Refugees and the right to return

[louie888]

...people who have been "expatriated" for generations in some OTHER Arab country and now CLAIM their ancestry in Israel...

ANY OTHER COUNTRY, actually.

Please explain this simple concept to shusha.

 

[P F Tinmore]

The flaw in your argument is that the founding of the nation state of Israel was done by dispossessing and displacing the indigenous Arabs. Palestine was not empty sand dunes and desert.

The major urban areas of Israel were acquired by VALID land deeds. From absentee Arab landlords who gave up title to that land in exchange for cash.. Stanford University has MANY of those original deeds in their archives. I posted them here numerous times. But the collection got moved back to the basement and the links are gone.

Is BUYING real estate -- dispossessing and displacing? Plenty of remaining historical transactions about the land deals..

There is a bit of controversy there in that Israel's absentee land owner laws made it much more difficult for Arab landowners to reclaim their property and allowed the state to confiscate it or buy it dirt cheap.

Asking for land documents before Palestinian refugees can return to their land would be like Swiss banks requiring death certificates from Auschwitz-Birkenau before valuables can be withdrawn by Jewish next-of-kin. It is obscene.

There's the same issue of an "indigenous" people never actually VALUING govt or formal infrastructure. You can't build a State without acknowledging property rights. And the Palis never were a "state"...

All Israeli bullshit aside, Palestine has been a state since 1924. Palestine was born under occupation and has never been allowed to exercise their rights.

 

[P F Tinmore]

Honestly, its attitudes like the ones posted by Eloy and Tinmore which make me understand those here on the pro-Israel side who call for the expulsion of the remaining Arabs in the entire territory. Now, don't go jumping all over me about that -- I'm not suggesting we should do it; I'm only suggesting I understand the underlying futility in trying to make peace with people who insist on destroying an existing nation with rights to sovereignty and self-determination as the only solution.

I'm only suggesting I understand the underlying futility in trying to make peace with people who insist on destroying an existing nation

Like Israel literally wiping Palestine off the map.

It is understandable that he Palestinians resist that.

 

[P F Tinmore]

You do realize that denying sovereignty and self-determination to only the Jewish people is antisemitism, right?

I mean, you DO agree that rights to sovereignty and self-determination belong to ALL peoples and not just non-Jews, right?

You did not answer my question, you deflected form it.

LOL. Pot. Kettle.

I responded to your question by rejecting your premise that the Jewish people stole anything from anyone. On the contrary, the Jewish people reasserted their right to return to the land which was usurped and stolen from them.

Your turn. Its not a difficult question. Do rights belong to all peoples, or just some?

There is NO EVIDENCE THAT the Jewish people WERE EVER EVICTED. WE HAVE A WHOLE THREAD DEDICATED TO THAT EXACT LIE.

Dodging the question. In theory, though, say if there were evidence of the Jewish peoples existence on that land, you would agree that they have the same rights as all other peoples, wouldn't you?

Just a theoretical question, of course.

Sure, every Jew who has evidence that he has ancestors from that land has rights.

 

[Shusha]

You do realize that denying sovereignty and self-determination to only the Jewish people is antisemitism, right?

I mean, you DO agree that rights to sovereignty and self-determination belong to ALL peoples and not just non-Jews, right?

You did not answer my question, you deflected form it.

LOL. Pot. Kettle.

I responded to your question by rejecting your premise that the Jewish people stole anything from anyone. On the contrary, the Jewish people reasserted their right to return to the land which was usurped and stolen from them.

Your turn. Its not a difficult question. Do rights belong to all peoples, or just some?

There is NO EVIDENCE THAT the Jewish people WERE EVER EVICTED. WE HAVE A WHOLE THREAD DEDICATED TO THAT EXACT LIE.

Dodging the question. In theory, though, say if there were evidence of the Jewish peoples existence on that land, you would agree that they have the same rights as all other peoples, wouldn't you?

Just a theoretical question, of course.

Sure, every Jew who has evidence that he has ancestors from that land has rights.

Which would be all of them.

 

[P F Tinmore]

You did not answer my question, you deflected form it.

LOL. Pot. Kettle.

I responded to your question by rejecting your premise that the Jewish people stole anything from anyone. On the contrary, the Jewish people reasserted their right to return to the land which was usurped and stolen from them.

Your turn. Its not a difficult question. Do rights belong to all peoples, or just some?

There is NO EVIDENCE THAT the Jewish people WERE EVER EVICTED. WE HAVE A WHOLE THREAD DEDICATED TO THAT EXACT LIE.

