Practicing religion without force

[AllieBaba]

You're welcome to consider my feelings as unreasonable. Marie did not and apologized to me. I agree she is respectful and kind. We're friends.

Honestly, the opinions we ought to be expressing on this thread should be the topic, not ad hominem.

Once again I ask you to return to the topic, drop your problem with me or work it out privately. I'm ready to drop this. If you want to hold a grudge against me there is nothing I can do about that.

Bye.

She apologized to you because she is a nice person, she exemplified her Christian beliefs. Perhaps you should be offended by that as well?

Marie is a sensitive person and she cares about other peoples feelings. She does not intend to be hurtful. I feel she has wonderful qualities which obviously arise in her from her Christian beliefs.

I am not offended by that. Don't continue to look for offense in every post of mine just because I expressed it once.

Please drop this vendetta.

Ironic post of the decade.

 

[Sky Dancer]

Forced conversion. It happens today with Islamic extremists. It happened in the past with Christianization of pagans during the Roman Empire. The Baptist Church of Tripura encouraged the murder of Hindus. The Assam Times reported that the Manmasi Christian Army tried to force the conversion of Hindus to Christianity.

In Burma, the military dictator there tried to force Muslims and Hindus to convert to Buddhism as a form of ethnic cleansing.
Forced conversion - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Clearly, none of us are interested in forced conversion. There are more subtle ways that religions use force. I'm thinking of Warren Jeffs, the polygamist.

Your thoughts?

 

[Sky Dancer]

No.

Every post to me you end with the blow off You're welcome to think whatever you want

I am not assuming you're closed minded, I am observing it.

Let's see if I get this right. You're not interested in discussing the topic of the thread. For that you call me close minded?

You're off topic with that book.

Wrong, the book was very Zen. As was my post a few back.

You started a thread to seek affirmation for what you mistook as a brilliant thought. Almost immediately was made clear that Practicing religion without force was a misnomer as you were addressing it.

What you succeeded in doing was letting your baggage bog down the thread and cry foul each and everytime that was addressed.

Most posts were designed to be of help some were snarky true, but that aside you only are open to what you want to hear.

Again, not very Buddhist

If you don't mind my asking, how old are you?

I'm not a Zen Buddhist. I'm a Tibetan Vajrayana Buddhist. Perhaps you are more familiar with Zen Buddhists who practice Hinayana. Their practices suppress emotions. Vajrayana allow the emotions to be present and we behave naturally, not in some kind of contrived way. My emotions are evident to all and not suppressed. We work differently with our minds and hearts in the Vajrayana.

My age is none of your business and is irrelevant to the topic of practicing religon without force.

You have some interesting ideas about Buddhists. You think we're not supposed to be human and have ordinary feelings like anyone else. That's a misconception. What we train to do in my lineage is to sit with feelings and allow them to dissolve on their own.

Clearly, I didn't do that when I publically announced that my feelings were hurt and I felt offended. What I missed an opportunity to do was just sit with it until it passed. In retrospect, I would do it differently now. I should have contacted Marie privately with my feelings so that all of you would be more at ease.

How it works for me is I set my aspirations each day for what I want to work on and then at the end of the day I evaluate how it went. I rejoice when I act skillfully and I regret and vow to do better when I act unskillfully.

Heavy duty punishment is a Christian concept, not a Buddhist one. We aren't punishing to ourselves for our humanness.

I'm open to hearing your view. Clearly, you all think I'm a terrible person and a very bad Buddhist.

I can live with that.

 

[Newby]

She apologized to you because she is a nice person, she exemplified her Christian beliefs. Perhaps you should be offended by that as well?

Marie is a sensitive person and she cares about other peoples feelings. She does not intend to be hurtful. I feel she has wonderful qualities which obviously arise in her from her Christian beliefs.

I am not offended by that. Don't continue to look for offense in every post of mine just because I expressed it once.

