there4eyeM
unlicensed metaphysician
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The one who defines "church" decides its inception.
Zone1 Protestants never tell you which Church in the world goes back in time to the Resurrection
- Thread starter 1miseryindex
- Start date
Depends on what you think "prevail" means. To me, in the end Jesus and His church will prevail. It is prophesied! I don't believe that a falling away into apostasy means that Satan prevails over Jesus. Jesus has the power to restore his church and in the end He prevails an destroys all wickedness from off the earth. Before the Catholic Church was ever organized, the Lord's true church had already fallen into apostasy. But the Lord would not be defeated and has already restored his church again upon the earth.
1miseryindex
Platinum Member
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- #43
The Catholic Church is Christ's Church. All others areman made... heretic made
kjw47
Gold Member
The most important thing is that Jesus promised to send holy spirit to guide his into ALL truth, not hundreds of different truths. Hundreds of different truths = a lack of holy spirit guidance.
kjw47
Gold Member
No, Jesus answered the pharisees honestly-He lived before Abraham, They twisted it into him saying he was God-He told them-your Father is the devil.
The Irish Ram
LITTLE GIRL / Ram Tough
And the thousands that Peter saved in his 15 year tenure at the Church of Jerusalem started right after Christ died? Do they have to go to hell too?
Stop with your deceit...
He took God's title for Himself. That's what you're ignoring.
kjw47
Gold Member
Actually God gave Jesus all authority-The titles came with that authority given to him. Jesus took nothing that wasn't given to him by his God and Father.
there4eyeM
unlicensed metaphysician
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"Acts speak louder than words", and in the book Acts we see the first churches. The only relation to Rome was that it may have ruled the world, but not the hearts and minds of Christians. All the gold, glory and gore of the R.C.C. has not brought it the universality its name would proclaim.
ninja007
Gold Member
Theological Heresies of the Transubstantial Eucharist
Rome’s doctrine of the transubstantial Eucharist, a) presents a perpetual re-sacrificing of Christ, and b) it deforms and confuses the incarnation of Christ.
First, the notion of the Eucharist as an ongoing sacrifice clearly,
Rome’s doctrine of the transubstantial Eucharist, a) presents a perpetual re-sacrificing of Christ, and b) it deforms and confuses the incarnation of Christ.
First, the notion of the Eucharist as an ongoing sacrifice clearly,
- Rejects any idea of a “once for all time” or “finished” atoning sacrifice accomplished by His perfect life and cross work.
- Rejects the sufficiency of the glorious cross work of Christ for both the forgiveness of sins and the averting of wrath due to us because of our sin.
- Rejects the notion that sinners are justified though the death of the Son and not according to works.
- Roman Catholicism and the Eucharist
ninja007
Gold Member
Note for example, the repetitious way Rome uses the terms such as “sacrifice,” “re-presents,” “propitiation” defining the effects of the Eucharist:
“The Mass is the same sacrifice as the sacrifice of the cross because in the Mass the victim is the same, and the principal priest is the same, Jesus Christ” (BC, vol. 2, Q. 360).
“The Eucharist is also a sacrifice” (CCC, 1365).
“The Eucharist is thus a sacrifice because it re-presents (makes present) the sacrifice of the cross” (CCC, 1366).
“The sacrifice of Christ and the sacrifice of the Eucharist are one single sacrifice,” (CCC, 1367).
The Eucharist, according to Rome, is propitiatory (i.e., forgiving sins and removing the wrath of God): “This sacrifice [Eucharist] is truly propitiatory” (CCC, 1367). “The Church intends the Mass to be regarded as a ‘true and proper sacrifice’” (The Catholic Encyclopedia, “Sacrifice of the Mass”; emphasis added).
Clearly, Rome sees the Eucharist as a “sacrifice,” which is offered through the hands of the priests: “The sacrifice of Christ the only Mediator, which in the Eucharist is offered through the priests’ hands” (CCC, 1369, also cf. 1414).
The Roman system of the transubstantial Eucharist is an insufficient sacrifice that is offered continuously by sinful Roman priests. This, clearly controverts and attacks the biblical presentation of the once for all time atoning accomplishment of Christ, as He Himself affirmed—“It is finished.” The Roman “Christ” is not able to save a sinner in and of Himself by grace alone through faith alone—apart from human efforts. Nor is the redemptive work of Christ in Romanism the very ground of the believer’s justification.
