Hi Foxfyre and thanks for breaking down the points that is really helpful.
I believe the difference is that asking people to receive Jesus is accepted on faith first.
It is not proven until after that point, where people can learn how to apply this faith to make all the changes in life that it brings. No one has proven Justice exists, we just accept to live by Justice and establish it in the process.
With Buddhism, the tradition is to offer Wisdom. And if people see that these things make sense, then they choose to follow it. No one is asked to believe in Buddha or believe anything based on faith without proof.
Now, whether that is abusive or not, it depends how it is done.
Even spanking can be seen as abusive to children, because it depends on emotion and obeying authority not reason, because kids are not developed yet to understand all things.
It depends how spanking is used if it is abusive or not.
Same with Christianity, there are ways to indoctrinate using fear-based methods instead of love that cause emotional damage.
Skydancer would be correct if she talked about "specific" cases where Christian teaching was done abusively. If "mass generalizations" had not been made about either Christian or Buddhist parents or teachings, this offense would not have come up as that is wrong. There are differences in how both are taught, but that is not even true in all cases!
I would rather follow up on "specific" things that are abusive, and how these can happen in any case, even with secular teachings or laws. It isn't just religion or Christianity.
The only 'abuse' involved seemed to be in some of Sky's relationships with others.
Unfortunately people do project their own process and healing into such discussions that are connected with the same. Can we agree to use this for good, for healing, and not let it be a bad thing to criticize?
We can still raise the same questions or points, but in a manner of correcting to help improve relations with each other. Not to discredit one another.
Can we talk about this more constructively and forgive when it becomes negative?
Isn't that part of the healing process too?
So the good points and benefits within Buddhism or Christianity or Judaism or whatever--and I am one who teaches that ALL religions contain at least some truth and ALL do some good--are really irrelevent to the discussion. Or they are irrelevent if we stay focused on the OP.
I think these would come up also. I agree with you that there are strengths and weaknesses in all teachings. so whatever we address here, on topic, is going to apply relatively to the others also. We may find or use other analogies or references from other religious traditions, so that it doesn't become defensive. but we talk specifically about what is causing the abuse that can happen anywhere with anyone, that is the real issue.
It began to get more complicated when we began splitting hairs over what is the difference between a Buddhist teacher teaching others and a Christian teacher teaching others, and at least one of us tried to make the case that the Christian student often isn't given a choice in what to believe.
From my experience, I have found many Christian friends are reluctant to include or taught to exclude other religions, and this perception may be part of what Sky is objecting to. Instead of making generalizations, I would address with each person which things they believe are exclusive, since everyone is different.
The Bahai celebrate all religions as contributing teachings to the whole. But my mother and at least one of my friends teach Buddhism as almost against or excluding what Christianity teaches, saying it is reaching outside instead of inside and not getting why Jesus is key. So that can become just as much as "not a choice to believe in" by not teaching that correctly. I agree there is a problem with that.
If Buddhists run around teaching Christianity or Jesus means something it does not,
then that is practicing false speech, attaching oneself to false views. Buddhist would have to let go of any limited or false perception of Christianity in order to follow their own teachings. If they are not completely open minded that Christianity could offer greater truth than what they already think, that can become close minded and against Buddhist teachings.
Anyone can do this, even Buddhists.
But again what I think Sky was referring to was the teaching in Buddhism not to indoctrinate others, but to offer freely without asking people to believe or adopt anything.
Many Christians believe in openly asking and even urging others or requiring them to share the Gospel. So this can easily become abusive, when mixed with fear of punishment or hell. (I would say in Buddhism the opposite risk occurs, that if you become too passive you can commit neglect and allow wrongs or suffering to continue that could be prevented. So that could be seen as abusive also, by negligence and denial.)
When that theory was I think effectively shot down, THEN we were presented with what was problably the original target of the thread to begin with--accusations and condemnation of abuses that exist in other religions and of course Buddhism would never be guilty of that.
And at that point, some of us simply called out what I believe was unintended dishonesty in the method used to get there, but it is seen as a form of dishonesty by many of us just the same.
I agree there is projection going on, but I would not call it intellectual dishonesty since Sky seems to acknowledge she is working out her process. The steps or stages of recovery from past grievances is not always all at once, so she may be in a different place right now. Maybe she needs to vent about past hostilities she has had to face in the past before she can let go. They need to process out by verbaliszing them. I agree this is not good to do by making group generalizations that offend others, as she does not like that either.
If that is where she is right now, then what is the best way to help progress from this stage to a better place? I believe corrections are better received in the spirit of forgiveness not criticism. If we can focus on mutual forgiveness and correction, I believe these faults you point out in logic will work themselves out. Everyone has these emotional bumps. Sky seems in a better place with it than some of my friends, so this is mild compared to the venting and inability to deal with differences I have seen with other people. This is actual quite civil compared to where some of my friends are with talking about religion at all!
Thanks and I hope the points can be refocused and stick there.
Like the issue of "what constitutes abuse"
I tried to answer that with respect to Buddhism and Christianity
but it also gets into other applications as well, not just those.