Please drop this vendetta.

Ironic post of the decade.

Amen.

 

[AllieBaba]

Based upon your own commentary and behavior, Sky. It's not like everybody picks on you randomly.

 

[Newby]

No, I don't think it is. Some people think I talk too much about Buddhism and they perceive that as proselytizing. Even you thought I was preaching when I posted a poem about Jesus written by a Christian writer I enjoy. I was surprised because I thought Christians would enjoy it too, not be as offended as you were.

If I tried to convert ANYONE here to Buddhism the Christian posters would be up in arms and I would hear about it plenty. Especially if the Christian I was trying to convert indicated hurt and offensive and I blew them off the way you blew me off. Why? Because Christianity is the majority religion in America, and Christians seem to feel that any non-christian questioning their beliefs or political activities are 'bashing' Christians.

Let's get back to the topic. This whole issue is not about me and marie, because we worked it out days ago. It's about your personal problem with me.

That's the kind of the thing best worked out off the public boards.

See ya.

Sky

That was sarcasm Sky, meant to show how ridiculous your being 'offended' by something that wasn't remotely offensive is.

My feeling of being offended was short lived. It arose, I expressed it, Marie and I worked it out, I dropped it.

Your reaction to my feelings has been going on for days. Which of us is being ridiculous?

So, what exactly was the point of you expressing your 'offended sensiblities'? Wasn't it to stop Marie from posting what she wishes, or to make her feel guilty for expressing the beautiful opinions that she expressed in her post, therefore perhaps controling what she chooses to post in the future? Why do you feel the need to control what others post? Why should she curtail what she wants to post because you might find it offensive? Are you more important than anyone else on here who may have enjoyed reading her post?

Perhaps you should examine your own motives, I think they're very selfish personally.

 

[AllieBaba]

It was to stop her posting. My guess is it was accompanied by a neg rep and probably a veiled threat or the standard "stop harassing me" pm that Sky employs when she wants another poster to stop reacting to her obnoxious comments. Sky can't win arguments so she lies about her "fear".

 

[Sky Dancer]

Forced religion is compulsory religion. As a child I had no choice but to attend a Catholic school, pray everyday, go to confession and mass every week. I went to Catholic camp in the summer, and I lived in a Catholic Charities foster home.

How Catholicism was presented to me as a child was harmful. It's just the way I was raised and how the religion was misused to justify abuse. It's natural that I would choose another path when I was free to.

That in no way reflects on the entire Catholic Church or all Catholics.

 

[AllieBaba]

Sorry, Sky, but given the way you cry "abuse" and "fear" every time someone responds strongly to anything you write, I don't believe anything was forced upon you.

I don't believe you know what force means, and you equate force and abuse with anything that prevents you from either doing, or being perceived as, exactly what you want.

Children have no rights except the right to be protected from harm and cared for. The rest they enjoy at the pleasure of their guardians. Children don't get to dictate to their parents how they should be raised. Not only that, but nobody gets to dictate to parents whether or not they teach their children their religion. Whether it's Catholicism, Islam, or anything else. You can put your weird spin on it all you like, but you're still just advocating for the removal of inalienable rights from Christians, no matter how you sugar coat it.

Sorry, you don't get to remove kids from the homes of Christians based on your own warped views of what SHOULD be taught to them. That's none of your business.

 

[AllieBaba]

I will stand by now while you state you are being abused, send me a neg rep with a rude lie attached, and then report me if I respond using the REPLY function.

 

[Sky Dancer]

That was sarcasm Sky, meant to show how ridiculous your being 'offended' by something that wasn't remotely offensive is.

My feeling of being offended was short lived. It arose, I expressed it, Marie and I worked it out, I dropped it.

Your reaction to my feelings has been going on for days. Which of us is being ridiculous?

