Oregon imposes gag order on Christian bakers in gay wedding case

[PostmodernProph]

What rights were infringed upon specifically? How was this bakery "attacked" by homosexuals? How did homosexual customers keep the bakery from worshiping God? Did they attack and burn the church?

well you might understand better if you went to a Muslim bakery and asked them to bake a gay wedding cake for you....i am sure they would inform you in no uncertain terms why they would not do so..... and if you didn't like their explanation and tried to sue them then you would probably be at the wrong end of a fatwa.....

of course this exercise would never happen because lefties and Muslims 'get along'.....

I still don't understand what rights were infringed.

I'm sorry......

 

[PostmodernProph]

What rights were infringed upon specifically? How was this bakery "attacked" by homosexuals? How did homosexual customers keep the bakery from worshiping God? Did they attack and burn the church?

well you might understand better if you went to a Muslim bakery and asked them to bake a gay wedding cake for you....i am sure they would inform you in no uncertain terms why they would not do so..... and if you didn't like their explanation and tried to sue them then you would probably be at the wrong end of a fatwa.....

of course this exercise would never happen because lefties and Muslims 'get along'.....

I still don't understand what rights were infringed. Were the Christians kept from worshipping? Was their property damaged? What exactly were the means and methods of the attacks on rights?

their right to practice freedom of religion.....(not to mention their free speech)
of course the left is trying to limit religion to the confines of a church...and ban it from the public square...

The freedom to choose your customers requires a rather broad interpretation of freedom of religion, so broad that it would open the door for a person or business to do just about anything under the guise of freedom of religion.

so much easier to tell them to **** themselves and get busy baking.....

 

[Flopper]

I still don't understand what rights were infringed. Were the Christians kept from worshipping? Was their property damaged? What exactly were the means and methods of the attacks on rights?

their right to practice freedom of religion.....(not to mention their free speech)
of course the left is trying to limit religion to the confines of a church...and ban it from the public square...

The freedom to choose your customers requires a rather broad interpretation of freedom of religion, so broad that it would open the door for a person or business to do just about anything under the guise of freedom of religion.

i thought it was the customer who had the choice to buy or not buy....the freedom to shop wherever he got what he wanted...
are you saying a shop keeper must supply whatever any customer demanded...?

I'm saying if the shopkeeper is in business to serve the public he should serve the public. When he put's that open for business sign up, he should not be able to pick his customers based on race, sex, ethnic origins, or sexual preference.

what about religion....?

isn't the 'ordinary' butcher picking customers based on religion....?

No, the ordinary butcher is offering his product to all customers without regard to the religion of his customers. Because a customer may have a special requirement, based on his religion does not require the butcher to supply such a product.

 

[PostmodernProph]

If you want specialized products, the customer cannot demand the proprietor to provide items beyond his menu.

I want to watch you tell Bridezilla that her wedding cake isn't a specialized product.........

 

[Nosmo King]

What rights were infringed upon specifically? How was this bakery "attacked" by homosexuals? How did homosexual customers keep the bakery from worshiping God? Did they attack and burn the church?

well you might understand better if you went to a Muslim bakery and asked them to bake a gay wedding cake for you....i am sure they would inform you in no uncertain terms why they would not do so..... and if you didn't like their explanation and tried to sue them then you would probably be at the wrong end of a fatwa.....

of course this exercise would never happen because lefties and Muslims 'get along'.....

I still don't understand what rights were infringed. Were the Christians kept from worshipping? Was their property damaged? What exactly were the means and methods of the attacks on rights?

their right to practice freedom of religion.....(not to mention their free speech)
of course the left is trying to limit religion to the confines of a church...and ban it from the public square...

The freedom to choose your customers requires a rather broad interpretation of freedom of religion, so broad that it would open the door for a person or business to do just about anything under the guise of freedom of religion.

so much easier to tell them to **** themselves and get busy baking.....

Thus spake the scofflaw.

 

[ScreamingEagle]

their right to practice freedom of religion.....(not to mention their free speech)
of course the left is trying to limit religion to the confines of a church...and ban it from the public square...

The freedom to choose your customers requires a rather broad interpretation of freedom of religion, so broad that it would open the door for a person or business to do just about anything under the guise of freedom of religion.

i thought it was the customer who had the choice to buy or not buy....the freedom to shop wherever he got what he wanted...

are you saying a shop keeper must supply whatever any customer demanded...?

I'm saying if the shopkeeper is in business to serve the public he should serve the public. When he put's that open for business sign up, he should not be able to pick his customers based on race, sex, ethnic origins, or sexual preference.

what about religion....?

isn't the 'ordinary' butcher picking customers based on religion....?

