I think the belief that God created everything - which is to say the universe - is so grounded in the belief of Judaism, Christianity and Islam that it is ridiculous to argue they ever believed anything different.
Rational and logical observations why there can be NO god....
- Thread starter Baron Von Murderpaws
- Start date
Are you going to answer my question or is your worldview so full of holes that you have no answer to this question?
So God - who you say created heaven and earth - did not create the universe too?
Funny thing is that they all profess to believe in a future revelation. That time has come.
"So I fattened the flock for slaughter. Then I took two staffs, calling one Naom and the other Hobelim, and I fattened the flock. In one month I destroyed the three shepherds. Because I had lost patience with them, and they had come to abhor me."
It is no longer about Jewish, christian or muslim, believer or unbeliever.
I have created new earth, new firmament upon which people from all faiths, nations, and languages, including atheists can find common ground to stand upright and live in peace.
Apparently you are hell bent on being left behind.
So be it.
"Outside are dogs sorcerers murderers and all those who only love and practice deceit."
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Sure. Pay attention.
The marking of God's servants occurs between the breaking of the sixth and seventh seals securing the faithful from destruction...
This is not a drill.
I am paying attention. I know I am paying attention because I can tell you didn't tell me anything at all about the new earth you created; the new firmament upon which people from all faiths, nations, and languages, including atheists can find common ground to stand upright and live in peace.
Can you tell me more about the new world you created? How did you create it? What were the steps you took in creating this new world?
Iamartiewhitefox
VIP Member
- Aug 7, 2021
- 1,257
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God wants to be in our mind, allowing people to be their sexual selves with no one bothering them. God will not work ill to people.
If god is all knowing, then god knows the future and what will happen to each of us.
Therefore, there is no free will, as everything has been planned out.
If god has to PLAN everything out, then god is NOT omniscient, and therefore cannot BE a god.
God couldn't stop a murder of "his children" when there were supposedly only 4 people on earth.
If earthlings are supposed to be "god's special creatures", then the rest of the universe is wasted space.
If god wants nothing but praise from his creations, then why isn't the universe cram packed with planets of people worshiping??
Virgins cannot get pregnant. That would throw out all logistical concepts of science as we know it.
Isn't it weird how your god seems to agree with everything YOU say. And is it coincidental that all Christians claim their god disagrees with you, when THEY also disagree with you?
If you wrote a book with THAT many contradictions in it, filled with hypocrisy and double-dealing........the publisher would never publish it.
If humans are made in gods image, then why are we physical beings that all have different physical traits, colors, and emotions? We should be invisible entities that live forever and do as we please.
Most all of the lifeforms on this planet that have existed, have been wiped out for a very long time. How many "do overs" does god need?
"God does not exist because I SAID SO".
Don't like that? It's the SAME reasoning parents and preachers/priests give their kids that god does exist.
War. The Holocaust. (which should be enough in itself)
Reasons for god's existence given by believers are always based on personal opinions, never fact.
People who read the bible and practice what it "preaches", makes life WORSE for everyone else.
God worshipers screaming at the top of their lungs "YOU'RE GOING TO HELL" if you don't do EXACTLY as they SAY, EXACTLY as they DO, and believe in EXACTLY what they TELL you to believe in.
No civilized human being with a grain of humanity or sentience would ever do this to a fellow human being. This is something akin to what Hitler did.....and we all know how THAT turned out!!
Science vs Religion
So far:
Science facts - MILLIONS
Religious facts - 0
If god wants to talk to me, WHY the middleman? Why not just come down and talk to me in person? Why all the 'cloak and dagger'?
God worshipers have been claiming "Jesus is coming back" in their lifetime.........for centuries. It has never happened. Not once. To anybody. Anywhere.
"God works in mysterious ways" means
"shut up and go away, I don't have any answers for you".
When someone dies in an accident or is murdered, or suffers a death by disease.......the religious claim it is the will of their god. Not one single word about the devil....the one who is supposedly evil enough to kill, maim, and destroy for pleasure. But yet they claim their god did these dastardly deeds.....to his own "children" he supposedly loves?
Uh huh. Try again.
There sure seem to be a LOT of natural disasters happening in places that god's followers claim he loves.
When non-believer speaks to a believer, the supposed "Christian" spouts hate, animosity, bigotry, racism, and a dangerous psychotic tendency.
Christians pretend to be virtuous and noble inside the church.....but when outside the church, they are sanctimonious liars, cheats, frauds, and murderers.
There are more than 2500 different bibles on this planet, giving homage to 28,000,000 different gods.
If there is only ONE god, then WHY isn't there only ONE bible?
And WHY aren't all religious people worshiping this ONE god?
WHY is it that YOUR god is the only one that exists???
Will the REAL "slim shady" please stand up!!!!
We determine our future by how we are. God sees the results of our choices.
God stops murder living in our mind.
The rest of the universe is not waisted space. You have no idea what is out there. Imagine a sky with no stars in it. Ver4y dark. No depth perception. It would be a heavy dark thing above us.
Your idea of worship is not God's idea of worship. You think like Satan who wants people to admire that beings colorful beauty.
Angelic beings revere the Loving Lord God highly. All good things come from God.
God is beyond science. Science did not exist befor death.
You have no idea what a Christian is.
Numbers discrepancies will not loss the soul of anyone. You don't know scripture. A hypocrite destroys his neighbour with their mouth. You are going a step further trying to destroy God.
God has no blood in him visually seen. The unseen Father is in Jesus. The image is this: We look like Jesus who is the Father visually seen. That is what image means. Jesus wants to see his kind likeness in us.
