Over 16.3 million Americans now carry guns for self defense, the murder rate dropped another 2.5%...

[2aguy]

if owning guns, reduced the murder rate, the US should be murder free...but it has one of the highest murder rates of the developed countries

Then why is Britains gun crime rate and violent crime rate going up while ours is going down.....since they banned and confiscated guns?

You have no leg to stand on....

We went from 200 million guns in private hands in the 1990s and 4.7 million people carrying guns for self defense in 1997...to close to 400-600 million guns in private hands and over 16.3 million people carrying guns for self defense in 2017...guess what happened...


-- gun murder down 49%
--gun crime down 75%
--violent crime down 72%

Gun Homicide Rate Down 49% Since 1993 Peak; Public Unaware

Compared with 1993, the peak of U.S. gun homicides, the firearm homicide rate was 49% lower in 2010, and there were fewer deaths, even though the nation’s population grew. The victimization rate for other violent crimes with a firearm—assaults, robberies and sex crimes—was 75% lower in 2011 than in 1993. Violent non-fatal crime victimization overall (with or without a firearm) also is down markedly (72%) over two decades.
Concealed carry permit number....
New Study: Over 16.3 million concealed handgun permits, last year saw the largest increase ever in number of permits - Crime Prevention Research Center

actual study...

Concealed Carry Permit Holders Across the United States: 2017 by John R. Lott :: SSRN

 

[2aguy]

In a population of 56 million, that adds up to about 50 to 60 gun killings annually. In the USA, by contrast, there are about 160 times as many gun homicides in a country that is roughly six times larger in population. There were 8,124 gun homicides in 2014, according to the latest FBI figures.

Gun violence rare in U.K. compared to U.S.

160 times the gun homicides in the US and the US has 16 times more gun ownership per person !!!!!!!!

We will do this again....

The gun murder rate in Britain was low before they banned and confiscated guns.....our non gun murder rate is higher than their total murder rate, genius.

After they banned and confiscated guns...on an island nation....their gun murder rate went up.......then it returned to the exact same level it was at before they banned and confiscated guns.....

The murder rate is driven by the criminals deciding to murder other people.......not gun ownership. British criminals have not been willing to murder...they will torture, and rape, and rob...but they haven't been crossing that line....now they are...as their gun crime, knife crime and violent crime rates show....

 

[Conservative65]

cars are not used in murders that much!!!! are they
guns are used in most murders
we do want to try to cut the number of murders, yes?

But gun control laws do not lower the murder rate no matter how often you say they do.

The States with the strictest gun control laws have higher murder rates than the states with the most lax gun laws

Based on Harmonica's mindset, if someone having the intention to kill another person didn't have a gun, the murder wouldn't take place.

very likely it wouldn't

So getting rid of guns does not stop a person with the intent to murder from murdering?

yes it does----
around 9000 gun homicide in the US just 50 in the UK
accounting for population size there should be 1500 murders in the UK if comparing to the US with millions of guns--but there is not
the murder rate is many times higher in the US---not 2, or 3 , 4 , or 10 times....it is THIRTY times higher
yes, lack of guns and/or gun control greatly reduces the murders and many people would not murder without a gun
the numbers are right there .....

You have no way of proving people wouldn't murder without a gun. There are no such numbers to support your claim.

 

[2aguy]

if owning guns, reduced the murder rate, the US should be murder free...but it has one of the highest murder rates of the developed countries

You don't take one simple factor into account. There are PEOPLE that misuse guns. The guns aren't doing the killing. They can't shoot themselves. It's PEOPLE misusing them doing the killing. Are you saying that if the person didn't use a gun the murder would not have occurred?

People use cars, knives, clubs, and all sorts of other things to kill someone else. Where's the outrage on placing strict limits on the use of them?

the US has many times the gun ownership per capita--but higher murder rate than European countries/developed countries

if the US has gun ownership many times the European countries, according to the OP, US murder rate should be less than the countries of Europe--but it is many times higher
so ownership of guns means nothing to reducing murders

cars are so much less deadly than cars.....please think of the hours per used....cars are used everyday all day
cars are constantly redesigned for survival ...guns constantly redesigned to kill more efficiently
cars are so much safer you can't even calculate it .....please calculate how many hours cars are used vs guns ....
guns are so much more efficient at killing than knives/bats/cars/etc...why do you think they are used more than any other weapon??
so, we have cars constantly redesigned to be safe--guns constantly redesigned to kill--I'm asking for your truthful opinion: should not guns be regulated just as much, if not more, than cars??