So, what exactly was the point of you expressing your 'offended sensiblities'? Wasn't it to stop Marie from posting what she wishes, or to make her feel guilty for expressing the beautiful opinions that she expressed in her post, therefore perhaps controling what she chooses to post in the future? Why do you feel the need to control what others post? Why should she curtail what she wants to post because you might find it offensive? Are you more important than anyone else on here who may have enjoyed reading her post?

Perhaps you should examine your own motives, I think they're very selfish personally.

I think it would be wise for you to examine what is it that bugs you so much about what happened between me and Marie, which we have long ago settled.

Marie and I had a misunderstanding which we cleared up.

You've made a lot of assumptions about me, my character and my motives in this post which aren't accurate. They of course, are your perception which you are entitled to. I expressed my feelings for no other reason than I felt hurt.

I told Marie how I felt, in retrospect, I should have done it privately since it upset so many of you.

 

[AllieBaba]

You bug a lot of people, Sky. Dishonesty irritates the shit out of people.

 

[Sky Dancer]

Marie is a sensitive person and she cares about other peoples feelings. She does not intend to be hurtful. I feel she has wonderful qualities which obviously arise in her from her Christian beliefs.

I am not offended by that. Don't continue to look for offense in every post of mine just because I expressed it once.

Please drop this vendetta.

Ironic post of the decade.

Amen.

I don't have a vendetta, you do. I'm willing to drop this. You are not. I had a momentary arisal of hurt which I expressed and cleared with Marie.

I'm done with this side trip. If you want to discuss the topic and NOT me, let's do so.

 

[R.D.]

I'm not a Zen Buddhist. I'm a Tibetan Vajrayana Buddhist. Perhaps you are more familiar with Zen Buddhists who practice Hinayana. Their practices suppress emotions. Vajrayana allow the emotions to be present and we behave naturally, not in some kind of contrived way. My emotions are evident to all and not suppressed. We work differently with our minds and hearts in the Vajrayana.

I know almost nothing about Buddhists other than they are seeking personal enlightenment as a way of life. If you say I'm wrong I'm wrong

My age is none of your business and is irrelevant to the topic of practicing religon without force.

I thought so

You have some interesting ideas about Buddhists. You think we're not supposed to be human and have ordinary feelings like anyone else. That's a misconception. What we train to do in my lineage is to sit with feelings and allow them to dissolve on their own.

Again the only idea I have is that they seek peace through enlightenment. Very noble.

Clearly, I didn't do that when I publically announced that my feelings were hurt and I felt offended. What I missed an opportunity to do was just sit with it until it passed. In retrospect, I would do it differently now. I should have contacted Marie privately with my feelings so that all of you would be more at ease.

How it works for me is I set my aspirations each day for what I want to work on and then at the end of the day I evaluate how it went. I rejoice when I act skillfully and I regret and vow to do better when I act unskillfully.

Heavy duty punishment is a Christian concept, not a Buddhist one. We aren't punishing to ourselves for our humanness.

I'm open to hearing your view. Clearly, you all think I'm a terrible person and a very bad Buddhist.

I can live with that.

No you're not or you wouldn't be so defensive. I have no idea what makes a good or bad Buddhist, but if playing the victim a good one you've got that nailed.

As pointed out a bazillion times heavy duty punishment is not a christian concept. Again as far as the book posted it was addressing your issues with that misconception, about punishment and letting go of anger. Thats why I questioned your age, trying to understand exactly what your issues are is daunting based on your posts. But happiness and fulfillment based on your present lifestyle is not what comes across.

 

[syrenn]

I'm not a Zen Buddhist. I'm a Tibetan Vajrayana Buddhist. Perhaps you are more familiar with Zen Buddhists who practice Hinayana. Their practices suppress emotions. Vajrayana allow the emotions to be present and we behave naturally, not in some kind of contrived way. My emotions are evident to all and not suppressed. We work differently with our minds and hearts in the Vajrayana.

My age is none of your business and is irrelevant to the topic of practicing religon without force.