The next time will be with light seen as fire to tyhe wicked. their fate will be d sealed befor that happens.
Church posers made the mess we see. How is there truth in them?
Jesus did not war. War occurred because of this; People did not hear what Jesus said, only hearing what Pontious Pilate said.
Fact: we kill, what we never made.
God's mind is not in they that preach. Money was never called very good by God. People are the only creatures who do that.
Hell is under the earth. That is where Jesus would have remained has jesus sinned. God's light will burn tyhe earth to the lowest depths, or lowest hell. Dead don't know anything.
Science versus Jamies 1:26 - 27? That is strange indeed.
God is fire to fallen beings in his glory.
Devils see God as being mysterious. God's mind is not in their mind.
God is life, not death. Time and chance happens to every man. Being ready before then is important.
Devils are snarling through people said to be Christen taking God's name in vain. Christ will not talk like they talk. They taught the world to think that we are not the Hunan race. You would think they would know that, knowing we haver one Father God.
You are not looking at Jesus when you see liars, cheaters, frauds and murderers. People who make fear giving laws are the same.
One voice is heard on all of those Bibles. None of them reads like the Muslims Quran.
Over protection. India is taking Ivermectin protecting them from Covid 19.
Colin norris
Platinum Member
- Apr 25, 2021
- 10,427
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- Banned
- #328
How arrogant vain and presumptuous of you to think you know all about some ridiculous God you have never seen, heard or interacted with ?
It's not good enough to be a normal believer. Oh no. You crank it up a bit so you appear a prophet. Who do you think you are kidding?
Fort Fun Indiana
Diamond Member
- Mar 10, 2017
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Ah, magical and evil. Perfect for Halloween.
What do we as Bible believing Christians accept as truth? Faith and the Bible must be based upon "evidence" and not blindly accepted as the secular humanists are always claiming.........FAITH IS BLIND and not based upon evidence. Read 1 Thess. 5:21, Acts 17:11, 1 John 4:1, John 8:32. In summary all agree, "Prove all things and hold fast that which is good.......".
God exists, and man can know with certainty that He exists by means of His revelations, both in nature and in the inspired revelation found in the Holy Bible. And....the Bible explains GOD as being singular in fact, there is only "1" and only "1" divine final authority as the Father God (Deut. 6:4, Isa. 45:5, James 2:19)...........However in "essence" the Bible clearly defines the Godhead as being "triune: being 3 in 1" "3" distinct persons within that "1" essence with in fact a triune essence. (Matt. 28:19, 2 Cor. 13:14). With each distinct person of the Godhead being and possessing a Divine nature.
The entire material universe was specially created by this almighty God in "6" days of approximately 24 hrs in duration, just as revealed in Genesis 1 and Genesis 20:11.
Both Biblical and Scientific evidences indicate 1. a relatively young earth in vast contrast to the pseudo science found to exist in Darwin's evolutionary theory that projects an age for the earth in the billions of years 2. while many of the earth's geographical features can be explained via a universal world wide flood event as recorded in the record of Noah. (Genesis 6:8).
Christianity as defined in the Bible is the "1" true religion (John 14:6) and Jesus is the only divine resurrected Son of the Living God and is the savior of the world (1 John 1:14)
Thus far along the entire length and breadth of this thread........no one has demonstrated any objective, testable, reproducible evidence to the contrary. What you will see all throughout this thread is nothing but ad hominem speculation, assumption, and conjectures based upon nothing but the philosophy called Theoretical Science. Its all based not upon the true application of science and the laws of physics but rather the content of the human mind. In other words its DOGMA and is in itself a form of religion based upon BLIND FAITH........as the theories of evolution have never resulted in an application of science proving evolution to be a LAW of PHYSICS.
Its like watching a dog chase its own tail...........or chasing an automobile down the highway.........what does he do if he ever catches it?
"Professing themselves to be wise they became fools..............." Romans 1:22
God exists, and man can know with certainty that He exists by means of His revelations, both in nature and in the inspired revelation found in the Holy Bible. And....the Bible explains GOD as being singular in fact, there is only "1" and only "1" divine final authority as the Father God (Deut. 6:4, Isa. 45:5, James 2:19)...........However in "essence" the Bible clearly defines the Godhead as being "triune: being 3 in 1" "3" distinct persons within that "1" essence with in fact a triune essence. (Matt. 28:19, 2 Cor. 13:14). With each distinct person of the Godhead being and possessing a Divine nature.
The entire material universe was specially created by this almighty God in "6" days of approximately 24 hrs in duration, just as revealed in Genesis 1 and Genesis 20:11.
Both Biblical and Scientific evidences indicate 1. a relatively young earth in vast contrast to the pseudo science found to exist in Darwin's evolutionary theory that projects an age for the earth in the billions of years 2. while many of the earth's geographical features can be explained via a universal world wide flood event as recorded in the record of Noah. (Genesis 6:8).
Christianity as defined in the Bible is the "1" true religion (John 14:6) and Jesus is the only divine resurrected Son of the Living God and is the savior of the world (1 John 1:14)
Thus far along the entire length and breadth of this thread........no one has demonstrated any objective, testable, reproducible evidence to the contrary. What you will see all throughout this thread is nothing but ad hominem speculation, assumption, and conjectures based upon nothing but the philosophy called Theoretical Science. Its all based not upon the true application of science and the laws of physics but rather the content of the human mind. In other words its DOGMA and is in itself a form of religion based upon BLIND FAITH........as the theories of evolution have never resulted in an application of science proving evolution to be a LAW of PHYSICS.
