Ready for another war, kids?

[Jarhead]

Read this article...then go to the list of precursors that can be used...and look up their haolf life's..

Seriously Syria. Sarin? | Laboratory of Hidden Alternatives

I checked one in the middle which has a half life of 140 years.....

I've looked at that list and some of them are precursors to the precursors to the precursors.

For example, Triethyl phosphite

Synthetic routes for the synthesis of [14C] sarin and related nerve agents are described. Triethyl phosphite and [14C] methyl iodide are reacted in the Michaelis–Arbusov reaction to produce diethyl methyl phosphonate which is converted to methylphosphonic acid by hydrolysis. After chlorination and subsequent fluorination the final product is formed by reaction with the appropriate alcohol.

Triethyl phosphite is commercially available and is not a restricted substance under the Chemical Weapons Convention.

.

informative..yes....pertinant to the debate? I dont see how.

The point is....the use of Sarin in a weapon is possible well after it is developed..and the half life is not proof that the Sarin and accompanying weapons did nto come from Iraq ten years ago.

 

[Si modo]

Sarin itself has a shelf life of just a few weeks.

Keeping the precursors separate provides a shelf life of about 5 years:

Nations stockpiling sarin have tried to overcome the problem of its short shelf life in three ways. One way is to lengthen the shelf life of unitary (pure) sarin by increasing the purity of the precursor and intermediate chemicals and refining the production process. Another way to increase shelf life is by incorporating a stabilizer chemical. Initially used was tributylamine, but later this was replaced by diisopropylcarbodiimide (DIC), which allowed for sarin to be stored in aluminum casings. Finally, stockpiling of sarin can be improved by developing binary chemical weapons, where the two precursor chemicals are stored separately in the same shell, and mixed to form the agent immediately before or when the shell is in flight. This approach has the dual benefit of making the issue of shelf life irrelevant and greatly increasing the safety of sarin munitions. However, experts do not put the shelf life of this type of weapon past 5 years.

Sarin - New World Encyclopedia





The invasion of Iraq was nearly 10 years ago, people.


.

That's why Saddam used bicomponent sarin shells.

 

[g5000]

Again, there is no validity to the assumption Syria's precursor chemicals came from Iraq.

There are two precursors to sarin, one of which is a controlled substance under the Chemical Weapons Convention. Methylphosphonyl difluoride.

The other is simple rubbing alcohol, which obviously is not banned.

These two chemicals may be mixed in flight or just prior to use to create sarin.

The shelf life of methylphosphonyl difluoride is five years, according to experts, and I have provided the link.


If Saddam Hussein had methylphosphonyl difluoride, which he likely did, it would be extremely unlikely it is being used by Syria ten years later.



Methylphosphonyl difluoride can be manufactured from substances which are commercially available. Those would not have to be smuggled out of Iraq and into Syria. They can be bought openly any time.

So again, very unlikely Syria got its chemical weapons components from Saddam.

If Syria does not have the technical ability to make methylphosphonyl difluoride, then I would look to Iran or Egypt as the source.


.

 

[Wacky Quacky]

Read this article...then go to the list of precursors that can be used...and look up their haolf life's..

Seriously Syria. Sarin? | Laboratory of Hidden Alternatives

I checked one in the middle which has a half life of 140 years.....

I've looked at that list and some of them are precursors to the precursors to the precursors.

For example, Triethyl phosphite

Synthetic routes for the synthesis of [14C] sarin and related nerve agents are described. Triethyl phosphite and [14C] methyl iodide are reacted in the Michaelis–Arbusov reaction to produce diethyl methyl phosphonate which is converted to methylphosphonic acid by hydrolysis. After chlorination and subsequent fluorination the final product is formed by reaction with the appropriate alcohol.

Triethyl phosphite is commercially available and is not a restricted substance under the Chemical Weapons Convention.

.

informative..yes....pertinant to the debate? I dont see how.

The point is....the use of Sarin in a weapon is possible well after it is developed..and the half life is not proof that the Sarin and accompanying weapons did nto come from Iraq ten years ago.

Nor is it proof that they did. So, instead of making the same mistake we did last time and going in guns blazing without knowing the full story, let's wait and be patient for the whole story.

 

[Sallow]

Actually...it is logic that tells us......the WMD's went somewhere...

Where do you think they went?

You guys are funny.

Iraq somehow had massive amounts of WMDs after what? 2 or three wars and constant bombings?

Then, instead of using them to defend themselves against the biggest invasion in their history..they move them to Syria.

