Our National Debt, spending addiction and deficit spending is problem 1

[Winston]

All who oppose it are simpletons.

How does that make sense. You even agree, there is a time for deficit spending. So, an asteroid is heading right for Earth, but Congress is hamstringed with a constitutional amendment that requires balanced budgets. How is that working out for you?

 

[BackAgain]

Your guy added $9 trillion in 3 years.

Nobody gives a rats ass what a Trumphumping refucklican thinks about anything regarding the debt.

View attachment 581231

Before Trump, it was your fuck buddy, Obumbler, who added the then most ever to the deficit. And unlike Trump, Obumbler wasn’t saddled with a pandemic.

 

[task0778]

I would have them articulate the fraud implicit in massive deficit spending. I would have them articulate the crucial necessity for preparing honest balanced budgets. I would have them agree to pay the yearly interest due in time as a first step. I would then have them bind themselves to paying down as much principle as possible consistent with our other budgetary needs —before “spending” any other money. I would have them agree to zero new fake debt ceilings.

Okay, good stuff. I'm for that myself, but what do they do next after the democrats tell them to go fuck themselves? The next spending bill comes along and the GOP does as you suggest and maybe the dems can't pass it via reconciliation so they scream long and loud in an election year about those cheap bastard republicans and we go into a govt shutdown that could last a long time before somebody caves. Do you think those crazy democrats are gonna cave, knowing their ass is gone if they do? Do you strike a deal, they spend less and you spend more? Isn't that kinda how it is supposed to work? I cannot think of a single incident where the Dems got everything they wanted with GOP support, can you?

What you want is nice, but it's a fantasy in today's political environment.

 

[Winston]

Before Trump, it was your fuck buddy, Obumbler, who added the then most ever to the deficit. And unlike Trump, Obumbler wasn’t saddled with a pandemic.

No, he was saddled with the mortgage crisis.

 

[BackAgain]

Your guy added $9 trillion in 3 years.

Nobody gives a rats ass what a Trumphumping refucklican thinks about anything regarding the debt.

View attachment 581231

Oh. Also, for your moron made up terms like “Trumphumping” and “refucklican” you are awarded the “asshole of the month” award. Congrats. Go get Fire-AIDS.

 

[BackAgain]

No, he was saddled with the mortgage crisis.

And made a choice to do what? Bail out the banks. Not a medical “emergency.”

 

[task0778]

What’s your opinion about the CBO, how honest of an interpretation did they publicly release, overall? It seemed like they didn’t like BBB from what I’ve read. Regardless of Manchin’s personal and state’s needs, it seemed more than reasonable to wait (like he did) for their study to post last Friday?

The CBO only works with the numbers they get in the bill they are analyzing. I don't know how they determine what data and parameters they use to score the cost of a piece of legislation, but this time at least they were honest enough to tell us what the true cost would be if the benefits were stretched out to 10 years like the taxes are. I do believe though that every time they issue a report it always turns out to be inaccurate on the low side, meaning the real cost of a bill is always higher.

I think it is irresponsible for Congress to vote on a spending bill without receiving a cost estimate from the CBO first, with at least 3 days to review it. This stuff about passing the bill to see what's in it is bunch of bullshit. Kudos to Manchin and Sinema for standing their ground; they very well might vote for a watered-down BBB and if so, so be it. Future presidents and Congresses can change it or kill parts or all of it.

 

[Harpy Eagle]

Here's my tally for the last 5 years

• 2017 - status quo budget. $671 Billion. I'll give Trump all of the since Repubs controlled all three branches of government.
• 2018 - This is the compromise that Trump agreed to for his increase in military spending. He got a $40 billion increase in military spending in exchange for a $650 billion increase in social spending. I give 80 % of this deficit to the Democrats.
• 2019 - This is where Congress passed the "COVID stimulus." All give Trump the blame for half of it. The totally deficit was $1.362 trillion.
• 2020 - Congress pass another stimulus. Trump didn't want it. Democrats then passed another stimulus. Total Dim stimulus? $3 trillion The Dim Congress then passed a $5 trillion infrastructure bill.