Its like watching a dog chase its own tail...........or chasing an automobile down the highway.........what does he do if he ever catches it?
"Professing themselves to be wise they became fools..............." Romans 1:22
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Fort Fun Indiana
Diamond Member
- Mar 10, 2017
- 120,137
- 124,248
- 3,645
Part of the con you YECers run is to tell the childish lie that you have evidence, and scientists have none. This, of course, is laughably absurd and would get you laughed out of any room not populated by small children or equivently brainwashed adultsWhat do we as Bible believing Christians accept as truth? Faith and the Bible must be based upon "evidence" and not blindly accepted as the secular humanists are always claiming.........FAITH IS BLIND and not based upon evidence. Read 1 Thess. 5:21, Acts 17:11, 1 John 4:1, John 8:32. In summary all agree, "Prove all things and hold fast that which is good.......".
God exists, and man can know with certainty that He exists by means of His revelations, both in nature and in the inspired revelation found in the Holy Bible. And....the Bible explains GOD as being singular in fact, there is only "1" and only "1" divine final authority as the Father God (Deut. 6:4, Isa. 45:5, James 2:19)...........However in "essence" the Bible clearly defines the Godhead as being "triune: being 3 in 1" "3" distinct persons within that "1" essence with in fact a triune essence. (Matt. 28:19, 2 Cor. 13:14). With each distinct person of the Godhead being and possessing a Divine nature.
The entire material universe was specially created by this almighty God in "6" days of approximately 24 hrs in duration, just as revealed in Genesis 1 and Genesis 20:11.
Both Biblical and Scientific evidences indicate 1. a relatively young earth in vast contrast to the pseudo science found to exist in Darwin's evolutionary theory that projects an age for the earth in the billions of years 2. while many of the earth's geographical features can be explained via a universal world wide flood event as recorded in the record of Noah. (Genesis 6:8).
Christianity as defined in the Bible is the "1" true religion (John 14:6) and Jesus is the only divine resurrected Son of the Living God and is the savior of the world (1 John 1:14)
Thus far along the entire length and breadth of this thread........no one has demonstrated any objective, testable, reproducible evidence to the contrary. What you will see all throughout this thread is nothing but ad hominem speculation, assumption, and conjectures based upon nothing but the philosophy called Theoretical Science. Its all based not upon the true application of science and the laws of physics but rather the content of the human mind. In other words its DOGMA and is in itself a form of religion based upon BLIND FAITH........as the theories of evolution have never resulted in an application of science proving evolution to be a LAW of PHYSICS.
Its like watching a dog chase its own tail...........or chasing an automobile down the highway.........what does he do if he ever catches it?
"Professing themselves to be wise they became fools..............." Romans 1:22
emilynghiem
Constitutionalist / Universalist
RE: OP Rational and logical observations why there can be NO god....
Thank you for a very comprehensive, detailed post of key common objections to how God is taught.
Answering these conflicting issues helps to understand what God and Jesus can and cannot mean, or else it would not make any sense at all. You are right about that, Toffeenut Baconsmuggler, and appear to be one of the Righteous Gentiles designed to think and argue in secular terms to establish truth and understanding through this dialogue "Socratic" / democratic process of answering grievances/objections until all points of conflict and contradiction are resolved. Good for you! I applaud and support you in seeking full resolution of each point you make that has valid reason and value to addressing it in full to your satisfaction.
Let me start with 3 to 5 points. Since these may branch out, I will assign each a letter per topic, then if they branch out we can number them A1 A2, B1 B2 B3 etc.
A1. God having supreme control authority knowledge and will so there is no such thing as free will.
A2. Therefore man has no responsibility if we cannot do anything to change what is already going to happen which makes no sense
B. Science is proven facts, religion has no facts proven. (I will contest two points:B1. Forgiveness and healing are faith based yet studies have shown these are correlated, and further medical studies can replicate demonstrations and documentation of spiritual healing therapy removing or reducing internal causes of mental, physical, criminal and social disorders and ills including patterns of abuse and addictions. B2. We can establish that all Religious systems contain common universal principles or patterns that reflect Natural laws and order B2a The Golden Rule of Reciprocity is commanded or presented in all Religions (except Constitutionalism that prescribes for Govt standards of "equal justice and protection of the laws" without requiring that people respect these standards equally, but by religious freedom people are free to find out and enforce the Golden Rule on their own when we figure out the empowerment we have by embodying and taking on the authority of govt by enforcing laws equally.) B2b. All religions have a 3 level hierarchy that reflects the same patterns as mind/body/spirit or individual-physical/psychological-relationship/collective-society that are Parallel/equivalent expressions of God/Jesus-Christ/Holy-Spirit or Collective Truth/Justice/Peace between individuals, groups and humanity as a whole.
Note: we cannot prove any of these systems but we can prove or establish by agreement the Existence of EQUIVALENT expressions in ALL religions or systems of Law. Constitutionalism also has Judicial, Legislative and Executive branches which correspond to individual physical actions and enforcing peace/security in society through the law enforcement and defense process, written contracts and laws that reflect consensual agreements in relationships for equal justice between people and groups through the legislative process, and establishing truth and justice as universal standard through the judicial process.
So for your point about disagreement and diversity over the "one God" I will label this point C.
C1. You Toffeenut Baconsmuggler argue that diverse representations of God and Religion negate there is one God or Jesus as Authority of Law over all.
