Physics and why LWIR can not warm oceans... Info for a Clueless Senator Markey and alarmists..

[SSDD]

Explain how radiation magically stops when the IR gun is pointed at something the same temperature. I say they both continue to radiate, you say they stop but refuse to give a mechanism to abort the collisions that produce the radiation in the first place.

Your basic error here Ian is that you don't seem to know how an IR gun operates. Once again you have shown that people fool themselves with instrumentation all the time.

 

[SSDD]

My gosh SSDD that is one of the stupidest things you think. The CMB emits thermal radiation. Not “resonant radio frequencies”. You are making crap up. Show me a source that says that the CMB is anything but thermal radiation at 2.7 K.

Poor child...a radio telescope can't receive anything but radio signals...CMB is not a radio signal... Here is the simplest explanation of what was actually detected that I could find...

Measurements of CMB by the COBE gave the Nobel Prize in Physics in 2006 to Georg Smooth and John Mather for discovering CMB. Similarly, measurements of DLR are presented as evidence of DLR supporting CO2 alarmism.

The existence of both CMB and DLR is thus manifested by certain instrument readings and to understand the nature of CMB and DLR, we have to ask what in fact the instrument or detector, is recording.

The detector of CMB is a radio-telescope, which like a radio tuner tunes in different resonance frequencies of an antenna which produces an electrical signal, which is amplified into a recording over frequency or a spectrum.

The recorded spectrum is matched with a black-body spectrum according to Planck's law,
where the peak of the recorded spectrum determines the temperature (3 K) from which a radiance can be computed by Planck's law. The recorded spectrum is thus translated by using Planck's law into a radiance measured in W/m2, which is perceived as a "faint glow".

A radio spectrum was recorded and then a radiance temperature is computed...it is very much like the same process for measuring back radiation at ambient temperature...it is the output of a mathematical model...not an actual measurement of back radiation. To measure anything that could be construed as back radiation, the sensing device must be cooled to a temperature lower than that of the atmosphere.

 

[SSDD]

Do you deny the basic premise that the 3rd method of heat transfer (radiative) exists then? Or are you just too lazy to research WHY it's included in all textbooks on thermo..

Are you saying that my statement was untrue? You don't seem to be...but you seem reluctant to admit that it is true.

 

[SSDD]

And yet, you apparently believe wholeheartedly in photons, QM, and both the AGW and greenhouse hypotheses with far less evidence than every observation ever made...and the second law didn't get to be a law based on the thin correlation that serves as support for the AGW hypothesis.

Shuck and jive...bob and weave..duck and cover. You can't answer the question. You accept thermodynamic models of refrigerator physics! And you can't prove it applies to radiation physics can you. And you try to divert your ignorance by attacking quantum mechanics and photons. Talk about hypocrisy.

I suggested that you re read the section again so that you could understand what was being said...clearly you didn't...thus your continued misunderstanding. Here, let me help.

Second Law of Thermodynamics: It is not possible for heat to flow from a colder body to a warmer body without any work having been done to accomplish this flow. Energy will not flow spontaneously from a low temperature object to a higher temperature object. This precludes a perfect refrigerator. The statements about refrigerators apply to air conditioners and heat pumps, which embody the same principles.

What is being stated there is the second law...then it goes on to say that the consequence of that law is that we can not make a perfect refrigerator...or a perfect heat engine...or a perfect anything.....not the last 2 words...same principles. They are just pointing out that the second law applies to everything.

Read for comprehension...

 

[SSDD]

I'm sure that you believe that that receiving a resonance radio signal is evidence that a radio telescope received CMB IR radiation.

There you go again making up words for radiation thermodynamics. You have no idea what you are talking about. Why don't you tell the Nobel prize winners that their experiment was all wrong.

I have given you the explanation....again...for what was actually measured. If it is over your head I am sorry but your inability to understand doesn't alter the fact.

 

[SSDD]

OMG --- how close you are.. But how far it is to the truth.. The LENS is there because it's accepting IR radiation in the forrm OF LIGHT. Lenses don't focus "temperatures".. And I haven't held a thermopile in my hands for about 20 years. They are a very complicated way to measure heat and have virtually no sensitivity to objects that aren't very warm.. All of these Home Depot IR thermometer use direct photoelectric conversion. With small and cheap and accurate photodiodes that are tuned to IR. Like the IR sensor in a remote control..