You don't seem to grasp this. Let's try again.

Wedding cakes are on the menu at the bakery. The baker is discriminating against homosexuals by not providing an item that is part and parcel of his normal business.

A butcher may or may not go to the trouble of certifying his shop as Kosher or Halaal. If he does decide that his business should offer Kosher or Halaal products, he has to offer those product to the general public.

If a customer wants Kosher/Halaal products, he should go to a butcher offering such products as a normal part of his business.

If you offer products, be they wedding cakes or Kosher chicken, you have to sell to the general public. If you want specialized products, the customer cannot demand the proprietor to provide items beyond his menu.

a generic wedding cake typically has one man - one woman figures on the top.....the baker would have to change his product to accommodate two gays or two lesbians...thus he would be getting into a specialty product....much like the Kosher or Halaal products...

 

[Nosmo King]

The freedom to choose your customers requires a rather broad interpretation of freedom of religion, so broad that it would open the door for a person or business to do just about anything under the guise of freedom of religion.

i thought it was the customer who had the choice to buy or not buy....the freedom to shop wherever he got what he wanted...

are you saying a shop keeper must supply whatever any customer demanded...?

I'm saying if the shopkeeper is in business to serve the public he should serve the public. When he put's that open for business sign up, he should not be able to pick his customers based on race, sex, ethnic origins, or sexual preference.

what about religion....?

isn't the 'ordinary' butcher picking customers based on religion....?

You don't seem to grasp this. Let's try again.

Wedding cakes are on the menu at the bakery. The baker is discriminating against homosexuals by not providing an item that is part and parcel of his normal business.

A butcher may or may not go to the trouble of certifying his shop as Kosher or Halaal. If he does decide that his business should offer Kosher or Halaal products, he has to offer those product to the general public.

If a customer wants Kosher/Halaal products, he should go to a butcher offering such products as a normal part of his business.

If you offer products, be they wedding cakes or Kosher chicken, you have to sell to the general public. If you want specialized products, the customer cannot demand the proprietor to provide items beyond his menu.

a generic wedding cake typically has one man - one woman figures on the top.....the baker would have to change his product to accommodate two gays or two lesbians...thus he would be getting into a specialty product....much like the Kosher or Halaal products...

Ordering a variety of cake toppers, for those few who still find those tacky little plastic statuettes fashionable, is vastly different from certifying a butcher shop Kosher.

Special cleaning and sanctifying procedures have to take place before a certification of Kosher is granted. An expense, for sure.

Calling a vendor who supplies cake toppers isn't that much of an effort, is it?

 

[Nosmo King]

Here is what wedding cakes look like:

And that's what same sex couples expect. The exact same level of service provided to customers these bakers are not afraid of.bakers are not of.

 

[ScreamingEagle]

i thought it was the customer who had the choice to buy or not buy....the freedom to shop wherever he got what he wanted...

are you saying a shop keeper must supply whatever any customer demanded...?

I'm saying if the shopkeeper is in business to serve the public he should serve the public. When he put's that open for business sign up, he should not be able to pick his customers based on race, sex, ethnic origins, or sexual preference.

what about religion....?

isn't the 'ordinary' butcher picking customers based on religion....?

You don't seem to grasp this. Let's try again.

Wedding cakes are on the menu at the bakery. The baker is discriminating against homosexuals by not providing an item that is part and parcel of his normal business.

A butcher may or may not go to the trouble of certifying his shop as Kosher or Halaal. If he does decide that his business should offer Kosher or Halaal products, he has to offer those product to the general public.

If a customer wants Kosher/Halaal products, he should go to a butcher offering such products as a normal part of his business.

If you offer products, be they wedding cakes or Kosher chicken, you have to sell to the general public. If you want specialized products, the customer cannot demand the proprietor to provide items beyond his menu.

a generic wedding cake typically has one man - one woman figures on the top.....the baker would have to change his product to accommodate two gays or two lesbians...thus he would be getting into a specialty product....much like the Kosher or Halaal products...

Ordering a variety of cake toppers, for those few who still find those tacky little plastic statuettes fashionable, is vastly different from certifying a butcher shop Kosher.

Special cleaning and sanctifying procedures have to take place before a certification of Kosher is granted. An expense, for sure.

Calling a vendor who supplies cake toppers isn't that much of an effort, is it?

it's still an effort....now you are deciding how much effort a person must expend....?

 

[ScreamingEagle]

Here is what wedding cakes look like:

And that's what same sex couples expect. The exact same level of service provided to customers these bakers are not afraid of.bakers are not of.

those are all special order cakes....they fall in the category of 'speciality' cakes......the baker does not have to provide them....

