...

 

[Coyote]

The flaw in your argument is that the founding of the nation state of Israel was done by dispossessing and displacing the indigenous Arabs. Palestine was not empty sand dunes and desert.

The major urban areas of Israel were acquired by VALID land deeds. From absentee Arab landlords who gave up title to that land in exchange for cash.. Stanford University has MANY of those original deeds in their archives. I posted them here numerous times. But the collection got moved back to the basement and the links are gone.

Is BUYING real estate -- dispossessing and displacing? Plenty of remaining historical transactions about the land deals..

There is a bit of controversy there in that Israel's absentee land owner laws made it much more difficult for Arab landowners to reclaim their property and allowed the state to confiscate it or buy it dirt cheap.

Asking for land documents before Palestinian refugees can return to their land would be like Swiss banks requiring death certificates from Auschwitz-Birkenau before valuables can be withdrawn by Jewish next-of-kin. It is obscene.

How can you verify claims then?

Oh I think that could be done to some lesser extent. Much the way we all know in America where the Apache, Seminole, Sioux TRIBAL homelands are. You have cemeteries, religious sites, cross tribal boundaries that were fought over, etc. Maybe even Mosque records of births, deaths, etc. ALTHOUGH -- I'm not sure that Islam kept the kind of records that Jews and Christians meticulously kept.

AND -- I'm sure to some extent this has been established. Both in the Holy Land and on this board. But with over 2 dozen LARGE refugee camps holding people who have been "expatriated" for generations in some OTHER Arab country and now CLAIM their ancestry in Israel --- that's a hard case to make as Israel becomes increasingly developed.

The type of RE-patriation that needs to occur is to get land swaps with Lebanon, Jordan, Syria, Egypt and Israel in RETURN for closing those camps... And put together a region IN TRUST for an actual Pali govt that MIGHT SOME DAY exist.. And to throw in some "sweeteners" that make the "reservation" economically viable and attractive.

My view is right of return only applie to those who had once actually lived in an area, not their descendants and the refugees need to be taken in by all involved states and given citizenship. They've been held hostage for too long.

 

[flacaltenn]

The major urban areas of Israel were acquired by VALID land deeds. From absentee Arab landlords who gave up title to that land in exchange for cash.. Stanford University has MANY of those original deeds in their archives. I posted them here numerous times. But the collection got moved back to the basement and the links are gone.

Is BUYING real estate -- dispossessing and displacing? Plenty of remaining historical transactions about the land deals..

There is a bit of controversy there in that Israel's absentee land owner laws made it much more difficult for Arab landowners to reclaim their property and allowed the state to confiscate it or buy it dirt cheap.

Asking for land documents before Palestinian refugees can return to their land would be like Swiss banks requiring death certificates from Auschwitz-Birkenau before valuables can be withdrawn by Jewish next-of-kin. It is obscene.

How can you verify claims then?

Oh I think that could be done to some lesser extent. Much the way we all know in America where the Apache, Seminole, Sioux TRIBAL homelands are. You have cemeteries, religious sites, cross tribal boundaries that were fought over, etc. Maybe even Mosque records of births, deaths, etc. ALTHOUGH -- I'm not sure that Islam kept the kind of records that Jews and Christians meticulously kept.

AND -- I'm sure to some extent this has been established. Both in the Holy Land and on this board. But with over 2 dozen LARGE refugee camps holding people who have been "expatriated" for generations in some OTHER Arab country and now CLAIM their ancestry in Israel --- that's a hard case to make as Israel becomes increasingly developed.

The type of RE-patriation that needs to occur is to get land swaps with Lebanon, Jordan, Syria, Egypt and Israel in RETURN for closing those camps... And put together a region IN TRUST for an actual Pali govt that MIGHT SOME DAY exist.. And to throw in some "sweeteners" that make the "reservation" economically viable and attractive.

My view is right of return only applie to those who had once actually lived in an area, not their descendants and the refugees need to be taken in by all involved states and given citizenship. They've been held hostage for too long.

Including in Israel.. The trick is to get all parties to provide a workable contiguous or semi-contiguous land areas. Roughly connected thru the Sinai Penin. and Jordan River Valley.

I've suggested connecting all that land with a Super Highway for commerce. From Gaza to West Bank to Lebanon. ALL the neighbors would benefit. And the Palis would have all the prime areas and cities on that route. That's a concept as old this conflict. Being ON a trade route ups your economic potential and status.