Here you go flacaltenn...from the Fluke site...I am sure that you are familiar with Fluke.

http://support.fluke.com/hart-sales/Download/Asset/4100366_6203_ENG_A_W.PDF

What is an infrared thermometer?

Infrared thermometers are a subset of radiation thermometers. These devices measure infrared radiation and display a temperature based on the radiation measured by the infrared thermometer and the emissivity setting of the infrared thermometer. The term infrared thermometer generally refers to handheld devices with a thermopile detector. Some other names used for infrared thermometers are IR guns, point and shoot thermometers, spot pyrometers, laser thermometers.

And radiation from your freezer IS coming out -- IS focused by lens -- and IS delivered to the photosensors that then measure an electric current corresponding to the number of IR photons received per unit time..

Sorry guy...it isn't... in the case of objects that are warmer, the thermopile warms up and that results in a voltage which is then converted into a temperature...if the object is cooler, the focus of the lens results in the thermopile cooling down which also results in a voltage which is then converted into a temperature...the whole thing is operating based on a mathematical formula assigned to a voltage that results from the thermopile warming or cooling...or not changing at all. It all works much like Pictet's experiment.

Go buy one -- take it apart -- and send us a pic of the "thermopile" in it. Even it HAD a thermopile in it -- it's still the incoming IR radiation thru that lens that would "warm" that thermopile..

No need...I actually read the book that came with mine... Since there is no question that I am right about how IR thermometers work the only real question is whether or not you are grown up enough to admit that you were wrong....fooling yourself with instrumentation isn't something to be to embarrassed about...half of climate science is fooling itself with instruments and the other half is adjusting temperatures in part based on the failure of the other half to understand what their instruments are doing.

Reference Pictet's experiment for a very crude version of that high tech beauty you probably own but don't understand how it works.

 

[Crick]

God are you stupid.

He didn't say they don't exist, he said they're bloody antique. Look them up in Wikipedia and you'll note that one of the primary references is this: Thermo-Electric Generators., from the ******* MUSEUM OF RETRO TECHNOLOGY.

And if you think Fluke is the expert, did you note this item on the very same page?:

Kirchhof’s Law and Emissivity For energy incident on a surface, the ratios of the energy reflected, transmitted and emitted sum to unity. When a surface is opaque, the emitted and reflected energy sum to unity. The emissivity is the ratio a surface of temperature (T) emits when compared to a perfect blackbody of the same temperature. Every object has an emissivity less than unity. The energy exiting an opaque surface is a combination of reflected and emitted energy. It is important to note that emissivity is not necessarily constant over all wavelengths.
*************************************************************

Where is the proviso you would have added concerning emittance being inversely proportional to the temperature of the matter towards which the subject radiates? They say NOTHING about it. ODD.

 

[Wuwei]

A radio spectrum was recorded and then a radiance temperature is computed...it is very much like the same process for measuring back radiation at ambient temperature...it is the output of a mathematical model...not an actual measurement of back radiation. To measure anything that could be construed as back radiation, the sensing device must be cooled to a temperature lower than that of the atmosphere.

You forgot that I provided you with 65 examples of thermal radiation from a cold object to an antena 300 degrees warmer.The cold cosmic microwave background, CMB, at 2.7 degrees K must strike a radio antenna on earth at 300 degrees K in order to be detected.

30 of the systems use bolometers as detectors.
You don't need any mathematical models to compute or interpret the detected bolometer signals because they directly detect HEAT.

What is a Bolometer?

Bolometers are detectors used to measure incident Infrared radiation. They are very sensitive to thermal radiation and are predominantly used in the infrared spectrum between 10 to 5000µm (30THz to 60GHz). The detector element is an extremely sensitive thermistor ...
Infrared detectors, IR imagers, IR cameras, spectrometers, cryogenic systems, cryostats & dewars - Infrared Laboratories About Bolometers

 

[CrusaderFrank]

A radio spectrum was recorded and then a radiance temperature is computed...it is very much like the same process for measuring back radiation at ambient temperature...it is the output of a mathematical model...not an actual measurement of back radiation. To measure anything that could be construed as back radiation, the sensing device must be cooled to a temperature lower than that of the atmosphere.