C2. I argue as above that the diverse and individual/unique expressions of the SAME recurring patterns ALIGN with God/Jesus/HolySpirit and show the UNIVERSALITY and all inclusive patterns that every human being and group recognizes in different ways.
For point D, you say the churches/Christians are basically CORRUPT abusive hypocrites, or as @ Iamartiewhitefox stated: Jesus would not want war, and all the objections you state are clearly AGAINST the true meaning and point of Christian principles and practice.
I totally agree with BOTH of you. The false/corrupted practice and ABUSE of religion/religious authority cannot be the True God/Teaching. BreezeWood and GreatestIam have been arguing similar.
D1. You are basically arguing that Abuse/War is Antichrist
D2. I agree and explain more specifically Retributive Justice is Antichrist while Restorative Justice is the meaning and message of Christ Jesus.
Again Equal Justice and Peace for All Humanity to benefit is FAITH based and has never been proven scientifically to exist.
We cannot prove that which is faith based.
We can agree that all people and groups have a standard or system of Justice, so that Jesus ALIGNS with this level of Law governing Relations between people, groups, tribes/associations and nations.
So back to points about proving
1. Forgiveness correlates with healing mind body spirit relations by reducing or removing causes of ills in people/society
2. All systems have a common teaching of either equal justice and peace and or the Golden Rule
We can establish/prove agreement that these system align with Jesus/Justice by showing the correlation between
a. Forgiving differences/conflicts correlating with proportional ability to align and reconcile between different systems or groups
b. Unforgiveness and rejection correlating likewise with inability or failure to reconcile and to cause abuse, violence, crime, oppression and war instead of justice and peace by consensus
Toffeenut Baconsmuggler The best part about your presentation of objections is that you are forgiving and truly are driven to seek and establish truth. So we should be able to reconcile to this same degree you are able to forgive past faults and put the truth above all else.
If you were posting and arguing just to negate and reject, you would not be objective and so articulate but would be marred and obstructed from clarity by a personal injection of bias and agenda. But the clarity and wisdom in your post speaks to real respect for truth I have only found in a few people this serious about establishing rational and fact based truth in secular terms regarding what is taught in religion.
Thank you for this!
Let us publicly post these points and ask all other people/groups with similar or related objections to support a resolution/proof process
So we can all benefit in establishing common truth and understanding, universal across the board, while respecting and including cultural religious and political diversity in expression and affiliations in groups.
As for your first point about God's will:
Yes, God having supreme will does mean on some level we have no free will OUTSIDE those laws and limits. Nobody, not even God/Nature can cause a Butterfly to bear seeds that give life to an Elephant. That is against the Laws of Nature.
However within the Natural laws where we balance Freedom/Free Will/Choice with peace with others who have free choice/will within limits, we can choose the path of justice and peace, or injustice and war.
We can choose to ask help with FORGIVENESS in order to make peace and accept justice for both ourselves and others equally
Or we can REFUSE and keep Unforgiveness which obstructs healing correction and reconciliation.
Nobody not even God/Nature can force a single person to Forgive against our will. We have to agree by our free will built into the system of Natural and Spiritual/Collective laws
Once we agree to accept Forgiveness, then we can better reconcile our own "free will" with the higher laws and good will already in place that we as humans neither invented nor control.
We do not invent rules of gravity or laws of physics, but merely learn to express and communicate these self existing laws so we can work with and within these given laws/structures that govern relationships between mass, energy and actions.
Similar with Natural laws of democratic procress and spiritual or social connections between people, groups, institutions, nations and greater society or collective humanity.
Please review Points A B C D and also the three points of focus on proving Correlations.
Thank you Toffeenut Baconsmuggler and also Iamartiewhitefox
ding GreatestIam BreezeWood Grailhunter See Above
======
Thank you for a very comprehensive, detailed post of key common objections to how God is taught.
Answering these conflicting issues helps to understand what God and Jesus can and cannot mean, or else it would not make any sense at all. You are right about that, Toffeenut Baconsmuggler, and appear to be one of the Righteous Gentiles designed to think and argue in secular terms to establish truth and understanding through this dialogue "Socratic" / democratic process of answering grievances/objections until all points of conflict and contradiction are resolved. Good for you! I applaud and support you in seeking full resolution of each point you make that has valid reason and value to addressing it in full to your satisfaction.
Let me start with 3 to 5 points. Since these may branch out, I will assign each a letter per topic, then if they branch out we can number them A1 A2, B1 B2 B3 etc.
A1. God having supreme control authority knowledge and will so there is no such thing as free will.
A2. Therefore man has no responsibility if we cannot do anything to change what is already going to happen which makes no sense
B. Science is proven facts, religion has no facts proven. (I will contest two points:B1. Forgiveness and healing are faith based yet studies have shown these are correlated, and further medical studies can replicate demonstrations and documentation of spiritual healing therapy removing or reducing internal causes of mental, physical, criminal and social disorders and ills including patterns of abuse and addictions. B2. We can establish that all Religious systems contain common universal principles or patterns that reflect Natural laws and order B2a The Golden Rule of Reciprocity is commanded or presented in all Religions (except Constitutionalism that prescribes for Govt standards of "equal justice and protection of the laws" without requiring that people respect these standards equally, but by religious freedom people are free to find out and enforce the Golden Rule on their own when we figure out the empowerment we have by embodying and taking on the authority of govt by enforcing laws equally.) B2b. All religions have a 3 level hierarchy that reflects the same patterns as mind/body/spirit or individual-physical/psychological-relationship/collective-society that are Parallel/equivalent expressions of God/Jesus-Christ/Holy-Spirit or Collective Truth/Justice/Peace between individuals, groups and humanity as a whole.