You have some interesting ideas about Buddhists. You think we're not supposed to be human and have ordinary feelings like anyone else. That's a misconception. What we train to do in my lineage is to sit with feelings and allow them to dissolve on their own.

Clearly, I didn't do that when I publically announced that my feelings were hurt and I felt offended. What I missed an opportunity to do was just sit with it until it passed. In retrospect, I would do it differently now. I should have contacted Marie privately with my feelings so that all of you would be more at ease.

How it works for me is I set my aspirations each day for what I want to work on and then at the end of the day I evaluate how it went. I rejoice when I act skillfully and I regret and vow to do better when I act unskillfully.

Heavy duty punishment is a Christian concept, not a Buddhist one. We aren't punishing to ourselves for our humanness.

I'm open to hearing your view. Clearly, you all think I'm a terrible person and a very bad Buddhist.

I can live with that.

Clearly you are mistaken. I dont think anyone thinks you are a "terrible person."

I do think that everyone sees that you feel free to offend but do not want to be offended.

The bit about always haveing your feelings hurt and or offended.... doing the whole PM discussion about your feelings being hurt so the whole appology thing can happen....IS a very passive aggressive from of aggression. It is playing the continual victim and an attempt at behavior modification of others toward you.

 

[Sky Dancer]

I'm not a Zen Buddhist. I'm a Tibetan Vajrayana Buddhist. Perhaps you are more familiar with Zen Buddhists who practice Hinayana. Their practices suppress emotions. Vajrayana allow the emotions to be present and we behave naturally, not in some kind of contrived way. My emotions are evident to all and not suppressed. We work differently with our minds and hearts in the Vajrayana.

I know almost nothing about Buddhists other than they are seeking personal enlightenment as a way of life. If you say I'm wrong I'm wrong

My age is none of your business and is irrelevant to the topic of practicing religon without force.

I thought so

You have some interesting ideas about Buddhists. You think we're not supposed to be human and have ordinary feelings like anyone else. That's a misconception. What we train to do in my lineage is to sit with feelings and allow them to dissolve on their own.

Again the only idea I have is that they seek peace through enlightenment. Very noble.

Clearly, I didn't do that when I publically announced that my feelings were hurt and I felt offended. What I missed an opportunity to do was just sit with it until it passed. In retrospect, I would do it differently now. I should have contacted Marie privately with my feelings so that all of you would be more at ease.

How it works for me is I set my aspirations each day for what I want to work on and then at the end of the day I evaluate how it went. I rejoice when I act skillfully and I regret and vow to do better when I act unskillfully.

Heavy duty punishment is a Christian concept, not a Buddhist one. We aren't punishing to ourselves for our humanness.

I'm open to hearing your view. Clearly, you all think I'm a terrible person and a very bad Buddhist.

I can live with that.

No you're not or you wouldn't be so defensive. I have no idea what makes a good or bad Buddhist, but if playing the victim a good one you've got that nailed.

As pointed out a bazillion times heavy duty punishment is not a christian concept. Again as far as the book posted it was addressing your issues with that misconception, about punishment and letting go of anger. Thats why I questioned your age, trying to understand exactly what your issues are is daunting based on your posts. But happiness and fulfillment based on your present lifestyle is not what comes across.

OK. Let's stay on topic. It's true that my ideas about Christianity come from my personal history of being a Catholic up until the age of 19. I also know about the Christians who are vocal in opposition to civil marriage equality for gays. AND I work with many Christians in my community and find them to be wonderful people.

In my experience, Christian beliefs were misused. Force was part of it. I had no choice as a child.

Buddhism really has helped me in so many ways. For one thing, it has no concept of sin, salvation, eternal hell or heaven. When my dad died, my Catholic roots were no help and I struggled until finding Buddhism.

I accept that I don't come across as universally peaceful about all topics. I am still working through a few things from my past, and with those I am vulnerable. Sometimes I am unable to access the inner resources I have.