Biblically, a sinner is “declared” righteous before God not through works such as water baptism, nor through the sinful hands of the Roman priests in their representing the sacrifice of Christ at the Mass; rather it is through faith alone. Paul rightly says: “just as David also speaks of the blessing on the man to whom God credits righteousness apart from works” (Rom. 4:6) “Through the [one time] obedience [atoning work] of the One the many will be made righteous” (Rom. 5:19). Neither the church, Mary, Roman priests, nor anything or anyone can mediate between God and man. Only the two-natured person (God-man), Jesus Christ is able to be the Mediator:
“For there is one God, and one Mediator also between God and men, the man Christ Jesus, 6 who gave Himself as a ransom for all, the testimony given at the proper time” (1 Tim. 2:5-6).
“The Mass is the same sacrifice as the sacrifice of the cross because in the Mass the victim is the same, and the principal priest is the same, Jesus Christ” (BC, vol. 2, Q. 360).
“The Eucharist is also a sacrifice” (CCC, 1365).
“The Eucharist is thus a sacrifice because it re-presents (makes present) the sacrifice of the cross” (CCC, 1366).
“The sacrifice of Christ and the sacrifice of the Eucharist are one single sacrifice,” (CCC, 1367).
The Eucharist, according to Rome, is propitiatory (i.e., forgiving sins and removing the wrath of God): “This sacrifice [Eucharist] is truly propitiatory” (CCC, 1367). “The Church intends the Mass to be regarded as a ‘true and proper sacrifice’” (The Catholic Encyclopedia, “Sacrifice of the Mass”; emphasis added).
Clearly, Rome sees the Eucharist as a “sacrifice,” which is offered through the hands of the priests: “The sacrifice of Christ the only Mediator, which in the Eucharist is offered through the priests’ hands” (CCC, 1369, also cf. 1414).
The Roman system of the transubstantial Eucharist is an insufficient sacrifice that is offered continuously by sinful Roman priests. This, clearly controverts and attacks the biblical presentation of the once for all time atoning accomplishment of Christ, as He Himself affirmed—“It is finished.” The Roman “Christ” is not able to save a sinner in and of Himself by grace alone through faith alone—apart from human efforts. Nor is the redemptive work of Christ in Romanism the very ground of the believer’s justification.
Biblically, a sinner is “declared” righteous before God not through works such as water baptism, nor through the sinful hands of the Roman priests in their representing the sacrifice of Christ at the Mass; rather it is through faith alone. Paul rightly says: “just as David also speaks of the blessing on the man to whom God credits righteousness apart from works” (Rom. 4:6) “Through the [one time] obedience [atoning work] of the One the many will be made righteous” (Rom. 5:19). Neither the church, Mary, Roman priests, nor anything or anyone can mediate between God and man. Only the two-natured person (God-man), Jesus Christ is able to be the Mediator:
“For there is one God, and one Mediator also between God and men, the man Christ Jesus, 6 who gave Himself as a ransom for all, the testimony given at the proper time” (1 Tim. 2:5-6).
1miseryindex
Platinum Member
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That would be Jesus Christ, the Founder
1miseryindex
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- #53
It logical follows that: If Jesus established a Church and we know he did, and that Church is taken over by anti-Christs (which happened around 1958), many members of the Church will be led into error and then eventually into Hell... just as Satan planned.
That does not mean that the entire Church went asunder
What God has established on Earth, let no man put asunder... Woe unto those who try
kjw47
Gold Member
Because Catholicism=2Thess 2:3, all of her branches are included.
ninja007
Gold Member
On the contrary. Even a cursory reading of the New Testament will reveal that the Catholic Church does not have its origin in the teachings of Jesus or His apostles. In the New Testament, there is no mention of the papacy, worship/adoration of Mary (or the immaculate conception of Mary, the perpetual virginity of Mary, the assumption of Mary, or Mary as co-redemptrix and mediatrix), petitioning saints in heaven for their prayers, apostolic succession, the ordinances of the church functioning as sacraments, infant baptism, confession of sin to a priest, purgatory, indulgences, or the equal authority of church tradition and Scripture. So, if the origin of the Catholic Church is not in the teachings of Jesus and His apostles, as recorded in the New Testament, what is the true origin of the Catholic Church?