Note: we cannot prove any of these systems but we can prove or establish by agreement the Existence of EQUIVALENT expressions in ALL religions or systems of Law. Constitutionalism also has Judicial, Legislative and Executive branches which correspond to individual physical actions and enforcing peace/security in society through the law enforcement and defense process, written contracts and laws that reflect consensual agreements in relationships for equal justice between people and groups through the legislative process, and establishing truth and justice as universal standard through the judicial process.
So for your point about disagreement and diversity over the "one God" I will label this point C.
C1. You Toffeenut Baconsmuggler argue that diverse representations of God and Religion negate there is one God or Jesus as Authority of Law over all.
C2. I argue as above that the diverse and individual/unique expressions of the SAME recurring patterns ALIGN with God/Jesus/HolySpirit and show the UNIVERSALITY and all inclusive patterns that every human being and group recognizes in different ways.
For point D, you say the churches/Christians are basically CORRUPT abusive hypocrites, or as @ Iamartiewhitefox stated: Jesus would not want war, and all the objections you state are clearly AGAINST the true meaning and point of Christian principles and practice.
I totally agree with BOTH of you. The false/corrupted practice and ABUSE of religion/religious authority cannot be the True God/Teaching. BreezeWood and GreatestIam have been arguing similar.
D1. You are basically arguing that Abuse/War is Antichrist
D2. I agree and explain more specifically Retributive Justice is Antichrist while Restorative Justice is the meaning and message of Christ Jesus.
Again Equal Justice and Peace for All Humanity to benefit is FAITH based and has never been proven scientifically to exist.
We cannot prove that which is faith based.
We can agree that all people and groups have a standard or system of Justice, so that Jesus ALIGNS with this level of Law governing Relations between people, groups, tribes/associations and nations.
So back to points about proving
1. Forgiveness correlates with healing mind body spirit relations by reducing or removing causes of ills in people/society
2. All systems have a common teaching of either equal justice and peace and or the Golden Rule
We can establish/prove agreement that these system align with Jesus/Justice by showing the correlation between
a. Forgiving differences/conflicts correlating with proportional ability to align and reconcile between different systems or groups
b. Unforgiveness and rejection correlating likewise with inability or failure to reconcile and to cause abuse, violence, crime, oppression and war instead of justice and peace by consensus
Toffeenut Baconsmuggler The best part about your presentation of objections is that you are forgiving and truly are driven to seek and establish truth. So we should be able to reconcile to this same degree you are able to forgive past faults and put the truth above all else.
If you were posting and arguing just to negate and reject, you would not be objective and so articulate but would be marred and obstructed from clarity by a personal injection of bias and agenda. But the clarity and wisdom in your post speaks to real respect for truth I have only found in a few people this serious about establishing rational and fact based truth in secular terms regarding what is taught in religion.
Thank you for this!
Let us publicly post these points and ask all other people/groups with similar or related objections to support a resolution/proof process
So we can all benefit in establishing common truth and understanding, universal across the board, while respecting and including cultural religious and political diversity in expression and affiliations in groups.
As for your first point about God's will:
Yes, God having supreme will does mean on some level we have no free will OUTSIDE those laws and limits. Nobody, not even God/Nature can cause a Butterfly to bear seeds that give life to an Elephant. That is against the Laws of Nature.
However within the Natural laws where we balance Freedom/Free Will/Choice with peace with others who have free choice/will within limits, we can choose the path of justice and peace, or injustice and war.
We can choose to ask help with FORGIVENESS in order to make peace and accept justice for both ourselves and others equally
Or we can REFUSE and keep Unforgiveness which obstructs healing correction and reconciliation.
Nobody not even God/Nature can force a single person to Forgive against our will. We have to agree by our free will built into the system of Natural and Spiritual/Collective laws
Once we agree to accept Forgiveness, then we can better reconcile our own "free will" with the higher laws and good will already in place that we as humans neither invented nor control.
We do not invent rules of gravity or laws of physics, but merely learn to express and communicate these self existing laws so we can work with and within these given laws/structures that govern relationships between mass, energy and actions.
Similar with Natural laws of democratic procress and spiritual or social connections between people, groups, institutions, nations and greater society or collective humanity.
Please review Points A B C D and also the three points of focus on proving Correlations.
Thank you Toffeenut Baconsmuggler and also Iamartiewhitefox
ding GreatestIam BreezeWood Grailhunter See Above
======
If god is all knowing, then god knows the future and what will happen to each of us.
Therefore, there is no free will, as everything has been planned out.
If god has to PLAN everything out, then god is NOT omniscient, and therefore cannot BE a god.
God couldn't stop a murder of "his children" when there were supposedly only 4 people on earth.
If earthlings are supposed to be "god's special creatures", then the rest of the universe is wasted space.
If god wants nothing but praise from his creations, then why isn't the universe cram packed with planets of people worshiping??
Virgins cannot get pregnant. That would throw out all logistical concepts of science as we know it.
Isn't it weird how your god seems to agree with everything YOU say. And is it coincidental that all Christians claim their god disagrees with you, when THEY also disagree with you?
If you wrote a book with THAT many contradictions in it, filled with hypocrisy and double-dealing........the publisher would never publish it.
If humans are made in gods image, then why are we physical beings that all have different physical traits, colors, and emotions? We should be invisible entities that live forever and do as we please.
Most all of the lifeforms on this planet that have existed, have been wiped out for a very long time. How many "do overs" does god need?
"God does not exist because I SAID SO".