Yeah..that makes a whole lot of sense.

Another "non military" genius.

FYI...taking the capital of a country requires very few boots on the ground who would be affected by WMD's.....

The subsequent fighting of the spread out forces takes thousands of boots on the ground.

He knew he was going to lose his country...he tried to do exactly what happened....get the world to blame Bush for picking on an innocent man....it was his only chance of saving his dictatorship.

This is good.

Then what was the rationale for using them against Iran.

He knew he would be invaded and people would blame Rumsfeld for providing Iraq with those weapons?

 

[g5000]

Read this article...then go to the list of precursors that can be used...and look up their haolf life's..

Seriously Syria. Sarin? | Laboratory of Hidden Alternatives

I checked one in the middle which has a half life of 140 years.....

I've looked at that list and some of them are precursors to the precursors to the precursors.

For example, Triethyl phosphite

Synthetic routes for the synthesis of [14C] sarin and related nerve agents are described. Triethyl phosphite and [14C] methyl iodide are reacted in the Michaelis–Arbusov reaction to produce diethyl methyl phosphonate which is converted to methylphosphonic acid by hydrolysis. After chlorination and subsequent fluorination the final product is formed by reaction with the appropriate alcohol.

Triethyl phosphite is commercially available and is not a restricted substance under the Chemical Weapons Convention.

.

informative..yes....pertinant to the debate? I dont see how.

The point is....the use of Sarin in a weapon is possible well after it is developed..and the half life is not proof that the Sarin and accompanying weapons did nto come from Iraq ten years ago.

Shelf life. Not half life.


I have established the reasons why it is extremely unlikely the sarin precursors in Syria came from Iraq, and provided the evidence for those reasons.


The reason I am so persistent in this is because there are people on this board who make it a habit to state an assumption, and then when it is unchallenged, state it later as fact.

Hell, even after being challenged and debunked, they still state bullshit as fact.

I am nipping this sarin-from-Iraq bullshit assumption in the bud.

I am not optimistic it won't be stated as fact after today, though. The desire to believe all too often trumps evidence to the contrary.



.

 

[francoHFW]

OP, to review:

Nothing about Iraq.

OF COURSE everyone knows Iraq had chemical and biological weapons- Ronny Raygun helped with them and had no problem with their using them.

Now, what about those "mushroom clouds" Condi, Rummy, and Colin were talking about? That's what matters. WMDs my arse. RW goose chase...

 

[Vast LWC]

OP, to review:

Nothing about Iraq.

OF COURSE everyone knows Iraq had chemical and biological weapons- Ronny Raygun helped with them and had no problem with their using them.

Now, what about those "mushroom clouds" Condi, Rummy, and Colin were talking about? That's what matters. WMDs my arse. RW goose chase...

I say Reagan gave them to Syria too.

Why not? It's just as plausible as the OP.

 

[Si modo]

Again, there is no validity to the assumption Syria's precursor chemicals came from Iraq.

There are two precursors to sarin, one of which is a controlled substance under the Chemical Weapons Convention. Methylphosphonyl difluoride.

The other is simple rubbing alcohol, which obviously is not banned.

These two chemicals may be mixed in flight or just prior to use to create sarin.

The shelf life of methylphosphonyl difluoride is five years, according to experts, and I have provided the link.


If Saddam Hussein had methylphosphonyl difluoride, which he likely did, it would be extremely unlikely it is being used by Syria ten years later.



Methylphosphonyl difluoride can be manufactured from substances which are commercially available. Those would not have to be smuggled out of Iraq and into Syria. They can be bought openly any time.

So again, very unlikely Syria got its chemical weapons components from Saddam.

If Syria does not have the technical ability to make methylphosphonyl difluoride, then I would look to Iran or Egypt as the source.


.

The citation in your online encyclopedia indicates otherwise on the shelf life

THE TWO PRECURSOR CHEMICALS ARE STORED

SEPARATELY AND ONLY MIXED TO FORM THE

CHEMICAL AGENT IMMEDIATELY BEFORE OR

WHEN THE ROUND IS IN FLIGHT. THUS, THE

SHELF LIFE OF THE AGENT BECOMES IRRELEVANT;

MOREOVER, THE MUNITION IS SAFER TO HANDLE

AND STORE. BY 1990 IRAQ HAD SUCCESSFULLY

TESTED 155-MM ARTILLERY SHELLS AND OTHER

BINARY MUNITIONS AND LAUNCHED A BALLISTIC

MISSILE WITH A BINARY WARHEAD AS WELL.







