Practicing religion without force

[AllieBaba]

Please. You label anyone who contradicts you as *abusive* and anyone who dares to point out your dishonesty as a name caller.

That way you never, ever have to answer for your lies.

I've worked with a lot of crazy people; in treatment, in jail, in group homes, and this is standard operating procedure for compulsive liars. Any time they are caught in a lie or are asked to face a truth about themselves that they don't want to face, they create drama. Usually with themselves as the victim.

There are trainings on it. Really. It's a whole field of study in and of itself, and Sky is the posterchild.

 

[AllieBaba]

And if she was a REAL counselor, she would know that. So either she's not a real counselor, or a compulsive liar who is hiding her own understanding.

Either way. A liar.

 

[Sky Dancer]

Does anyone remember the Hare Krishnas and Moonies?

They sure seemed to be shoving their trip down people's faces. Did you ever feel harassed my them?

I've had some people tell me they felt pressured by Nicheren Buddhists (Nam Myōhō Renge Ky&#333 to convert. I never personally encountered them, but I've heard a few horror stories.

 

[emilynghiem]

And if she was a REAL counselor, she would know that. So either she's not a real counselor, or a compulsive liar who is hiding her own understanding.

Either way. A liar.

Dear Allie: I can see why you think she is a compulsive liar if you don't believe she is really a counselor if she is still recovering from her own abuse or PTSD.

Allie, I have a friend who works with kids to break out of the cycle of incarceration. My friend said she was an assault victim, but does not talk about this openly. It took years to get her to take steps even though me and another friend were watching her back, and it seemed like I was enabling a victim at time, and he constantly reminded her nobody wants to hear a bunch of victimhood in cries for help and funding. But that is the reality of where she was. She did incredible work with those kids, one of them won a prestigious scholarship in college when he started as an angry closed kid on the path his parents were on when they went to prison. He managed to break free with her support. So even though she is just as messed up in some areas where she needs real longterm help, not to be afraid to take some steps, she still has been THE angel to help those kids break free.

My friend Ray who has helped so many people through and out of the prison system in Texas, which is living hell, has no qualms about admitting he is atheist. He gave up his early calling as a Baptist preacher, and teaches about forgiveness by practicing it. He admits he makes mistakes all the time, and other people do, life brings good and bad, and just advises people to let go, accept the abundance of free grace and take advantage of this, and not to try keeping score on themselves much less other people if they are going to stay sane and survive the political system and bureaucracy in Texas. He admits he has problems with Christian groups that only hire their own for jobs in the prison system. But he is willing to work with my friend Olivia who only uses faith-based Christian prayer to heal people of addictions and abuses from the past. Ray practices a combination of AA with Buddhism and has seen the prison AA group grow from 250 to 2500 people because of adding training and teaching on meditation techniques to handle some of the AA steps.

I get what you say, that you have seen FU people and victims and different stages of recovery. And from what you see, Sky is not where she needs to be or aspires to be. Of course not, that is a long path for anyone.

I'm glad you are far enough along in your experience as a counselor that you can discern where someone is or is not.
Since you are such an experienced counselor, I do hope to work with you on building a diverse coalition and network to make sure ALl people have access to WHATEVER counseling or group they need to get through ALL steps of recovery and healing. I use a combination of Buddhism and Christianity myself, and found this helps a lot of my friends who need both at times, usually following one more than the other, but using the other as a check and balance.

Wherever Sky is in her process, I support her in that. If she doesn't take or accept correction from you, in a way you can see she is not in denial or lying to herself or others, I'm sure she will get that from someone else.

You sound like you have much more to do with all your gifts and experiences in counseling very damaged people. If you have helped sex offenders in recovery, I am ESPECIALLY interested in following up with you, to see how to do studies on the most effective spiritual treatments to diagnose conditions and to prevent relapses. I believe the brain scan technology developed by Dr. Daniel Amen in CA, coupled with the spiritual healing and deliverance methods taught by Drs. Francis and Judith MacNutt in FL, will lead to scientific proof of diagnosis and cure to prevent repeat sex offenders from harming innocent victims.