 

[Flopper]

The freedom to choose your customers requires a rather broad interpretation of freedom of religion, so broad that it would open the door for a person or business to do just about anything under the guise of freedom of religion.

i thought it was the customer who had the choice to buy or not buy....the freedom to shop wherever he got what he wanted...

are you saying a shop keeper must supply whatever any customer demanded...?

I'm saying if the shopkeeper is in business to serve the public he should serve the public. When he put's that open for business sign up, he should not be able to pick his customers based on race, sex, ethnic origins, or sexual preference.

what about religion....?

isn't the 'ordinary' butcher picking customers based on religion....?

You don't seem to grasp this. Let's try again.

Wedding cakes are on the menu at the bakery. The baker is discriminating against homosexuals by not providing an item that is part and parcel of his normal business.

A butcher may or may not go to the trouble of certifying his shop as Kosher or Halaal. If he does decide that his business should offer Kosher or Halaal products, he has to offer those product to the general public.

If a customer wants Kosher/Halaal products, he should go to a butcher offering such products as a normal part of his business.

If you offer products, be they wedding cakes or Kosher chicken, you have to sell to the general public. If you want specialized products, the customer cannot demand the proprietor to provide items beyond his menu.

a generic wedding cake typically has one man - one woman figures on the top.....the baker would have to change his product to accommodate two gays or two lesbians...thus he would be getting into a specialty product....much like the Kosher or Halaal products...

Customizing wedding cakes is a service offered by bakers who sell wedding cakes. You choose size, decoration, and the type of cake. If the Oregon bakery produced only standard unaccustomed cakes and had been willing to sell the gay couple such a cake, then there would have been no issue. The point being that service was denied for one reason only, the couple was gay. The denial of service had nothing to do with the decoration of the cake.

 

[Nosmo King]

Here is what wedding cakes look like:

And that's what same sex couples expect. The exact same level of service provided to customers these bakers are not afraid of.bakers are not of.

those are all special order cakes....they fall in the category of 'speciality' cakes......the baker does not have to provide them....

If the baker has a portfolio of photographs of cakes like these, does that not mean then that he does indeed produce these cakes? If a customer takes a photograph of a specific cake they would like, the baker is not under any obligation to try to produce a cake. Especially a cake beyond his skill, equipment and ingredients.

All same sex couples expect is the same level of service offered to everyone else. No law abiding, sober, responsible American citizen should be turned away because of who they are.

 

[Nosmo King]

I'm saying if the shopkeeper is in business to serve the public he should serve the public. When he put's that open for business sign up, he should not be able to pick his customers based on race, sex, ethnic origins, or sexual preference.

what about religion....?

isn't the 'ordinary' butcher picking customers based on religion....?

You don't seem to grasp this. Let's try again.

Wedding cakes are on the menu at the bakery. The baker is discriminating against homosexuals by not providing an item that is part and parcel of his normal business.

A butcher may or may not go to the trouble of certifying his shop as Kosher or Halaal. If he does decide that his business should offer Kosher or Halaal products, he has to offer those product to the general public.

If a customer wants Kosher/Halaal products, he should go to a butcher offering such products as a normal part of his business.

If you offer products, be they wedding cakes or Kosher chicken, you have to sell to the general public. If you want specialized products, the customer cannot demand the proprietor to provide items beyond his menu.

a generic wedding cake typically has one man - one woman figures on the top.....the baker would have to change his product to accommodate two gays or two lesbians...thus he would be getting into a specialty product....much like the Kosher or Halaal products...

Ordering a variety of cake toppers, for those few who still find those tacky little plastic statuettes fashionable, is vastly different from certifying a butcher shop Kosher.

Special cleaning and sanctifying procedures have to take place before a certification of Kosher is granted. An expense, for sure.

Calling a vendor who supplies cake toppers isn't that much of an effort, is it?

it's still an effort....now you are deciding how much effort a person must expend....?

I can imagine that the parents of these bigoted bakers had qualms with providing those little tacky statuettes when inter-racial marriage was finally legalized.

But bakers have to re-stock their supplies of those little plastic statuettes from time to time. Asking their supplier to include a few same sex figurines is not a burden. After all, the bakers aren't asking for anything beyond the normal inventory of their suppliers.

 

[ScreamingEagle]

i thought it was the customer who had the choice to buy or not buy....the freedom to shop wherever he got what he wanted...

are you saying a shop keeper must supply whatever any customer demanded...?

I'm saying if the shopkeeper is in business to serve the public he should serve the public. When he put's that open for business sign up, he should not be able to pick his customers based on race, sex, ethnic origins, or sexual preference.

what about religion....?

isn't the 'ordinary' butcher picking customers based on religion....?