No.....what you fail to understand is that the culture of Europe has been pacified by 2 world wars and a history of dependence and reliance on government. Their criminals did not commit murder.....they have now changed their attitude toward murder.....and are doing more of it....

Moron...guns are more regulated than cars....and cars kill more people than guns do....

 

[2aguy]

if owning guns, reduced the murder rate, the US should be murder free...but it has one of the highest murder rates of the developed countries

You don't take one simple factor into account. There are PEOPLE that misuse guns. The guns aren't doing the killing. They can't shoot themselves. It's PEOPLE misusing them doing the killing. Are you saying that if the person didn't use a gun the murder would not have occurred?

People use cars, knives, clubs, and all sorts of other things to kill someone else. Where's the outrage on placing strict limits on the use of them?

the US has many times the gun ownership per capita--but higher murder rate than European countries/developed countries

if the US has gun ownership many times the European countries, according to the OP, US murder rate should be less than the countries of Europe--but it is many times higher
so ownership of guns means nothing to reducing murders

cars are so much less deadly than cars.....please think of the hours per used....cars are used everyday all day
cars are constantly redesigned for survival ...guns constantly redesigned to kill more efficiently
cars are so much safer you can't even calculate it .....please calculate how many hours cars are used vs guns ....
guns are so much more efficient at killing than knives/bats/cars/etc...why do you think they are used more than any other weapon??
so, we have cars constantly redesigned to be safe--guns constantly redesigned to kill--I'm asking for your truthful opinion: should not guns be regulated just as much, if not more, than cars??

Accident to accident comparison of guns and cars......please...try to understand it...

https://www.cdc.gov/injury/wisqars/leading_causes_death.html
Total car accidental death....

2015....36,161
2014....33,736
2013....33,804
2012....34,935


Leading Causes of Death | WISQARS | Injury Center | CDC
Total car accidental death....

2015....36,161--------- Gun murder 9,616
2014....33,736 -------- Gun murder 8,312
2013....33,804-------- Gun murder 8,454
2012....34,935 ------- Gun murder 8,897


Accidental gun deaths...

Leading Causes of Death | WISQARS | Injury Center | CDC

2015...489

2014.....486
2013 ..... 505
2012 ..... 548
2011 ..... 591
2010 ..... 606
2009 ..... 554
2008 ..... 592
2007..... 613
2006..... 642
2005 ..... 789
2004 ..... 649
2003 ..... 730
2002 ..... 762
2001 ..... 802
2000 ..... 776
1999 ..... 824

 

[2aguy]

if owning guns, reduced the murder rate, the US should be murder free...but it has one of the highest murder rates of the developed countries

You don't take one simple factor into account. There are PEOPLE that misuse guns. The guns aren't doing the killing. They can't shoot themselves. It's PEOPLE misusing them doing the killing. Are you saying that if the person didn't use a gun the murder would not have occurred?

People use cars, knives, clubs, and all sorts of other things to kill someone else. Where's the outrage on placing strict limits on the use of them?

very pro-gun St Louis is the murder capital of the US
St. Louis named murder capital of America – Report
STL murder rate much higher than gun-controlled Chicago, NYC, and LA
Chi, NYC, and LA also much denser population
very pro-gun Missouri has a higher murder rate than gun control California, Ill, and NY
this is all cross checked with STL high on the lists of most dangerous cities and CHi, NYC, and LA not

This was shown to be stupid in other threads.....

Chicago....vs.....Houston.

Chicago has exreme gun control laws, and 0 gun stores and ranges inside the city.

Houston has guns stores all over the place, you can carry guns openly and concealed, and they are on the border with the narco state of Mexico....

Chicago...2016

Population 2.705 million

762

Houston...2016

Population 2.303

302

 

[2aguy]

if owning guns, reduced the murder rate, the US should be murder free...but it has one of the highest murder rates of the developed countries

You don't take one simple factor into account. There are PEOPLE that misuse guns. The guns aren't doing the killing. They can't shoot themselves. It's PEOPLE misusing them doing the killing. Are you saying that if the person didn't use a gun the murder would not have occurred?

People use cars, knives, clubs, and all sorts of other things to kill someone else. Where's the outrage on placing strict limits on the use of them?

very pro-gun St Louis is the murder capital of the US
St. Louis named murder capital of America – Report
STL murder rate much higher than gun-controlled Chicago, NYC, and LA
Chi, NYC, and LA also much denser population
very pro-gun Missouri has a higher murder rate than gun control California, Ill, and NY
this is all cross checked with STL high on the lists of most dangerous cities and CHi, NYC, and LA not

And this is where you fail.....

Boston...extreme gun control...everything you want, assault rifle ban, magazine limit, background checks....the works....