CIA HOLDS THAT THE STOCKS OF SARIN MAY

REMAIN VIABLE WELL BEYOND MARCH. CIA

ANALYSTS BELIEVE THAT THE SHELF LIFE PROBLEM

WAS ONLY TEMPORARY AND THAT THE IRAQIS

CAN NOW PRODUCE UNITARY AGENTS OF

SUFFICIENT QUALITY BY ADDING A STABILIZER OR

IMPROVING THE PRODUCTION PROCESS.







CIA ALSO BELIEVES THAT A SUBSTANTIAL

PORTION OF IRAQ'S NERVE AGENT STOCKPILE

NOW CONSISTS OF BINARY CHEMICAL WEAPONS

WHICH WOULD NOT BE SUBJECT TO

DEGRADATION.​

Subject: STABILITY OF IRAQ'S CW STOCKPILE

This expert concurs.

 

[francoHFW]

OP, to review:

Nothing about Iraq.

OF COURSE everyone knows Iraq had chemical and biological weapons- Ronny Raygun helped with them and had no problem with their using them.

Now, what about those "mushroom clouds" Condi, Rummy, and Colin were talking about? That's what matters. WMDs my arse. RW goose chase...

I say Reagan gave them to Syria too.

Why not? It's just as plausible as the OP.

Actually, proven fact vs. pure Pubcrappe...

 

[Jarhead]

I've looked at that list and some of them are precursors to the precursors to the precursors.

For example, Triethyl phosphite



Triethyl phosphite is commercially available and is not a restricted substance under the Chemical Weapons Convention.

.

informative..yes....pertinant to the debate? I dont see how.

The point is....the use of Sarin in a weapon is possible well after it is developed..and the half life is not proof that the Sarin and accompanying weapons did nto come from Iraq ten years ago.

Shelf life. Not half life.


I have established the reasons why it is extremely unlikely the sarin precursors in Syria came from Iraq, and provided the evidence for those reasons.


The reason I am so persistent in this is because there are people on this board who make it a habit to state an assumption, and then when it is unchallenged, state it later as fact.

Hell, even after being challenged and debunked, they still state bullshit as fact.

I am nipping this sarin-from-Iraq bullshit assumption in the bud.

I am not optimistic it won't be stated as fact after today, though. The desire to believe all too often trumps evidence to the contrary.



.

So you are doing exactlky what you complain others do...You are debunking something without knowing for sure it is worthy of debunking.

Hey...go for it....but then why complain when others do it?

 

[Jarhead]

You guys are funny.

Iraq somehow had massive amounts of WMDs after what? 2 or three wars and constant bombings?

Then, instead of using them to defend themselves against the biggest invasion in their history..they move them to Syria.

Yeah..that makes a whole lot of sense.

Another "non military" genius.

FYI...taking the capital of a country requires very few boots on the ground who would be affected by WMD's.....

The subsequent fighting of the spread out forces takes thousands of boots on the ground.

He knew he was going to lose his country...he tried to do exactly what happened....get the world to blame Bush for picking on an innocent man....it was his only chance of saving his dictatorship.

This is good.

Then what was the rationale for using them against Iran.

He knew he would be invaded and people would blame Rumsfeld for providing Iraq with those weapons?

Iran by no means had the air technology that we bring to the table. The only way Iran had a chance to conquer the capital is with troops ojn the ground.

With our air superiority, we can do exactly what we did......with few boots on the ground.

Eliminating the uter" forces was an issue....but we could have easily stayed in the capital and run the country if we desired......but we wanted to eliminate all supporters of Hussein...so we had to branch away from the capital...and when you do that with people that use children as human shields....you is gonna get your ass kicked...and we did.

 

[mal]

Obama warns Assad against chemical weapons use - Arlington Foreign Policy | Examiner.com

"Hope" so... Because the more things "Change"... The more they stay the same.

Edited to add this for the Liberals who have already come in and Continued the Lie that Saddam never had WMD:

Saddam had them... The UN Documented and Sealed 109 Facilities with Banned Long Range Missiles and WMD in them just before our Invasion...

They were "Missing" once we were done play Footsies with the Frogs and the UN.

Fact not Fiction.




peace...

Mal.

Syria's not some third world backwater when it comes to it's military.

They had and have more gear then Iraq.

They didn't need anything from Iraq.

Doesn't change anything I've Stated.



peace...

 

[Dick Tuck]

Sarin itself has a shelf life of just a few weeks.