Total Dim deficit spending? $10.5 trillion.
Total Trump deficit $2.0 trillion

5:1 ratio of deficit spending.

And this is why we have 29 trillion dollars in debt, partisan sheep give their side a free pass.

You are a joke

 

[Harpy Eagle]

A budget request is nothing but a starting point that means nothing. Every budget request is always higher than the last one, and it means nothing.

Yes, it is the starting point. So, if I want to spend less than the other side, do I present a budget request for more than I want or for less than I want knowing they are going to add on to it?

 

[task0778]

Yes, it is the starting point. So, if I want to spend less than the other side, do I present a budget request for more than I want or for less than I want knowing they are going to add on to it?

Not knowing Trump's mind, I got no idea why or what he did. But it doesn't matter at all what you ask for, it's what you actually spent that matters. The debt and deficits don't go up based on budget requests, they go up based on dollars spent vs dollars received. It is my view that Trump spent a lot more than he or the GOP wanted to, because the democrats forced them to. And THAT is why the two parties are not equally at fault when it comes to overspending.

 

[bripat9643]

Never said Trump and the GOP should get a free pass. But don't be telling me they are the same cuz that's a crock.

Name me one time, just one fucking time during Trump's presidency where the dems wanted to spend less on anything than the GOP did. A budget request is nothing but a starting point that means nothing. Every budget request is always higher than the last one, and it means nothing. It's all about how much you spent, not how much you asked for. Time after time the democrats tried to spend so much more than the GOP did, and you know that is true. I would wager that if the democrats had gotten their way when Trump was president the deficit would have been at least a trillion bucks higher, and I think you know that too.

More like $3 trillion higher.

 

[ClaireH]

I disagree with you those charging stations. And the expansion of access to broadband internet will certainly payoff. But I want to address this misunderstanding concerning the current low interest rates, especially at a time when inflation is roaring back to life.

When the government engages in deficit spending it sells bonds to cover the shortfall. Sometimes, those bonds have maturity dates 30 years in the future. Currently, those rates are less than two percent. For example, the government borrows ten grand at 1.6% for thirty years. The government pays $3,788.61 in interest over the thirty years. But let's say that inflation averages 4% during that time period. When it comes time to pay off the bond the current value of that ten grand is $3,083.19. The present value of those interest payments is $2,766.73. I mean we are literally getting a dollar TODAY for every sixty cents we spend servicing and retiring that debt. Those investments don't even have to break even, we still win. But if they provide returns, through increased efficiencies, improved educational outcomes, and a healthier population, we make out like bandits.

But it gets better. As interest rates increase the value of those bonds on the secondary market declines. As the returns start rolling in, if politicians can maintain discipline, we can start retiring those bonds early, like Clinton did. And we save even more money. The financial reality of the current situation is that opposition to spending based on deficit concerns is ill-founded at best, and downright harmful at worst. Especially if that spending is directed toward investing in our country's future. There is an old saying that Dad used to say, if you can't contribute to making the situation better then get the hell out of the way. At this point, that is what Republicans, and the bought and bossed Joe Manchin, need to do, get the hell out of the way.

I’m still stuck on spending billions for 500,000 EV chargers. Clean drinking water trumps that in spades and is a valid inclusion, although I’d have to check the CBO’s findings about that amount for clean water improvements.

I will never agree that these charging stations and paying for them is a good thing, it’s only a temporary measure that will soon be outdated. We can talk about it in 5 years. I’m sticking with 8 year maximum usage if initiated, but it could be less due to green competitive market.

Considering that air space will soon be full of low-flying traffic and drones, all over the place once more businesses get in on that, to fly people around in electric at around 350 mph for short durations. Much more not even public yet.

My knowledge about bonds is limited but I question the rationality of allowing it to become this massive snowball, and no justification about buying low and selling high is going to erase this massive debt. The US national debt clock is one scary and most revealing webpage. Tick, tick, tick, tock…

https://www.usdebtclock.org/

“According to the Federal Reserve and U.S. Department of the Treasury, foreign countries held a total of 7.55 trillion U.S. dollars in U.S. treasury securities as of September 2021. Of the total 7.55 trillion held by foreign countries, Japan and Mainland China held the greatest portions. China held 1.05 trillion U.S. dollars in U.S. securities. Japan held 1.3 trillion U.S. dollars worth. Other foreign holders included oil exporting countries and Caribbean banking.”