New York ...the same.......

It isn't the guns, it is the nature of the criminals....

2016:
Baltimore population ....614,000, gun murders 318


New York Population...8.6 million, gun murders 335


Baltimore population falls, nearing a 100-year low, U.S. Census says

The figures put Baltimore at about 614,664 people, down more than 1 percent.
New York..... 8,600,000
Population Of New York City 2017
Gun murder in Baltimore 2016...
The total of 318 killings by year's end made 2016 the second-deadliest year per capita on record,
Gun murders in New york....

NYC saw historically low number of shootings in 2016

Murders were also down in 2016, to 335 homicides

 

[2aguy]

if owning guns, reduced the murder rate, the US should be murder free...but it has one of the highest murder rates of the developed countries

You don't take one simple factor into account. There are PEOPLE that misuse guns. The guns aren't doing the killing. They can't shoot themselves. It's PEOPLE misusing them doing the killing. Are you saying that if the person didn't use a gun the murder would not have occurred?

People use cars, knives, clubs, and all sorts of other things to kill someone else. Where's the outrage on placing strict limits on the use of them?

the US has almost double the gun ownership per capita--but higher murder rate than European countries/developed countries
amount of guns and murder rate
if the US has almost double gun ownership compared to the nest country down, according to the OP, US murder rate should be less than the countries of Europe

cars are so much less deadly than cars.....please think of the hours per used....cars are used everyday all day
cars are constantly redesigned for survival ...guns constantly redesigned to kill more efficiently
cars are so much safer you can't even calculate it .....please calculate how many hours cars are used vs guns ....
guns are so much more efficient at killing than knives/bats/cars/etc...why do you think they are used more than any other weapon??
so, we have cars constantly redesigned to be safe--guns constantly redesigned to kill--I'm asking for your truthful opinion: should not guns be regulated just as much, if not more, than cars??

Are you saying someone killed by a NUT using a car is less dead than someone killed by a NUT using a gun? You focus on the item neither of which can drive or shoot, respectively, without SOMEONE driving or shooting them.

cars are not used in murders that much!!!! are they
guns are used in most murders
we do want to try to cut the number of murders, yes?

They kill more people, accidentally, than when guns are used intentionally to murder people.......


Leading Causes of Death | WISQARS | Injury Center | CDC
Total car accidental death....

2015....36,161--------- Gun murder 9,616
2014....33,736 -------- Gun murder 8,312
2013....33,804-------- Gun murder 8,454
2012....34,935 ------- Gun murder 8,897


Accidental gun deaths...

Leading Causes of Death | WISQARS | Injury Center | CDC

2015...489

2014.....486
2013 ..... 505
2012 ..... 548
2011 ..... 591
2010 ..... 606
2009 ..... 554
2008 ..... 592
2007..... 613
2006..... 642
2005 ..... 789
2004 ..... 649
2003 ..... 730
2002 ..... 762
2001 ..... 802
2000 ..... 776
1999 ..... 824

 

[2aguy]

How Japan has almost eradicated gun crime
View attachment 150356

No......that has nothing to do with their crime rate....their people are not criminals......even the Yakuza are mostly non violent, and only go to war occasionally, they prefer to make money, not shoot each other over facebook insults....their last gang war was in 2006 and lasted 7 years...and they used guns and grenades on each other.....

Here is how Japan keeps the over all crime rate low...

Japan: Gun Control and People Control

Japan's low crime rate has almost nothing to do with gun control, and everything to do with people control. Americans, used to their own traditions of freedom, would not accept Japan's system of people controls and gun controls.





Robbery in Japan is about as rare as murder. Japan's annual robbery rate is 1.8 per 100,000 inhabitants; America's is 205.4. Do the gun banners have the argument won when they point to these statistics? No, they don't. A realistic examination of Japanese culture leads to the conclusion that gun control has little, if anything, to do with Japan's low crime rates. Japan's lack of crime is more the result of the very extensive powers of the Japanese police, and the distinctive relation of the Japanese citizenry to authority. Further, none of the reasons which have made gun control succeed in Japan (in terms of disarming citizens) exist in the U.S.

The Japanese criminal justice system bears more heavily on a suspect than any other system in an industrial democratic nation. One American found this out when he was arrested in Okinawa for possessing marijuana: he was interrogated for days without an attorney, and signed a confession written in Japanese that he could not read. He met his lawyer for the first time at his trial, which took 30 minutes.