For the first 280 years of Christian history, Christianity was banned by the Roman Empire, and Christians were terribly persecuted. This changed after the “conversion” of the Roman Emperor Constantine. Constantine provided religious toleration with the Edict of Milan in AD 313, effectively lifting the ban on Christianity. Later, in AD 325, Constantine called the Council of Nicea in an attempt to unify Christianity. Constantine envisioned Christianity as a religion that could unite the Roman Empire, which at that time was beginning to fragment and divide. While this may have seemed to be a positive development for the Christian church, the results were anything but positive. Just as Constantine refused to fully embrace the Christian faith but continued many of his pagan beliefs and practices, so the Christian church that Constantine and his successors promoted progressively became a mixture of true Christianity and Roman paganism.
Following are a few examples:
Most Roman Catholic beliefs and practices regarding Mary are completely absent from the Bible. Where did those beliefs come from? The Roman Catholic view of Mary has far more in common with the Isis mother-goddess religion of Egypt than it does with anything taught in the New Testament. Interestingly, the first hints of Catholic Mariology occur in the writings of Origen, who lived in Alexandria, Egypt, which happened to be the focal point of Isis worship.
The Lord’s Supper being a consumption of the literal body and blood of Jesus is not taught in the Bible. The idea that bread and wine are miraculously transformed into the literal body and blood of Jesus (transubstantiation) is not biblical. However, several ancient pagan religions, including Mithraism, which was very popular in the Roman Empire, had some form of “theophagy” (the eating of one’s god) as a ritualistic practice.
Roman Catholicism has “saints” one can pray to in order to gain a particular blessing. For example, Saint Gianna Beretta Molla is the patron saint of fertility. Francis of Assisi is the patron saint of animals. There are multiple patron saints of healing and comfort. Nowhere is even a hint of this taught in Scripture. Just as the Roman pantheon of gods had a god of love, a god of peace, a god of war, a god of strength, a god of wisdom, etc., so the Catholic Church has a saint who is “in charge” over each of these and many other categories. Many Roman cities had a god specific to the city, and the Catholic Church provided “patron saints” for cities as well.
The idea that the Roman bishop is the vicar of Christ, the supreme leader of the Christian Church, is utterly foreign to the Word of God. The supremacy of the Roman bishop (the papacy) was created with the support of the Roman emperors. While most other bishops (and Christians) resisted the idea of the Roman bishop being supreme, the Roman bishop eventually rose to supremacy, again, due to the power and influence of the Roman emperors. After the western half of the Roman Empire collapsed, the popes took on the title that had previously belonged to the Roman emperors—Pontifex Maximus.
Many more examples could be given. These four should suffice in demonstrating the origin of the Catholic Church. Of course, the Roman Catholic Church denies the pagan origin of its beliefs and practices. The Catholic Church disguises its pagan beliefs under layers of complicated theology and church tradition. Recognizing that many of its beliefs and practices are utterly foreign to Scripture, the Catholic Church is forced to deny the authority and sufficiency of Scripture.
there4eyeM
unlicensed metaphysician
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The basis for the claim of the R.C.C.'s supremacy is the R.C.C.'s interpretation of the R.C.C.'s version of history.
1miseryindex
Platinum Member
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- #57
JWs have a different bible
I know this for a fact.
So one has to be careful which Bible one has
And Yeshua LOWERED Himself to become a man first, then God gave Him back what He already had.
John 17:
5 And now, Father, glorify me in your presence with the glory I had with you before the world began.
Christ's church is all those who worship Him. The name on the door is irrelevant.
1miseryindex
Platinum Member
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- #60
The original Church would of necessity HAVE to go back to the Beginning, to the time of the Ascension. Only the Catholic Church can be traced back that far.
The early Church fathers spoke of Eucharist
the Real Presence
Confession to a priest
and other Catholic terms
way back then..............
The early Church fathers spoke of Eucharist
the Real Presence
Confession to a priest
and other Catholic terms
way back then..............
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