So if you are interested in this, will you please let me know?

My friend Olivia has helped to cure at least one pedophile addict by removing demonic obsessions through the deliverance/exorcism methods; but she reports that these cases relapse repeatedly and require constant follow up to work through the process, while the heroin and alcohol addictions only require major prayer for 1 or 2 critical stages that are natural in the recovery process (usually 1 to address and break through the immediate physical symptoms and denial, and a 2nd to address the inner core of unforgiven past or parental relations that allowed the addiction to form in the first place). So I would like to study this process formally, and help as many people as possible, while pursuing medical research to make free treatment available to all who need it. I believe that will cut the costs of health care and losses and waste of govt resources on mental health and prison programs that aren't working as well.

Let me know if you are interested in collaborating on research studies, Allie.

The work that you and also Sky do, is TOO important, to argue about who is stuck in what stage. My own friends have jumped on me for my healing process being too OCD or ADD or whatever. That happens. But in the process I have helped a lot of people who were so messed up, I was the only person they trusted not to judge them because I don't judge myself. As soon as they figured that out, they opened up to me and tell me things they can't tell anyone else. And that is how they eventually find healing, by identifying all the things inside that are part of the problem and also the solution. It seems Sky is trying to talk through all her issues. This IS her healing process, and you are both doing your parts to say what you feel and try to work this. I'm sure it will work out. Your work is too important to let this barrier get in the way of wherever you both are heading next.

I am glad to meet you both here, and hope that somehow our connections in the kind of recovery and healing and counseling work you both do, will lead to some diverse collaboration to help even more people! Especially because of the diversity of approach, just like my two friends who take totally opposite approaches. How many more people can be reached that way, by offering different avenues no matter what stage or approach each person needs!

It is BECAUSE you and Sky are coming from different views or stages, that you can both reach and help the people you do. Maybe the people you help wouldn't respond to Sky, or the people she helps are not for you. People are like that. So maybe it should be that way.

I think it is great you both work in recovery.
That is so important, no wonder you are both so sensitive!
I'm sorry this has been a barrier when it should be a blessing.

I hope to get to know you both more!

And I apologize if any of my messages are out of whack also.
In some ways I may come across more messed up than Sky. At least she comes from just one viewpoint,
instead of me coming from several different angles at once.
So if you jump on her, I would expect you to jump on me three times as much!

I'm used to that. You can criticize me all you want and I will try to understand what you are saying. I think Sky has the same intent, but with her background she probably clashes with people the way I do with some of my friends. Even with people I've known for years, and we trust each other to be honest, we say things messed up and give the completely wrong perception. Happens to the best of us, even to the best of friends or marriages!

Sorry for this, and glad to know you and Sky both take counseling and recovery so seriously. I respect that more than I can say, so thank you very much!
Hope things work out and get better from here. Looking forward to seeing what comes of all this!
Take care, Allie
Yours truly,
Emily

 

[emilynghiem]

Dear Sky: Thank you for a lovely and insightful background on this tradition!

If I had to do it all over again, I would vote for the best of Buddhism AND the best of Christianity, and correct anything that could go wrong or be missing in either approach.

The Buddhist traditions of being mindful and prayerful in advance of birth seem to focus on prevention by establishing respectful harmonious relations at the start. The Christian teachings on forgiveness (especially deliverance prayer to break the cycles of karma or generational sin) help remediate what is already incarnated, even cycles of abuse, so this is not passed on to the next generation. So this is correction as well as future prevention.

Though we cannot go back and wish that we had not been born with that karma or conditioning, we can still forgive it "after the fact" and be purified of it spiritually though we cannot change the past physically.

So both are good and necessary.