The reason that 'religion without force' is an important topic to me is that because of my background I sympathize with others who've not been encouraged to question church authority or to ask questions and challenge church doctrine.

I hope this helps.

sky

 

[Sky Dancer]

I'm not a Zen Buddhist. I'm a Tibetan Vajrayana Buddhist. Perhaps you are more familiar with Zen Buddhists who practice Hinayana. Their practices suppress emotions. Vajrayana allow the emotions to be present and we behave naturally, not in some kind of contrived way. My emotions are evident to all and not suppressed. We work differently with our minds and hearts in the Vajrayana.

My age is none of your business and is irrelevant to the topic of practicing religon without force.

You have some interesting ideas about Buddhists. You think we're not supposed to be human and have ordinary feelings like anyone else. That's a misconception. What we train to do in my lineage is to sit with feelings and allow them to dissolve on their own.

Clearly, I didn't do that when I publically announced that my feelings were hurt and I felt offended. What I missed an opportunity to do was just sit with it until it passed. In retrospect, I would do it differently now. I should have contacted Marie privately with my feelings so that all of you would be more at ease.

How it works for me is I set my aspirations each day for what I want to work on and then at the end of the day I evaluate how it went. I rejoice when I act skillfully and I regret and vow to do better when I act unskillfully.

Heavy duty punishment is a Christian concept, not a Buddhist one. We aren't punishing to ourselves for our humanness.

I'm open to hearing your view. Clearly, you all think I'm a terrible person and a very bad Buddhist.

I can live with that.

Clearly you are mistaken. I dont think anyone thinks you are a "terrible person."

I do think that everyone sees that you feel free to offend but do not want to be offended.

The bit about always haveing your feelings hurt and or offended.... doing the whole PM discussion about your feelings being hurt so the whole appology thing can happen....IS a very passive aggressive from of aggression. It is playing the continual victim and an attempt at behavior modification of others toward you.

I don't see that at all. I feel that we are all free to post our views. When we feel offended by a post, we have a right to say so. Believe me when people here are upset or offended by my posts I hear about it.

Let's get back to the topic.

 

[Momanohedhunter]

I'm not a Zen Buddhist. I'm a Tibetan Vajrayana Buddhist. Perhaps you are more familiar with Zen Buddhists who practice Hinayana. Their practices suppress emotions. Vajrayana allow the emotions to be present and we behave naturally, not in some kind of contrived way. My emotions are evident to all and not suppressed. We work differently with our minds and hearts in the Vajrayana.

I know almost nothing about Buddhists other than they are seeking personal enlightenment as a way of life. If you say I'm wrong I'm wrong I thought so
Again the only idea I have is that they seek peace through enlightenment. Very noble.

Clearly, I didn't do that when I publically announced that my feelings were hurt and I felt offended. What I missed an opportunity to do was just sit with it until it passed. In retrospect, I would do it differently now. I should have contacted Marie privately with my feelings so that all of you would be more at ease.

How it works for me is I set my aspirations each day for what I want to work on and then at the end of the day I evaluate how it went. I rejoice when I act skillfully and I regret and vow to do better when I act unskillfully.

Heavy duty punishment is a Christian concept, not a Buddhist one. We aren't punishing to ourselves for our humanness.

I'm open to hearing your view. Clearly, you all think I'm a terrible person and a very bad Buddhist.

I can live with that.

No you're not or you wouldn't be so defensive. I have no idea what makes a good or bad Buddhist, but if playing the victim a good one you've got that nailed.

As pointed out a bazillion times heavy duty punishment is not a christian concept. Again as far as the book posted it was addressing your issues with that misconception, about punishment and letting go of anger. Thats why I questioned your age, trying to understand exactly what your issues are is daunting based on your posts. But happiness and fulfillment based on your present lifestyle is not what comes across.