You forgot that I provided you with 65 examples of thermal radiation from a cold object to an antena 300 degrees warmer.The cold cosmic microwave background, CMB, at 2.7 degrees K must strike a radio antenna on earth at 300 degrees K in order to be detected.

30 of the systems use bolometers as detectors.
You don't need any mathematical models to compute or interpret the detected bolometer signals because they directly detect HEAT.

What is a Bolometer?

Bolometers are detectors used to measure incident Infrared radiation. They are very sensitive to thermal radiation and are predominantly used in the infrared spectrum between 10 to 5000µm (30THz to 60GHz). The detector element is an extremely sensitive thermistor ...
Infrared detectors, IR imagers, IR cameras, spectrometers, cryogenic systems, cryostats & dewars - Infrared Laboratories About Bolometers

You must have skipped over this part

"The detector element is an extremely sensitive thermistor that is cooled to LHe temperatures in order to decrease the thermal background."

 

[Wuwei]

What is being stated there is the second law...then it goes on to say that the consequence of that law is that we can not make a perfect refrigerator...or a perfect heat engine...or a perfect anything.....not the last 2 words...same principles. They are just pointing out that the second law applies to everythin

That is funny. You now openly admit that you are using refrigerator thermodynamics to explain radiation thermodynamics. Thank you. That is what I have been saying all along. For your own good try to cite a source that applies only to the thermodynamics of radiation .

I'm sure that you believe that that receiving a resonance radio signal is evidence that a radio telescope received CMB IR radiation.

There you go again making up words for radiation thermodynamics. You have no idea what you are talking about. Why don't you tell the Nobel prize winners that their experiment was all wrong.

I have given you the explanation....again...for what was actually measured. If it is over your head I am sorry but your inability to understand doesn't alter the fact.

I have given you an explanation over and over for what was actually measured. If it is over your head I am sorry but your inability to understand doesn't alter the fact that thermal radiation is not a resonance frequency. The CMB was measured with devices that directly MEASURE HEAT, NOT FREQUENCIES. I made that bold faced so that your attention span might be jolted to reality a little bit.

 

[SSDD]

God are you stupid.

Says one of the biggest lying idiots on the board.

He didn't say they don't exist, he said they're bloody antique. Look them up in Wikipedia and you'll note that one of the primary references is this: Thermo-Electric Generators., from the ******* MUSEUM OF RETRO TECHNOLOGY.

Sorry guy, but once again you demonstrate conclusively that on yet another topic, you don't have a clue. And anyone who looks to wikipedia for anything is indeed an idiot.

Here crick..the best rated infrared thermometers from 2015...the one with the best rating is a fluke 572-2 which has a thermopile...next is the FLIR TG165...and here is a link to a discussion of a tear down on one...you will see mention of the location of the thermopile...
EEVblog #669 - FLIR TG165 Thermal Imager Teardown - Page 1.. and on it goes...here is the
Testo Far-Field and Close Focus Infrared Thermometer with Aluminum Case, -35 to +950 Degree C Range, 0.1 Degree C Resolution..this is a $1400 thermometer...again...thermopile. Do you ever bother to learn anything...ever...before you speak?

 

[Wuwei]

You must have skipped over this part

"The detector element is an extremely sensitive thermistor that is cooled to LHe temperatures in order to decrease the thermal background."

LHe temperatures is 4 deg K. The CMB is 2.7 deg K. Not only is the detector warmer, but the antenna it hits is at 300 deg K. That shows that thermal radiation can and does strike objects warmer than the source.

 

[SSDD]

You forgot that I provided you with 65 examples of thermal radiation from a cold object to an antena 300 degrees warmer.The cold cosmic microwave background, CMB, at 2.7 degrees K must strike a radio antenna on earth at 300 degrees K in order to be detected.

No you didn't, but I believe that you believe you did...each and every one of those examples either represented reception and calculation based on a radio signal...or they were received by IR instruments which were cooled down to a temperature lower than 2.75K.

 

[SSDD]

You must have skipped over this part

"The detector element is an extremely sensitive thermistor that is cooled to LHe temperatures in order to decrease the thermal background."