If it makes you feel better, since I was brought up with Buddhist parents, and never really studied EITHER Buddhism or Christianity until I started independent search of both of these on my own, I am fascinated to learn how people are brought up Catholic and learning all the traditions I was not exposed to. I am glad I have the choice to study these freely, and was not brought up to resent or rebel against them, but like you, sometimes I wish I could go back and have some of that teaching so I could know better what it is without having to work at it.

When I meet people who are traumatized by Christian or other religious abuse (I know someone who was suicidal as teen from Muslim parents who thought they would go to hell if they failed to bring their children up Muslim), I am glad I was brought up without any particular teaching, and have the free choice to learn what these things mean in terms of the future, independent of how they have been taught in the past. It turns out my interpretations are broader than traditional Buddhist or Christian, so that is why I was born on this path; I was meant not to have those conditions limiting what either of these mean.

In the end, there are plusses and minusses to both. Just like kids who had overly restrictive parent wish they had more permissive; while kids whose parents were too permissive WISH they had parents who would have been more structured or disciplined!

The best is to have a balance of both, and yet we don't learn that except as hindsight!
So we do the best we can, given what we got, and invest our experience and wisdom in the future to make it better for the next generation. Again taking the best of all approaches, and forgiving what is amiss or missing from them as well.

Thank you for sharing, Sky. I pray you have all the support you need in your journey to helping yourself and others to fulfill your paths and purpose. You sound like you have been through so much, and you have so much to offer for that! More blessings and grace to you

Yours truly,
Emily

[As for the severity of abuse you suffered, from what I know of justice, the more you have in life to forgive, the more capacity you also have to receive greater spiritual rewards. If you were the sacrificial lamb in your family that allowed that cycle to break, then you have a greater calling that brings great rewards in itself on a spiritual level. The rewards are not due to Buddhism or Christianity per se, and neither was the abuse. The cycle would have manifested in one way or another, and the healing and recovery would also. They may find expression in one way or another, but the process still goes through set stages. I'm sorry for the pain you have seen and pray you receive healing from all available sources]

Today I saw a movie that gave me an idea how to explain the best of Buddhism and the best of Christianity. In Battle of LA one soldier on the ground aimed the laser to guide the missile to the target, while the other operation was in charge of shooting the missile from the air. They had to work together to get the job done. So Buddhism is like the meditation and wisdom to discern "what is the memory or perception causing the attachment to suffering" and Christianity teaches the prayer and authority to target that unforgiven conflict and to remove it with forgiveness and to heal it with grace. Buddhism is about letting go first so we can see more clearly in our minds, and Christianity is about receiving of healing grace in place of the upset thoughts and suffering in our hearts. Christianity is about "speaking the TRUTH with LOVE and doing all things with LOVE" and Buddhist teachings are about WISDOM and COMPASSION, so these work hand in hand. And as a friend at work once explained it, Christian prayer is talking to God and Buddhist meditation is letting God answer. It is a two way conversation and process. The more we learn to let go, and what perceptions and biases we have to forgive, the more we can receive.

Emily-

I wanted to contrast the experience I've had watching my sangha introduce Buddhist practice to their children and how Catholicism was introduced to me as a child.

Children are exposed to Buddhist practice in utero, when their mothers meditate. They are exposed to Buddhist practice in utero when their mothers attend sadhana practice, they can hear the prayers and the song and the instruments.

When the mothers are going through birth, the community is praying for them, and a midwife who is a Buddhist meditator is coaching the parents.

Then after the child is born, the parents are welcome to attend and join in meditation or sadhana practice at any time. As the children grow, their parents naturally bring them with them when the parents come to practice with the community. Usually the parents bring toys or books and the children are allowed to freely come and go from the shrine room. No one sees a child who is fussy as a 'disturbance' to their meditation. It is included in our meditation. It's very natural.

Recently, I was at a retreat over Tibetan New Year and one of my sangha members brought all four of his children with him. Twin boys age 16 months, five year old boy and a ten year old girl. The boy was wandering around from where his father was serving as choepen for the ceremony and he would interact with his father while his father was engaged in helping Rinpoche. The twins were with their mother playing with their toys, crying alot and coming in and out of the room.