Dodging the question. In theory, though, say if there were evidence of the Jewish peoples existence on that land, you would agree that they have the same rights as all other peoples, wouldn't you?

Just a theoretical question, of course.

Sure, every Jew who has evidence that he has ancestors from that land has rights.

Which would be all of them.

Load of crap.

Do you have any proof of that?

Of course not.

 

[Shusha]

Like Israel literally wiping Palestine off the map.

It is understandable that he Palestinians resist that.

Oh, please. You can't have it both ways.

You can't be all aggrieved that Palestine is "wiped off the map" while demanding that Israel be wiped off the map.

If its "understandable" that Palestinians resist that, its also understandable why the Jewish people resist having their nation destroyed.

 

[louie888]

You did not answer my question, you deflected form it.

LOL. Pot. Kettle.

I responded to your question by rejecting your premise that the Jewish people stole anything from anyone. On the contrary, the Jewish people reasserted their right to return to the land which was usurped and stolen from them.

Your turn. Its not a difficult question. Do rights belong to all peoples, or just some?

There is NO EVIDENCE THAT the Jewish people WERE EVER EVICTED. WE HAVE A WHOLE THREAD DEDICATED TO THAT EXACT LIE.

Dodging the question. In theory, though, say if there were evidence of the Jewish peoples existence on that land, you would agree that they have the same rights as all other peoples, wouldn't you?

Just a theoretical question, of course.

Sure, every Jew who has evidence that he has ancestors from that land has rights.

Which would be all of them.

They obviously don't teach history at your temple.

 

[Shusha]

Do you have any proof of that?

Of course not.

You are not going to join Eloy's ridiculous claim that the Jewish people originated in Spain, are you?

The theoretical question on the table is whether or not people have a right to return to lands they have been evicted from.

 

[louie888]

LOL. Pot. Kettle.

I responded to your question by rejecting your premise that the Jewish people stole anything from anyone. On the contrary, the Jewish people reasserted their right to return to the land which was usurped and stolen from them.

Your turn. Its not a difficult question. Do rights belong to all peoples, or just some?

There is NO EVIDENCE THAT the Jewish people WERE EVER EVICTED. WE HAVE A WHOLE THREAD DEDICATED TO THAT EXACT LIE.

Dodging the question. In theory, though, say if there were evidence of the Jewish peoples existence on that land, you would agree that they have the same rights as all other peoples, wouldn't you?

Just a theoretical question, of course.

Sure, every Jew who has evidence that he has ancestors from that land has rights.

Which would be all of them.

Load of crap.

Do you have any proof of that?

Of course not.

She never has proof, just lies repeated ad nauseum.

 

[Shusha]

They obviously don't teach history at your temple.

Yeah. Apparently I missed the day they taught the Jewish people originated in Spain.

 

[Indeependent]

You do realize that denying sovereignty and self-determination to only the Jewish people is antisemitism, right?

I mean, you DO agree that rights to sovereignty and self-determination belong to ALL peoples and not just non-Jews, right?

You did not answer my question, you deflected form it.

LOL. Pot. Kettle.

I responded to your question by rejecting your premise that the Jewish people stole anything from anyone. On the contrary, the Jewish people reasserted their right to return to the land which was usurped and stolen from them.

Your turn. Its not a difficult question. Do rights belong to all peoples, or just some?

There is NO EVIDENCE THAT the Jewish people WERE EVER EVICTED. WE HAVE A WHOLE THREAD DEDICATED TO THAT EXACT LIE.

Dodging the question. In theory, though, say if there were evidence of the Jewish peoples existence on that land, you would agree that they have the same rights as all other peoples, wouldn't you?

Just a theoretical question, of course.

Sure, every Jew who has evidence that he has ancestors from that land has rights.

My wife and I; Ancestry.com - the best way to deflate Islamic Revisionist Bullshit History.

 

[louie888]

They obviously don't teach history at your temple.

Yeah. Apparently I missed the day they taught the Jewish people originated in Spain.

Where did I ever claim that, toolbox?

They never taught that there is ZERO EVIDENCE OF THE FIRST TEMPLE, NOR THAT THE DIASPORA STORY IS JUST THAT, A STORY!

 

[Indeependent]

They obviously don't teach history at your temple.

Yeah. Apparently I missed the day they taught the Jewish people originated in Spain.

Where did I ever claim that, toolbox?

They never taught that there is ZERO EVIDENCE OF THE FIRST TEMPLE, NOR THAT THE DIASPORA STORY IS JUST THAT, A STORY!

Israel claims First Temple relic find

 

[Shusha]

She never has proof, just lies repeated ad nauseum.

Proof that the Jewish people originated in Israel, Judea and Samaria? Really? Do you work for UNESCO?