It is like they are the world champions at fooling themselves with instrumentation...or anything that they believe proves their point for that matter....like crick's "greenhouse" experiment that is really only showing the heat of compression.

 

[Crick]

You must have skipped over this part

"The detector element is an extremely sensitive thermistor that is cooled to LHe temperatures in order to decrease the thermal background."

Liquid helium is still warmer than the CMB. And, of course, that CMB radiation had to penetrate a very warm atmosphere and was likely concentrated by large dishes that were at ambient temperature. For SSDD's assertion to hold, those photons would have had to see 13.82 billion years into the future at a target 13.82 billion light years away probably less than a centimeter across and decide whether or not to make the trip.

Sticking with SSDD is not making you look any brighter Frank. Besides every single "warmer" Ian and FCT both think he's nuts. Do you really think SSDD knows more physics than the two of them?

 

[SSDD]

I have given you an explanation over and over for what was actually measured. If it is over your head I am sorry but your inability to understand doesn't alter the fact that thermal radiation is not a resonance frequency. The CMB was measured with devices that directly MEASURE HEAT, NOT FREQUENCIES. I made that bold faced so that your attention span might be jolted to reality a little bit.

Thermodynamics is thermodynamics regardless of what it is applied to. You think there are separate laws of thermodynamics that only apply to refrigerators? What a goober.

And again, check the specs on those bolometers...they were cooled to about 2.75K in order to receive the CMB...fooling yourself with instrumentation again.

 

[CrusaderFrank]

You must have skipped over this part

"The detector element is an extremely sensitive thermistor that is cooled to LHe temperatures in order to decrease the thermal background."

LHe temperatures is 4 deg K. The CMB is 2.7 deg K. Not only is the detector warmer, but the antenna it hits is at 300 deg K. That shows that thermal radiation can and does strike objects warmer than the source.

I'm confused. If my thermometer currently reads 72 degrees in my office, you're telling me that I can point it to a colder office across the street and it will read 68?

Really?

 

[CrusaderFrank]

You must have skipped over this part

"The detector element is an extremely sensitive thermistor that is cooled to LHe temperatures in order to decrease the thermal background."

Liquid helium is still warmer than the CMB. And, of course, that CMB radiation had to penetrate a very warm atmosphere and was likely concentrated by large dishes that were at ambient temperature. For SSDD's assertion to hold, those photons would have had to see 13.82 billion years into the future at a target 13.82 billion light years away probably less than a centimeter across and decide whether or not to make the trip.

Sticking with SSDD is not making you look any brighter Frank. Besides every single "warmer" Ian and FCT both think he's nuts. Do you really think SSDD knows more physics than the two of them?

If your physics is correct, why bother to cool it all?

 

[Wuwei]

You forgot that I provided you with 65 examples of thermal radiation from a cold object to an antena 300 degrees warmer.The cold cosmic microwave background, CMB, at 2.7 degrees K must strike a radio antenna on earth at 300 degrees K in order to be detected.

No you didn't, but I believe that you believe you did...each and every one of those examples either represented reception and calculation based on a radio signal...or they were received by IR instruments which were cooled down to a temperature lower than 2.75K.

It's in post #198. You are getting quit forgetful lately. Thirty of the examples are bolometers that directly measure heat, not radio signals.

You forgot again that I did provide you with an example of thermal radiation from a cold object to an object 300 degrees warmer.The cold cosmic microwave background, CMB, at 2.7 degrees K can strike a radio antenna on earth at 300 degrees K.

You are getting quit forgetful lately.

There are sixty five experiments in the following reference that all saw the CMB, using these detectors, or combinations,
30 bolometers,
20 HEMT,
9 Interferometers,
4 SIS detectors.
Etc.
List of cosmic microwave background experiments - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
After the CMB passes through the warmer atmosphere it must strike the warmer parabolic dish so that it can reflect to the detector. The dish is at an ambient temperature hundreds of degrees warmer than the CMB.

Those are 65 cases of actual observed, measured examples to support the claim that radiation can move from objects at any temperature to other objects at any temperature.​

 

[Wuwei]

I'm confused. If my thermometer currently reads 72 degrees in my office, you're telling me that I can point it to a colder office across the street and it will read 68?

Really?

Nope, I never said or implied that. Are you one of SSDD's minions that has a screwy view of thermodynamics?