Don't like that? It's the SAME reasoning parents and preachers/priests give their kids that god does exist.
War. The Holocaust. (which should be enough in itself)
Reasons for god's existence given by believers are always based on personal opinions, never fact.
People who read the bible and practice what it "preaches", makes life WORSE for everyone else.
God worshipers screaming at the top of their lungs "YOU'RE GOING TO HELL" if you don't do EXACTLY as they SAY, EXACTLY as they DO, and believe in EXACTLY what they TELL you to believe in.
No civilized human being with a grain of humanity or sentience would ever do this to a fellow human being. This is something akin to what Hitler did.....and we all know how THAT turned out!!
Science vs Religion
So far:
Science facts - MILLIONS
Religious facts - 0
If god wants to talk to me, WHY the middleman? Why not just come down and talk to me in person? Why all the 'cloak and dagger'?
God worshipers have been claiming "Jesus is coming back" in their lifetime.........for centuries. It has never happened. Not once. To anybody. Anywhere.
"God works in mysterious ways" means
"shut up and go away, I don't have any answers for you".
When someone dies in an accident or is murdered, or suffers a death by disease.......the religious claim it is the will of their god. Not one single word about the devil....the one who is supposedly evil enough to kill, maim, and destroy for pleasure. But yet they claim their god did these dastardly deeds.....to his own "children" he supposedly loves?
Uh huh. Try again.
There sure seem to be a LOT of natural disasters happening in places that god's followers claim he loves.
When non-believer speaks to a believer, the supposed "Christian" spouts hate, animosity, bigotry, racism, and a dangerous psychotic tendency.
Christians pretend to be virtuous and noble inside the church.....but when outside the church, they are sanctimonious liars, cheats, frauds, and murderers.
There are more than 2500 different bibles on this planet, giving homage to 28,000,000 different gods.
If there is only ONE god, then WHY isn't there only ONE bible?
And WHY aren't all religious people worshiping this ONE god?
WHY is it that YOUR god is the only one that exists???
Will the REAL "slim shady" please stand up!!!!
Last edited:
emilynghiem
Constitutionalist / Universalist
Hi Toffeenut Baconsmuggler
I tried to copy your original posts, but the browser on my phone keep cutting it off.
I want to pick 2 or 3 points to resolve in the Bull Ring and narrow this down to what can be posted publicly online and on FB to resolve and establish a standard agreement on how to teach God Jesus the Bible and Christianity to be consistent with secular logic and science that is replicable, quantifiable and demonstratable.
First
I. Can we agree that FALSE practice and arguments are separate from practice and explanations of Christian principles that are positive ethical and consistent
A. Hypocrisy, abuse, corruption just shows those practices are false. Just like fraudulent malpractice in medicine does not negate all medical science, which when used correctly EXPOSES and CORRECTS/PREVENTS fraud/abuse by establishing/enforcing best practices and standards.
B. Just saying "because I said so" or "the Bible states this" does not connote proof except to the person already holding those beliefs, so it is preaching to the choir. This does not make/prove anything true or false but is an expression of that person's beliefs. We can use it to prove what that person believes and how they naturally express it.
II. Diversity in expressing God's laws or beliefs about God and Universal laws.
A. You argue not everyone believes in or agrees with the one God or Bible in Christianity assuming this means it is false and not the one truth.
B. I argue that the diversity is part of the design and man is naturally unique individually and diverse in expression / understanding that is RELATIVE to each person's circumstance and experiences that are unique.
The interpretations of the Bible are going to be different because each person/group is different .
But I argue the message is the same: the Bible represents the PROCESS of all humanity collectively and individually coming to maturity to live by Peace and Justice by agreeing to receive and establish universal Truth.
So the PROCESS is universal to all humanity, but the Language and Experience/Expression of realizing Truth Justice and Peace for each person, group, nation, generation, cultural identity, and humanity/society collectively is going to be diverse and different for each perspective.
Justice is still universal, and I argue Jesus represents Universal Justice bringing peace and healing to all humanity. By overcoming the very ills you and others point out as against Common Truth Ethics Morals Humanity Christianity etc.
III. As for God's will being supreme where man has no free will:
This is like the laws of science, health and nature.
If we violate good healthy practices by exposing ourselves to radioactive carcinogenous factors, are we then helpless to stop dying from cancer?
Do the laws of science prevent us from practicing smarter choices?
We cannot change the fact that exposure to radiation causes cancer, death or other damage to health.
We can learn the laws of cause and effect to live in harmony and better health and balance, and avoid imbalance or disruption/disorder that causes disease and death.
Similar with the collective laws that Religious systems express and teach.
If we live by the Golden Rule, we learn how to establish equal Justice and Peace between ourselves and others.
All systems teach this in order to communicate common standards between members of that group, community or affiliation.
What Christianity teaches that is central to all other laws, and diverse ways of expressing laws for a regional or tribal community, is
* Forgiving others invokes Forgiveness, and this allows
* Mutual Correction and Healing to RESTORE justice/peace/good faith relations between neighbors, and
thus
* collectively all people benefit by establishing Universal Truth Justice and Peace
This does NOT require converting people to seeing God/the Bible the same way.
Those who believe in a personfied God can experience God that way.
Secular people who receive truth through proven science receive knowledge understanding and concepts/principles that way.
All people being culturally diverse and individually unique will continue to process and experience information in our own natural / native ways.
What changes is our perception of each other, different ways and groups, that do not need to be in conflict just because we don't do, see or say things the sanevway.
The real God/Jesus must be Universal to all in order to fulfill the meaning of being the one for all humanity.