Keeping the precursors separate provides a shelf life of about 5 years:

Nations stockpiling sarin have tried to overcome the problem of its short shelf life in three ways. One way is to lengthen the shelf life of unitary (pure) sarin by increasing the purity of the precursor and intermediate chemicals and refining the production process. Another way to increase shelf life is by incorporating a stabilizer chemical. Initially used was tributylamine, but later this was replaced by diisopropylcarbodiimide (DIC), which allowed for sarin to be stored in aluminum casings. Finally, stockpiling of sarin can be improved by developing binary chemical weapons, where the two precursor chemicals are stored separately in the same shell, and mixed to form the agent immediately before or when the shell is in flight. This approach has the dual benefit of making the issue of shelf life irrelevant and greatly increasing the safety of sarin munitions. However, experts do not put the shelf life of this type of weapon past 5 years.

Sarin - New World Encyclopedia





The invasion of Iraq was nearly 10 years ago, people.


.

That's why Saddam used bicomponent sarin shells.

Yet, not a single one of these shells was found after 2002, by either the UN inspectors or American invasion. Still can't admit that Bush lied us into that war, can you.

 

[Si modo]

Sarin itself has a shelf life of just a few weeks.

Keeping the precursors separate provides a shelf life of about 5 years:



Sarin - New World Encyclopedia





The invasion of Iraq was nearly 10 years ago, people.


.

That's why Saddam used bicomponent sarin shells.

Yet, not a single one of these shells was found after 2002, by either the UN inspectors or American invasion. Still can't admit that Bush lied us into that war, can you.

Well, that's not true.

 

[Charles_Main]

Obama warns Assad against chemical weapons use - Arlington Foreign Policy | Examiner.com

"Hope" so... Because the more things "Change"... The more they stay the same.



peace...

Can you quote the relevant part of your link which says this has anything to do with Iraq's "MISSING WMD", please?

Thanks.

.

did you miss the Satellite images we have of lines of trucks crossing from Iraq to Syria right before we invaded?

 

[francoHFW]

ZZZZZZZZZZ Everyone but Foxbots DID LOL

 

[Sallow]

Another "non military" genius.

FYI...taking the capital of a country requires very few boots on the ground who would be affected by WMD's.....

The subsequent fighting of the spread out forces takes thousands of boots on the ground.

He knew he was going to lose his country...he tried to do exactly what happened....get the world to blame Bush for picking on an innocent man....it was his only chance of saving his dictatorship.

This is good.

Then what was the rationale for using them against Iran.

He knew he would be invaded and people would blame Rumsfeld for providing Iraq with those weapons?

Iran by no means had the air technology that we bring to the table. The only way Iran had a chance to conquer the capital is with troops ojn the ground.

With our air superiority, we can do exactly what we did......with few boots on the ground.

Eliminating the uter" forces was an issue....but we could have easily stayed in the capital and run the country if we desired......but we wanted to eliminate all supporters of Hussein...so we had to branch away from the capital...and when you do that with people that use children as human shields....you is gonna get your ass kicked...and we did.

Um..do you even know what you are talking about?

Iraq attacked Iran..not the other way around.

And Iraq could have just as easily used chemical weapons against US forces as it did against Iran.

It didn't have them.

As it stood they were using outdated munitions to cobble together roadside bombs.

Most of the resistance in Iraq was made up of ex military that were disbanded as part of the brilliant invasion plan. They then looted weapons depots and that's when the party really got started.

 

[Si modo]

This is good.

Then what was the rationale for using them against Iran.

He knew he would be invaded and people would blame Rumsfeld for providing Iraq with those weapons?

Iran by no means had the air technology that we bring to the table. The only way Iran had a chance to conquer the capital is with troops ojn the ground.

With our air superiority, we can do exactly what we did......with few boots on the ground.

Eliminating the uter" forces was an issue....but we could have easily stayed in the capital and run the country if we desired......but we wanted to eliminate all supporters of Hussein...so we had to branch away from the capital...and when you do that with people that use children as human shields....you is gonna get your ass kicked...and we did.

Um..do you even know what you are talking about?

Iraq attacked Iran..not the other way around.

And Iraq could have just as easily used chemical weapons against US forces as it did against Iran.

It didn't have them.

As it stood they were using outdated munitions to cobble together roadside bombs.

Most of the resistance in Iraq was made up of ex military that were disbanded as part of the brilliant invasion plan. They then looted weapons depots and that's when the party really got started.

Ummm, yes, Iraq did have chemical weapons.

We found over 500 shells after invasion.

 

[elvis]

Bush said there were no weapons.