 

[Eloy]

If you are attempting to claim zionists and nazis are similar, no they aren't. A better comparison might be to manifest destiny. There is no valid comparison to nazism.

I beg to differ.

... As has been said already, you can not undreamed eggs. What is YOUR path forward for a sustainable equitable peace?

I would like to undreamed eggs.

 

[Eloy]

My view is right of return only applie to those who had once actually lived in an area, not their descendants and the refugees need to be taken in by all involved states and given citizenship. They've been held hostage for too long.

The Sephardic Jews were taken in by Muslims and Latin Americans for centuries and that did not abrogate the right of return of their descendants to become Spanish citizens since 2015.

 

[Eloy]

The major urban areas of Israel were acquired by VALID land deeds. From absentee Arab landlords who gave up title to that land in exchange for cash.. Stanford University has MANY of those original deeds in their archives. I posted them here numerous times. But the collection got moved back to the basement and the links are gone.

Is BUYING real estate -- dispossessing and displacing? Plenty of remaining historical transactions about the land deals..

There is a bit of controversy there in that Israel's absentee land owner laws made it much more difficult for Arab landowners to reclaim their property and allowed the state to confiscate it or buy it dirt cheap.

Asking for land documents before Palestinian refugees can return to their land would be like Swiss banks requiring death certificates from Auschwitz-Birkenau before valuables can be withdrawn by Jewish next-of-kin. It is obscene.

How can you verify claims then?

As the Swiss bankers asked the next of kin of Jews gassed at Auschwitz-Birkenau.

I am asking you...

I am neither a Swiss banker nor an Israeli.
Everyone knows who are the Palestinian refugees and their descendants. They have a right of return.

 

[Shusha]

My view is right of return only applie to those who had once actually lived in an area, not their descendants and the refugees need to be taken in by all involved states and given citizenship. They've been held hostage for too long.

And the refugees themselves should have some agency over where they choose to make their homes. Everyone has responsibility here -- Israel, "Palestine", Jordan, Lebanon, Egypt, Syria and Iraq.

All refugees who are no longer refugees -- in practical fact -- should be removed from consideration in terms of re-settlement. As in, removed from the lists and no longer considered refugees. This includes all of the Jewish refugees and their descendants, the Arab refugees and their descendants who have residency and citizenship in another nation, and all of those residing in Gaza and the "West Bank".

The actual refugees who are still living and not re-settled should be given the choice to return to the place from which they fled or were removed and be granted Israeli citizenship; to be re-settled in Palestine and granted Palestinian citizenship, or to be re-settled and granted citizenship in any of the remaining five States which bear responsibility for the problem. Their descendants should be re-settled in Palestine and granted Palestinian citizenship or re-settled and granted citizenship in the nation of their birth. (Palestine above means the Palestinian territory which would come under Arab sovereignty in a two (or three) more states solution).

Then all those displaced, on both sides, should receive compensation for their losses. The Arabs from Israel and the Jewish people from Palestine, Jordan, Lebanon, Egypt, Syria and Iraq.


Why should it be this way? Because it solves the problem. All the problems. And it ends the suffering of Arabs stuck in true refugee camps.

No, its not "fair". Its not "right". It is not fair to the million Jewish refugees who lost their homes and businesses and worldly goods. It is not fair to the 3/4 million Arabs who lost the same. But there is NO way to make it right or fair. There is no way for generations of peoples to be made whole and restored to an imaginary world that they might have lived in if events had not happened the way they did. The eggs are broken.

What can be done is to give all of those still being negatively affected by this conflict a better life and a future. And two (or three) nations a way to move forward past this conflict.

 

[flacaltenn]

There is a bit of controversy there in that Israel's absentee land owner laws made it much more difficult for Arab landowners to reclaim their property and allowed the state to confiscate it or buy it dirt cheap.

Asking for land documents before Palestinian refugees can return to their land would be like Swiss banks requiring death certificates from Auschwitz-Birkenau before valuables can be withdrawn by Jewish next-of-kin. It is obscene.

How can you verify claims then?

As the Swiss bankers asked the next of kin of Jews gassed at Auschwitz-Birkenau.

I am asking you...

I am neither a Swiss banker nor an Israeli.
Everyone knows who are the Palestinian refugees and their descendants. They have a right of return.

You really think that the time you're wasting with snarky answers actually HELPS the people who have 10 or 30 years in the refugee camps?

Figure out how to make BOTH sides happy. Figure out how to get people OUT of those camps. Or most of them. Sending them all to Israel is not gonna happen..