Alot of the time, the five year old was on my lap. I had just met him and we were fast friends. Some folks thought I was his grandmother. Sometimes he would ask me a question about 'what are they saying now' and I would translate the Tibetan text for him. He was satisfied with my answers and would go back to play. He sometimes want to ring the bell and hold the dorje and I let him. He would pick out holy pictures from my text and walk around the shrine room showing them to everyone and exclaim with delight as he held a picture of the meditational deity "I just love ........ and name the meditational deity.

The children's parents are very loving and devoted dharma students. The children are happy and well adjusted and they enjoy the kind attention they receive from the adults in our sangha.

This is the kind of introduction to spiritual practice I wish I'd had as a child.

sky

That is really lovely Sky. I will join you in meditating that we treat one another and all relations as if they were born in this same spirit of mindfulness and respect. Can we let go of all our past records, and just start now with this kind of peace? Every day, waking up as a new baby just born in the world, and see all people and all things with this openness and wonder. Can we embrace that and welcome it in all our relations, letting go of anything that is NOT like this love, or not letting that occupy any space in our minds?
That is a wonderful meditation. I join you in that!

 

[emilynghiem]

Does anyone remember the Hare Krishnas and Moonies?

They sure seemed to be shoving their trip down people's faces. Did you ever feel harassed my them?

I've had some people tell me they felt pressured by Nicheren Buddhists (Nam Myōhō Renge Ky&#333 to convert. I never personally encountered them, but I've heard a few horror stories.

Dear Sky:
I guess you asking:
why aren't people complaining about harassment from others
is like you being asked:
are you complaining about Muslim abuses (like the current uproar over Shariah law)
or only pointing out Christian abuses because that affected you?

I think you are trying to talk about your personal experiences only, and are not trying to make any generalization about all Christians though it sounds that way to people.

Because of the internet being public, anything you say sounds like a generalization.
The more you can forgive people for taking it how you don't mean,
the more they can forgive you for saying it in ways that come across wrong online.

Religion and politics are difficult to talk about for that reason.
Also any statements about men and women you had experiences with that will come across as generalized statements whether this is intended or not.

These things are to be expected, and the internet magnifies them.
I think people are asking you not to take this personally if they question or even criticize you for faults they find. Happens all the time, even when that is NOT what we are saying.

Hope you don't let this bother you too much Sky.
Just keep forgiving, keep having equal compassion for everyone as you desire for yourself, and things will eventually work themselves out. Please do not fret.
If this triggers emotions in you, be thankful for those insights and keep applying what you know of mindfulness and letting go. Do not start picking at others as they do you.

You will work it out. Just keep forgiving and letting go, like the popular meditation of letting negative thoughts float away like a leaf down the river, or baggage you put on a train and let them go away. If the baggage comes back, go through it and get what you need out of it that helps you, and put the rest you don't need back on the train and send it away again.
Eventually these things will quit coming back.
You will get what you need from them, and let the rest go.

Take care Sky
And best wishes with your counseling and outreach.
You have much to offer and are at an interesting point in discovering
the full extent and capacity of your gifts. I do believe your friends here
are keys to unlock your full potential. When you can learn how to communicate
most effectively with them, you can be even more effective in your practice and work!
This is a really ideal opportunity and I pray you make and get the most out of it.
The people who distrust you the most may turn out to be your best allies in the process.

As my friend Olivia might advise you, when you are a diamond in the rough, a large piece of coal or rock, you are not worth as much; as after you are cut away, whittled down by very harsh sharp cuts by others, and reduced to just a tiny gem. But Sky that gem is worth millions more than the huge rock. That gem deep inside shines brilliantly and is worth all the cuts it took to get there. So all these people who cut you down, they are refining you and you will be a better finer person for it. It may hurt but that is part of the process. Look to how this refines your purpose and focus, When you can give thanks to them for the things they say to you, that is when you fully receive and understand how this serves you.