Unlike in the United States, where the Miranda rule limits coercive police interrogation techniques, Japanese police and prosecutors may detain a suspect indefinitely until he confesses. (Technically, detentions are only allowed for three days, followed by ten day extensions approved by a judge, but defense attorneys rarely oppose the extension request, for fear of offending the prosecutor.) Bail is denied if it would interfere with interrogation.

Even after interrogation is completed, pretrial detention may continue on a variety of pretexts, such as preventing the defendant from destroying evidence. Criminal defense lawyers are the only people allowed to visit a detained suspect, and those meetings are strictly limited.

Partly as a result of these coercive practices, and partly as a result of the Japanese sense of shame, the confession rate is 95%.

For those few defendants who dare to go to trial, there is no jury. Since judges almost always defer to the prosecutors' judgment, the trial conviction rate for violent crime is 99.5%.
Of those convicted, 98% receive jail time.

In short, once a Japanese suspect is apprehended, the power of the prosecutor makes it very likely the suspect will go to jail. And the power of the policeman makes it quite likely that a criminal will be apprehended.

The police routinely ask "suspicious" characters to show what is in their purse or sack. In effect, the police can search almost anyone, almost anytime, because courts only rarely exclude evidence seized by the police -- even if the police acted illegally.

The most important element of police power, though, is not authority to search, but authority in the community. Like school teachers, Japanese policemen rate high in public esteem, especially in the countryside. Community leaders and role models, the police are trained in calligraphy and Haiku composition. In police per capita, Japan far outranks all other major democracies.

15,000 koban "police boxes" are located throughout the cities. Citizens go to the 24-hour-a-day boxes not only for street directions, but to complain about day-to-day problems, such as noisy neighbors, or to ask advice on how to raise children. Some of the policemen and their families live in the boxes. Police box officers clear 74.6% of all criminal cases cleared. Police box officers also spend time teaching neighborhood youth judo or calligraphy. The officers even hand- write their own newspapers, with information about crime and accidents, "stories about good deeds by children, and opinions of
residents."

The police box system contrasts sharply with the practice in America. Here, most departments adopt a policy of "stranger policing." To prevent corruption, police are frequently rotated from one neighborhood to another. But as federal judge Charles Silberman writes, "the cure is worse than the disease, for officers develop no sense of identification with their beats, hence no emotional stake in improving the quality of life there."

Thus, the U.S. citizenry does not develop a supportive relationship with the police. One poll showed that 60% of police officers believe "it is difficult to persuade people to give patrolmen the information they need."

The Japanese police do not spend all their time in the koban boxes. As the Japanese government puts it: "Home visit is one of the most important duties of officers assigned to police boxes." Making annual visits to each home in their beat, officers keep track of who lives where, and which family member to contact in case of emergency. The police also check on all gun licensees, to make sure no gun has been stolen or misused, that the gun is securely stored, and that the licensees are emotionally stable.

Gun banners might rejoice at a society where the police keep such a sharp eye on citizens' guns. But the price is that the police keep an eye on everything.

Policemen are apt to tell people reading sexually-oriented magazines to read something more worthwhile. Japan's major official year-end police report includes statistics like "Background and Motives for Girls' Sexual Misconduct." In 1985, the police determined that 37.4% of the girls had been seduced, and the rest had had sex "voluntarily." For the volunteers, 19.6% acted "out of curiosity", while for 18.1%, the motive was "liked particular boy." The year-end police report also includes sections on labor demands, and on anti-nuclear or anti-military demonstrations.

 

[Skull Pilot]

cars are not used in murders that much!!!! are they
guns are used in most murders
we do want to try to cut the number of murders, yes?

But gun control laws do not lower the murder rate no matter how often you say they do.

The States with the strictest gun control laws have higher murder rates than the states with the most lax gun laws

Based on Harmonica's mindset, if someone having the intention to kill another person didn't have a gun, the murder wouldn't take place.

very likely it wouldn't

So getting rid of guns does not stop a person with the intent to murder from murdering?

yes it does----
around 9000 gun homicide in the US just 50 in the UK
accounting for population size there should be 1500 murders in the UK if comparing to the US with millions of guns--but there is not
the murder rate is many times higher in the US---not 2, or 3 , 4 , or 10 times....it is THIRTY times higher
yes, lack of guns and/or gun control greatly reduces the murders and many people would not murder without a gun
the numbers are right there .....

Then tell me why is the murder rate in the UK not lower than it was in the 1950's BEFORE all their gun laws were passed?

Why is the murder rate in the US the same as it was in 1950's despite the fact we have more guns in the hands of more people and more people than ever with concealed carry permits.

Now tell me why does CA, the state with the strictest gun laws in the country have a higher murder rate than UT, the state with the most lax gun laws in the country?