Major foreign holders treasury securities U.S. 2024 | Statista

As of April 2024, Japan held United States treasury securities totaling about 1.15 trillion U.S.

www.statista.com

Do you trust that CCP will not recall the debt because of the fact that they need US consumers? That’s not enough security imo. Global statements like “China will accelerate all production currently and then dramatically reduce it by (some future date) to net zero”. What they’ve done is to justify going full speed ahead now, buying time like several other nations making false commitments, when economic conquest remains on track.

CCP’s actions/inactions outweighs the US by far, so will be more continued water pollution coming from China, as well as air pollution but has recently converted air pollution into water pollution, what a plan. A true Shapeshifter measure if I ever saw one! If you support CCP in any measure, we will not see eye-to-eye.

 

[bripat9643]

And this is why we have 29 trillion dollars in debt, partisan sheep give their side a free pass.

You are a joke

Every time you claim Republicans are as bad as Democrats, you're giving your side a free pass.

 

[Mac-7]

you must of hated Dump and Moscow Mitch

Would you have supported cutting welfare as part of a balanced budget deal?

 

[ClaireH]

There is a time for debt, and there is a time to reduce that debt. At the moment, it is a time for debt. When Bush Jr. was elected, it was a time to reduce that debt. When Reagan was elected, it was a time to reduce that debt. When Trump was elected, it was time to reduce that debt. Funny thing is, Republicans usually gain victories in a time when debt should be reduced, but instead of reducing the debt they give the money away in the form of tax cuts. That has much to do with the short-term thinking of the electorate. But it has more to do with politicians courting that short-term thinking with an argument akin to "I like pie".

In fact, funny story, some of the best financial minds in the world were spending their time playing Runescape in 2000, mostly mining meteors. I started a trend, players would go around and say to each other, "I like pie". It was so comical that it became a meme within the game.

But let's make this personal and use an example. Five years ago my son walked across the stage to graduate from college over $200,000 in debt. His only possession worth anything was an old Chrysler that he got from his grandmother. But that debt included college loans and a mortgage that he signed the week before he graduated. Today, he has a net worth in excess of half a million dollars. He went from a net worth of negative $200,000 to a positive half million in five years. He did it by properly using debt. The government can do the same thing with real discipline and bipartisan efforts.

But here’s the thing Winston, let me ask you this, in your personal life do you believe it is good to have personal debt? Now for some reason, I am anticipating your response to include some type of justification for debt. Home mortgage is a common debt Americans take on and imo is usually justifiable. Cars? No. Toys and fun: boats, bikes, ski package vacations no. What say you Mr. Winston?

Btw- why did you have to use that phrase “There is a time for debt”! That’s not a good message! There might be little ones reading this board, you never know Inquiring minds are very adaptive, so let’s feed their growing minds with helpful advice not harmful!

 

[Rigby5]

Would you have supported cutting welfare as part of a balanced budget deal?

Except that there no significant welfare in the federal budget.

That is because social security is not part of the federal budget, since it is self financing, and the main welfare like ADC and Disability, comes out of Social Security.
If you see Social Security in a listing of the federal budget, you can tell that is a fake listing, because social security is not paid for with general income tax money.

 

[ClaireH]

The CBO only works with the numbers they get in the bill they are analyzing. I don't know how they determine what data and parameters they use to score the cost of a piece of legislation, but this time at least they were honest enough to tell us what the true cost would be if the benefits were stretched out to 10 years like the taxes are. I do believe though that every time they issue a report it always turns out to be inaccurate on the low side, meaning the real cost of a bill is always higher.

I think it is irresponsible for Congress to vote on a spending bill without receiving a cost estimate from the CBO first, with at least 3 days to review it. This stuff about passing the bill to see what's in it is bunch of bullshit. Kudos to Manchin and Sinema for standing their ground; they very well might vote for a watered-down BBB and if so, so be it. Future presidents and Congresses can change it or kill parts or all of it.