Negating and exposing all the false / contradictory points does not defeat the point behind religions but fulfills them by correcting or eliminating false practices and only leaving the right ways of teaching them which are consistent universal and ethical/beneficial for all.
Are you okay with these 3 points, or do we need to address any in the BullRing?
Thank you Toffeenut Baconsmuggler
I tried to copy your original posts, but the browser on my phone keep cutting it off.
I want to pick 2 or 3 points to resolve in the Bull Ring and narrow this down to what can be posted publicly online and on FB to resolve and establish a standard agreement on how to teach God Jesus the Bible and Christianity to be consistent with secular logic and science that is replicable, quantifiable and demonstratable.
First
I. Can we agree that FALSE practice and arguments are separate from practice and explanations of Christian principles that are positive ethical and consistent
A. Hypocrisy, abuse, corruption just shows those practices are false. Just like fraudulent malpractice in medicine does not negate all medical science, which when used correctly EXPOSES and CORRECTS/PREVENTS fraud/abuse by establishing/enforcing best practices and standards.
B. Just saying "because I said so" or "the Bible states this" does not connote proof except to the person already holding those beliefs, so it is preaching to the choir. This does not make/prove anything true or false but is an expression of that person's beliefs. We can use it to prove what that person believes and how they naturally express it.
II. Diversity in expressing God's laws or beliefs about God and Universal laws.
A. You argue not everyone believes in or agrees with the one God or Bible in Christianity assuming this means it is false and not the one truth.
B. I argue that the diversity is part of the design and man is naturally unique individually and diverse in expression / understanding that is RELATIVE to each person's circumstance and experiences that are unique.
The interpretations of the Bible are going to be different because each person/group is different .
But I argue the message is the same: the Bible represents the PROCESS of all humanity collectively and individually coming to maturity to live by Peace and Justice by agreeing to receive and establish universal Truth.
So the PROCESS is universal to all humanity, but the Language and Experience/Expression of realizing Truth Justice and Peace for each person, group, nation, generation, cultural identity, and humanity/society collectively is going to be diverse and different for each perspective.
Justice is still universal, and I argue Jesus represents Universal Justice bringing peace and healing to all humanity. By overcoming the very ills you and others point out as against Common Truth Ethics Morals Humanity Christianity etc.
III. As for God's will being supreme where man has no free will:
This is like the laws of science, health and nature.
If we violate good healthy practices by exposing ourselves to radioactive carcinogenous factors, are we then helpless to stop dying from cancer?
Do the laws of science prevent us from practicing smarter choices?
We cannot change the fact that exposure to radiation causes cancer, death or other damage to health.
We can learn the laws of cause and effect to live in harmony and better health and balance, and avoid imbalance or disruption/disorder that causes disease and death.
Similar with the collective laws that Religious systems express and teach.
If we live by the Golden Rule, we learn how to establish equal Justice and Peace between ourselves and others.
All systems teach this in order to communicate common standards between members of that group, community or affiliation.
What Christianity teaches that is central to all other laws, and diverse ways of expressing laws for a regional or tribal community, is
* Forgiving others invokes Forgiveness, and this allows
* Mutual Correction and Healing to RESTORE justice/peace/good faith relations between neighbors, and
thus
* collectively all people benefit by establishing Universal Truth Justice and Peace
This does NOT require converting people to seeing God/the Bible the same way.
Those who believe in a personfied God can experience God that way.
Secular people who receive truth through proven science receive knowledge understanding and concepts/principles that way.
All people being culturally diverse and individually unique will continue to process and experience information in our own natural / native ways.
What changes is our perception of each other, different ways and groups, that do not need to be in conflict just because we don't do, see or say things the sanevway.
The real God/Jesus must be Universal to all in order to fulfill the meaning of being the one for all humanity.
Negating and exposing all the false / contradictory points does not defeat the point behind religions but fulfills them by correcting or eliminating false practices and only leaving the right ways of teaching them which are consistent universal and ethical/beneficial for all.
Are you okay with these 3 points, or do we need to address any in the BullRing?
Thank you Toffeenut Baconsmuggler
If god is all knowing, then god knows the future and what will happen to each of us.
Therefore, there is no free will, as everything has been planned out.
If god has to PLAN everything out, then god is NOT omniscient, and therefore cannot BE a god.
God couldn't stop a murder of "his children" when there were supposedly only 4 people on earth.
If earthlings are supposed to be "god's special creatures", then the rest of the universe is wasted space.
If god wants nothing but praise from his creations, then why isn't the universe cram packed with planets of people worshiping??
Virgins cannot get pregnant. That would throw out all logistical concepts of science as we know it.
Isn't it weird how your god seems to agree with everything YOU say. And is it coincidental that all Christians claim their god disagrees with you, when THEY also disagree with you?
If you wrote a book with THAT many contradictions in it, filled with hypocrisy and double-dealing........the publisher would never publish it.
If humans are made in gods image, then why are we physical beings that all have different physical traits, colors, and emotions? We should be invisible entities that live forever and do as we please.
Most all of the lifeforms on this planet that have existed, have been wiped out for a very long time. How many "do overs" does god need?
"God does not exist because I SAID SO".
Don't like that? It's the SAME reasoning parents and preachers/priests give their kids that god does exist.
War. The Holocaust. (which should be enough in itself)
Reasons for god's existence given by believers are always based on personal opinions, never fact.
People who read the bible and practice what it "preaches", makes life WORSE for everyone else.