 

[emilynghiem]

That's absolutely true. I never said my experience is universal to all Catholics. I merely pointed out why I had to leave the Church.

My experience is not the same as everyone else. It's merely my experience. I never said anything otherwise.

What I have done, that was a mistake, is to NOT qualify every time I am speaking of a minority of Catholics or Christians. I should ALWAYS put a qualifier (a few, some, in my experience, etc) in front of the term; Christian or Catholic when I speak of my experience.

I've offended alot of Christians and they have let me know about it. Conversely, (with the exception of Marie) they deny, minimize, and invalidate my feelings when I'm hurt or offended by their posts. They expect me to always be sensitive to them, to never question ANY Christian, to never make a mistake, and to keep my mouth shut when I feel hurt or offended. It's unrealistic.

It would be nice to have an equal kind regard.

1. RE: leaving the Catholic church
If it is any comfort to you, or helps make a distinction between Catholic and other Christian, Francis MacNutt also had to leave the Catholic church in order to teach healing methods of deliverance and exorcism by practitioners outside the Catholic authority.

Carlson Pearson walked away from his ministry, church, and line of books and everything he had, in order to preach a more inclusive interpretation of the Bible that didn't judge or condemn anyone yet still professed Christ Jesus as the role of bringing universal salvation. He left behind congregations and receives criticisms from other Christians for teaching that no one is going to go to hell, but God's will is to save everyone through Jesus so no soul is lost. Whether we believe that or not, understand it or not, his will is supreme and is done, and it is NOT for any soul to burn in hell.

He left his church, but did not leave Christianity to teach this. He openly admits he changed his ways of teaching that were wrong and abusing or misinterpreting the Bible, in order to explain to other Christians and nonchristians the difference in how he understands the Bible now as opposed to how he was brought up and how he used to teach before.

So you don't have to leave Catholicism and become Buddhist or nonchristian etc. Many people leave one denomination or change because they outgrow where they came from, and still remain in their faith, and still accept the past as part of their process to get where they are today.

From what I understand, you can practice Buddhism and be Christian also Catholic, or atheist or Muslim, it can complement and enhance whatever faith you have or don't have. Buddhism is about the meditation practice of mindfulness and wisdom, spiritual study and process of learning and growing to perfection or maturity with peace harmony and compassion for all people and things in creation.

You can practice it within or without any other faith or institution.

Same with Christianity, though it serves a more central unifying purpose. If you notice, there are whole groups of Buddhist-Christians, Muslim-Christians, Jewish-Christians, etc. So through Christianity, all other tribes shall eventually reconcile in common truth, with Christ as the connecting joining factor. That is where all the healing, forgiveness and correction takes place together to establish one truth with all witnesses contributing.

So there is no need to compete or convert everyone to this way or that way. Just find which tribe you align with and organize under that one. Like the different states of the union that each have their local laws, yet are all under one law of the land for all of them.
All ways will find fulfillment in the spirit of truth, even though each person or path may use a different religious language for universal laws to speak to that audience.

2. As for generalizations made or offenses taken on the internet.

Sounds like it happens mutually, for every person who sees one side there is someone who sees the other. If we tried to keep score over which person did what first, etc., we would get lost in debate and not focus on productive sharing. Sky when you talk about the expectations of others, in comparison with yourself, it will come across as defensive or onesided; it is best not to go there because it will be misunderstood even if you are honest.

I hope this passes soon, and leads to deeper exploration of the content to discuss.

Sky I support you in continuing to forgive and let go, so all these efforts can be refocused to areas we all agree are key to progress and fulfillment.

Very interesting the people you have engaged and attracted in your path. May all these points and people you touch lead to blessings that are multiplied by many more still!

Yours truly,
Emily

 

[LumpyPostage]

I've never known anybody who was forced to believe something and actually believed it.