Absolutely agree Task, and let’s set a sensible page limit. Nothing too difficult to accomplish. Putting a stop to these ridiculous mammoth bills can easily be done and they refused to do it for whatever reason. Which reps have attempted to push such a page limit bill for all bills through, and why was it stopped? I searched and couldn’t find anything regarding any legal attempt to do so, but if any reader knows about a rep proposing such a bill please advise.

 

[Winston]

I’m still stuck on spending billions for 500,000 EV chargers. Clean drinking water trumps that in spades and is a valid inclusion, although I’d have to check the CBO’s findings about that amount for clean water improvements.

I will never agree that these charging stations and paying for them is a good thing, it’s only a temporary measure that will soon be outdated. We can talk about it in 5 years. I’m sticking with 8 year maximum usage if initiated, but it could be less due to green competitive market.

Considering that air space will soon be full of low-flying traffic and drones, all over the place once more businesses get in on that, to fly people around in electric at around 350 mph for short durations. Much more not even public yet.

My knowledge about bonds is limited but I question the rationality of allowing it to become this massive snowball, and no justification about buying low and selling high is going to erase this massive debt. The US national debt clock is one scary and most revealing webpage. Tick, tick, tick, tock…

https://www.usdebtclock.org/

“According to the Federal Reserve and U.S. Department of the Treasury, foreign countries held a total of 7.55 trillion U.S. dollars in U.S. treasury securities as of September 2021. Of the total 7.55 trillion held by foreign countries, Japan and Mainland China held the greatest portions. China held 1.05 trillion U.S. dollars in U.S. securities. Japan held 1.3 trillion U.S. dollars worth. Other foreign holders included oil exporting countries and Caribbean banking.”

Major foreign holders treasury securities U.S. 2024 | Statista

As of April 2024, Japan held United States treasury securities totaling about 1.15 trillion U.S.

www.statista.com

Do you trust that CCP will not recall the debt because of the fact that they need US consumers? That’s not enough security imo. Global statements like “China will accelerate all production currently and then dramatically reduce it by (some future date) to net zero”. What they’ve done is to justify going full speed ahead now, buying time like several other nations making false commitments, when economic conquest remains on track.

CCP’s actions/inactions outweighs the US by far, so will be more continued water pollution coming from China, as well as air pollution but has recently converted air pollution into water pollution, what a plan. A true Shapeshifter measure if I ever saw one! If you support CCP in any measure, we will not see eye-to-eye.

Let's talk about those EV chargers. First, I think you are being a little pessimistic when you claim they will be outdated in five to eight years. What is going to take their place, we going to start driving solar powered cars? I live in a very rural area. The local high school is famously called the tractor school, mostly because they have tractor days every few months. Students drive their tractors to school and park them in the front of the school to display them. Some of the kids even drive riding lawnmowers. It is quite the sight. Not to mention what it does for traffic. I don't know anyone around here that drives an electric car, certainly don't see any Teslas.

But I have an hour commute to work. It is in one of the highest income areas of the state. My business has eight charging stations in the parking lot. When I roll in at six in the morning they are empty, but when I roll out in the afternoon at least half of them are occupied. I see multiple Teslas every single day. Do those living in rural areas not have the same right to access charging stations? Or broadband internet for that matter? That is what this bill provides.

But again, I don't believe you understand how Treasury bonds work. China can't recall those bonds. The only thing China can do is sell those bonds on the secondary market. Go for it, that only reduces the value of those bonds and then we can swoop in and buy them up on the cheap.

 

[bripat9643]

Would you have supported cutting welfare as part of a balanced budget deal?

Just ask them to name any program they are willing to cut. They can't do it, except for the military.

 

[ThunderKiss1965]

Problem #1 is America's income inequality. The richest country in the world would be doing fine if there was any incentive in the minds of the ordinary people to do something about it.

No, it's not other people's money. That's just the line of baloney that's been invented to keep the working class willing to suffer not getting a piece of the American pie.

The answers are all there in plain sight in the world's leading democracies. If Americans every get their heads on straight, they can look and see!

Income inequality the buzz word for wealth redistribution.