OK. Let's stay on topic. It's true that my ideas about Christianity come from my personal history of being a Catholic up until the age of 19. I also know about the Christians who are vocal in opposition to civil marriage equality for gays. AND I work with many Christians in my community and find them to be wonderful people.

In my experience, Christian beliefs were misused. Force was part of it. I had no choice as a child.

Buddhism really has helped me in so many ways. For one thing, it has no concept of sin, salvation, eternal hell or heaven. When my dad died, my Catholic roots were no help and I struggled until finding Buddhism.

I accept that I don't come across as universally peaceful about all topics. I am still working through a few things from my past, and with those I am vulnerable. Sometimes I am unable to access the inner resources I have.

The reason that 'religion without force' is an important topic to me is that because my background I sympathize with others who've not been encouraged to question church authority or to ask questions and challenge church doctrine.

I hope this helps.

sky

Hm.

 

[syrenn]

Forced religion is compulsory religion. As a child I had no choice but to attend a Catholic school, pray everyday, go to confession and mass every week. I went to Catholic camp in the summer, and I lived in a Catholic Charities foster home.

How Catholicism was presented to me as a child was harmful. It's just the way I was raised and how the religion was misused to justify abuse. It's natural that I would choose another path when I was free to.

That in no way reflects on the entire Catholic Church or all Catholics.

Children have no choice in ANYTHING. Their whole lives are forced upon them. Religion is not the only force.

You are lucky to live in a society that ALLOWS you to choose what religion you want to follow. You are lucky to live in a society where you are not persecuted for your beliefs.

Obviously the force that was applied on you did not work and you chose for yourself when you had the opportunity to.

 

[Sky Dancer]

I'm not a Zen Buddhist. I'm a Tibetan Vajrayana Buddhist. Perhaps you are more familiar with Zen Buddhists who practice Hinayana. Their practices suppress emotions. Vajrayana allow the emotions to be present and we behave naturally, not in some kind of contrived way. My emotions are evident to all and not suppressed. We work differently with our minds and hearts in the Vajrayana.

My age is none of your business and is irrelevant to the topic of practicing religon without force.

You have some interesting ideas about Buddhists. You think we're not supposed to be human and have ordinary feelings like anyone else. That's a misconception. What we train to do in my lineage is to sit with feelings and allow them to dissolve on their own.

Clearly, I didn't do that when I publically announced that my feelings were hurt and I felt offended. What I missed an opportunity to do was just sit with it until it passed. In retrospect, I would do it differently now. I should have contacted Marie privately with my feelings so that all of you would be more at ease.

How it works for me is I set my aspirations each day for what I want to work on and then at the end of the day I evaluate how it went. I rejoice when I act skillfully and I regret and vow to do better when I act unskillfully.

Heavy duty punishment is a Christian concept, not a Buddhist one. We aren't punishing to ourselves for our humanness.

I'm open to hearing your view. Clearly, you all think I'm a terrible person and a very bad Buddhist.

I can live with that.

Clearly you are mistaken. I dont think anyone thinks you are a "terrible person."

I do think that everyone sees that you feel free to offend but do not want to be offended.

The bit about always haveing your feelings hurt and or offended.... doing the whole PM discussion about your feelings being hurt so the whole appology thing can happen....IS a very passive aggressive from of aggression. It is playing the continual victim and an attempt at behavior modification of others toward you.

I don't think it's true that NOBODY thinks I'm a terrible person. I had to put AllieBaba on ignore because her posts are soooo critical, and scathing toward me. I had to close my PM for awhile to keep her from sending me '**** off' messages.

It's true that I can make the mistake of generalizing her position to others who are simultaneously attacking my character.

I don't think telling someone you are hurt and offended by something they've said is 'playing the victim'. I do think it's perfectly fine for me to set limits with others, and I think it's fine when others do the same with me.

I would like to drop this line of inquiry about this Marie post and get back to the topic.

Are you interested?

sky