God worshipers screaming at the top of their lungs "YOU'RE GOING TO HELL" if you don't do EXACTLY as they SAY, EXACTLY as they DO, and believe in EXACTLY what they TELL you to believe in.
No civilized human being with a grain of humanity or sentience would ever do this to a fellow human being. This is something akin to what Hitler did.....and we all know how THAT turned out!!
Science vs Religion
So far:
Science facts - MILLIONS
Religious facts - 0
If god wants to talk to me, WHY the middleman? Why not just come down and talk to me in person? Why all the 'cloak and dagger'?
God worshipers have been claiming "Jesus is coming back" in their lifetime.........for centuries. It has never happened. Not once. To anybody. Anywhere.
"God works in mysterious ways" means
"shut up and go away, I don't have any answers for you".
When someone dies in an accident or is murdered, or suffers a death by disease.......the religious claim it is the will of their god. Not one single word about the devil....the one who is supposedly evil enough to kill, maim, and destroy for pleasure. But yet they claim their god did these dastardly deeds.....to his own "children" he supposedly loves?
Uh huh. Try again.
There sure seem to be a LOT of natural disasters happening in places that god's followers claim he loves.
When non-believer speaks to a believer, the supposed "Christian" spouts hate, animosity, bigotry, racism, and a dangerous psychotic tendency.
Christians pretend to be virtuous and noble inside the church.....but when outside the church, they are sanctimonious liars, cheats, frauds, and murderers.
There are more than 2500 different bibles on this planet, giving homage to 28,000,000 different gods.
If there is only ONE god, then WHY isn't there only ONE bible?
And WHY aren't all religious people worshiping this ONE god?
WHY is it that YOUR god is the only one that exists???
Will the REAL "slim shady" please stand up!!!!
lol.... Right,says the guy who is so egocentric that he can't even imagine the possibility that bronze age tent dwelling nomads including their dedicated first century descendants could have written things that go whoosh right over your narrow minded, scientifically befuddled, little head.
Fort Fun Indiana
Diamond Member
- Mar 10, 2017
- 120,137
- 124,248
- 3,645
Hmm, no, you give yourself and iron aged, ignorant, terrified, superstitious, illiterate people FAR too much credit. Buy I guess that should be expected, when you think they knew magical truths and you think you have puzzled them out via countless hours of equivocation and retrofitting.
There is nothing magical about sorcery, the magical arts, what we call mind control, MKUltra, etc.
Its science man!
And there is nothing magical about a talking serpent, the Nachash, which in hebrew is both a noun and an adjective meaning, serpent, brazen, shiny one, and or one who practices divination,the magical arts, sorcery, what we call mind control. The stars of antiquity.
This is no magical truth, This is the actual truth. There has been a worldwide plague of talking serpents let loose in every nation since way before you or the authors of scripture were born. You just call them snake oil salesmen, religious fanatics, conmen, charlatans, or politicians.
The Nachash comes in many guises.
You are nothing more than a gesticulating witch doctor in the jungle without a clue proudly wearing the worn out phrase "magical bullshit" in vain like an ornamental bone in your nose.
Your very own disturbing yet tailor made disguise.
Last edited:
Fort Fun Indiana
Diamond Member
- Mar 10, 2017
- 120,137
- 124,248
- 3,645
Haha, sure. Not magic. Seems like I am not the one who has to spend hours equivocation and putting words in just the right order to basically say nothing and to attempt to beguile in a manner that should only work on small children.
Cut the crap. I speak truth. I have been throwing spare change at you for some time now. I have seen you walk away with some coins squirreled away in your cheeky pouches with my own eyes.
Who do you think you're fooling?
There's a huge logical hole in this very first sentence. First you assumed that we humans understand the nature of time while our science proved otherwise. No humans ever truly understood time, especially in terms of physics such as relativity and quantum physics. Hypothetically if time represents an axis, your point may make some sense if only God is living in the same time axis as humans. If God doesn't live in the same plane of the time axis, things are very different and go out of our human comprehension. Not only that, our concept of cause and effect is strictly based on our (wrong) concept of time. Cause and effect refers to how an event at a point of time (axis) affects another event at a later point of time, under the strict assumption that time is steadily going forward in a single axis where humans are living in. This assumption however, as put earlier, is never compatible with our known physics.
Moreover, omniscience is based off God's omnipotence, which says God has the ability to ignore you. It is within God's ability to choose to not to know you and what you do. This is the said situation in a permanent separation from God. God can (by His omnipotence) choose to not to know you when you are in hell. Similarly God's omnipresence is also based off His omnipotence. That is, He can (by ability) choose not to be present in hell with you. That's actually what a permanent separation means. He chooses not to know you and not to be with you, while your freewill still goes by its own. Freewill is thus an existence independent of God's foreknowledge. It goes by its own when God chooses not to know it, while it goes by its own when God chooses to know it.
The logic behind this is as simple as ABC are. How can you be saved if God talked to you while it is stated clearly in the covenant between God and man that humans need faith to be saved?
If on the other hand, God doesn't appear to any single human, then how can humans know that God exists and with a covenant granted and lawfully applied to both God and man?
If God appeared publicly or at an individual level to everyone, then humans as a whole are not savable by faith. If God doesn't show up at all, then humans have no way to know that such a covenant ever existed. The only way which works is for God to appear (and talk) to a group of pre-selected humans for their testimonies to be written down then for humans in majority to get to His truth by means of believing in faith! This is the only way (i.e., the Bible way) which works, there's no other way round.
Atheists have many questions. What they don't have is a functional brain to figure out the simplest (as what is said above).
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