 

[Eloy]

Arabs refuse to consider Jewish sovereignty inside Palestine.

But you do realize this makes it an unsolvable problem, yes? And it is the Arab ideology which makes it an unsolvable problem. And that the people who are suffering while the problem remains unsolved are the Arab Palestinians.

The Israelis cannot wash their hands of the responsibility the bear for the misery they daily visit upon the Palestinian people.

Israel is confronted with an unsolvable problem and yet you demand that Israel be responsible for solving it? That makes as much sense as the "Jews are from Spain" nonsense.

The problem of the Zionist theft of Palestinian land and the half century of inhumane and illegal treatment of the Palestinian refugees by the Israeli occupation is not unsolvable.

When Sephardic Jews were dispossessed and displaced from Spain by the Catholic Monarchs more than 500 years ago, many kept their house keys as a reminder of their lost homeland. Now their descendants are getting Spanish citizenship.

 

[Eloy]

The major urban areas of Israel were acquired by VALID land deeds. From absentee Arab landlords who gave up title to that land in exchange for cash.. Stanford University has MANY of those original deeds in their archives. I posted them here numerous times. But the collection got moved back to the basement and the links are gone.

Is BUYING real estate -- dispossessing and displacing? Plenty of remaining historical transactions about the land deals..

There is a bit of controversy there in that Israel's absentee land owner laws made it much more difficult for Arab landowners to reclaim their property and allowed the state to confiscate it or buy it dirt cheap.

Asking for land documents before Palestinian refugees can return to their land would be like Swiss banks requiring death certificates from Auschwitz-Birkenau before valuables can be withdrawn by Jewish next-of-kin. It is obscene.

There's the same issue of an "indigenous" people never actually VALUING govt or formal infrastructure. You can't build a State without acknowledging property rights. And the Palis never were a "state"...

Your attitude is condescending.
If, what the Zionists are doing to the Palestinian people in the Occupied Territories is an example of what good government means, then we must conclude that they learned well from their Nazi masters.

No I wasn't condescending. But your "rebuttal" is out in left denial field and IS condescending.

What is the excuse for not having recorded property rights if Arab Palestine was "a thing"??? Is it because they transcended a tribal survivalist existence? Or because they relied heavily on violence and force to ensure those rights? Or because the "elders" held all that in their heads?

Most all the deeds I've EVER SEEN that were part of Jewish settlements came from Arab landowners that were GRANTED under Ottoman empire power. NOT under any Palestine Authority...

Your demand of property deeds and papers from dispossessed Palestinians is risible.
I wonder, to prove that Jews actually were murdered by the Nazis whether you have seen any death certificates for Jews who were riddled by Einsatzgruppe in Ukraine.

 

[Eloy]

The flaw in your argument is that the founding of the nation state of Israel was done by dispossessing and displacing the indigenous Arabs. Palestine was not empty sand dunes and desert.

The major urban areas of Israel were acquired by VALID land deeds. From absentee Arab landlords who gave up title to that land in exchange for cash.. Stanford University has MANY of those original deeds in their archives. I posted them here numerous times. But the collection got moved back to the basement and the links are gone.

Is BUYING real estate -- dispossessing and displacing? Plenty of remaining historical transactions about the land deals..

There is a bit of controversy there in that Israel's absentee land owner laws made it much more difficult for Arab landowners to reclaim their property and allowed the state to confiscate it or buy it dirt cheap.

Asking for land documents before Palestinian refugees can return to their land would be like Swiss banks requiring death certificates from Auschwitz-Birkenau before valuables can be withdrawn by Jewish next-of-kin. It is obscene.

How can you verify claims then?

As the Swiss bankers asked the next of kin of Jews gassed at Auschwitz-Birkenau.

 

[Eloy]

Arabs refuse to consider Jewish sovereignty inside Palestine.

But you do realize this makes it an unsolvable problem, yes? And it is the Arab ideology which makes it an unsolvable problem. And that the people who are suffering while the problem remains unsolved are the Arab Palestinians.

The Israelis cannot wash their hands of the responsibility the bear for the misery they daily visit upon the Palestinian people.

Yes they DO have some responsibility but attacking the very identity and heritage of the Jewish people themselves hardly seems to be the way to address that, in fact it sends a completely different message.

Viennese Jews do not belong to a different people to their fellow Austrians.

 

[Shusha]

The problem of the Zionist theft of Palestinian land and the half century of inhumane and illegal treatment of the Palestinian refugees by the Israeli occupation is not unsolvable.

As long as Israel is destroyed. Not. Going. To. Happen.