You don't seem to grasp this. Let's try again.

Wedding cakes are on the menu at the bakery. The baker is discriminating against homosexuals by not providing an item that is part and parcel of his normal business.

A butcher may or may not go to the trouble of certifying his shop as Kosher or Halaal. If he does decide that his business should offer Kosher or Halaal products, he has to offer those product to the general public.

If a customer wants Kosher/Halaal products, he should go to a butcher offering such products as a normal part of his business.

If you offer products, be they wedding cakes or Kosher chicken, you have to sell to the general public. If you want specialized products, the customer cannot demand the proprietor to provide items beyond his menu.

a generic wedding cake typically has one man - one woman figures on the top.....the baker would have to change his product to accommodate two gays or two lesbians...thus he would be getting into a specialty product....much like the Kosher or Halaal products...

Customizing wedding cakes is a service offered by bakers who sell wedding cakes. You choose size, decoration, and the type of cake. If the Oregon bakery produced only standard unaccustomed cakes and had been willing to sell the gay couple such a cake, then there would have been no issue. The point being that service was denied for one reason only, the couple was gay. The denial of service had nothing to do with the decoration of the cake.

yes that IS the point.....

freedom of religion vs sexual-orientation discrimination.......which one should win...?

seems to me that freedom of religion came first....i don't see anything about sexual orientation in the Constitution.....

 

[TyroneSlothrop]

and now you know.......the Rest of the story ......


Oregon bakers weren’t fined over cake — they were punished for sharing lesbian couple’s home address
The anti-LGBT owners of an Oregon bakery were not fined for refusing to sell a wedding cake to a same-sex couple – they were ordered to pay $135,000 in damages for intentionally causing their would-be customers emotional distress.

 

[ScreamingEagle]

Here is what wedding cakes look like:

And that's what same sex couples expect. The exact same level of service provided to customers these bakers are not afraid of.bakers are not of.

those are all special order cakes....they fall in the category of 'speciality' cakes......the baker does not have to provide them....

If the baker has a portfolio of photographs of cakes like these, does that not mean then that he does indeed produce these cakes? If a customer takes a photograph of a specific cake they would like, the baker is not under any obligation to try to produce a cake. Especially a cake beyond his skill, equipment and ingredients.

All same sex couples expect is the same level of service offered to everyone else. No law abiding, sober, responsible American citizen should be turned away because of who they are.

pictures of cakes are the cake ARTIST's portfolio.....art is subjective and cannot be forced....

 

[Seawytch]

The freedom to choose your customers requires a rather broad interpretation of freedom of religion, so broad that it would open the door for a person or business to do just about anything under the guise of freedom of religion.

i thought it was the customer who had the choice to buy or not buy....the freedom to shop wherever he got what he wanted...

are you saying a shop keeper must supply whatever any customer demanded...?

I'm saying if the shopkeeper is in business to serve the public he should serve the public. When he put's that open for business sign up, he should not be able to pick his customers based on race, sex, ethnic origins, or sexual preference.

what about religion....?

isn't the 'ordinary' butcher picking customers based on religion....?

You don't seem to grasp this. Let's try again.

Wedding cakes are on the menu at the bakery. The baker is discriminating against homosexuals by not providing an item that is part and parcel of his normal business.

A butcher may or may not go to the trouble of certifying his shop as Kosher or Halaal. If he does decide that his business should offer Kosher or Halaal products, he has to offer those product to the general public.

If a customer wants Kosher/Halaal products, he should go to a butcher offering such products as a normal part of his business.

If you offer products, be they wedding cakes or Kosher chicken, you have to sell to the general public. If you want specialized products, the customer cannot demand the proprietor to provide items beyond his menu.

a generic wedding cake typically has one man - one woman figures on the top.....the baker would have to change his product to accommodate two gays or two lesbians...thus he would be getting into a specialty product....much like the Kosher or Halaal products...

No baker is required to carry bride/bride or groom/groom toppers. The cake is the same and in some places you are required to bake it for gay couples just like straight couples if you bake wedding cakes.

 

[Nosmo King]

Here is what wedding cakes look like:

And that's what same sex couples expect. The exact same level of service provided to customers these bakers are not afraid of.bakers are not of.

those are all special order cakes....they fall in the category of 'speciality' cakes......the baker does not have to provide them....

If the baker has a portfolio of photographs of cakes like these, does that not mean then that he does indeed produce these cakes? If a customer takes a photograph of a specific cake they would like, the baker is not under any obligation to try to produce a cake. Especially a cake beyond his skill, equipment and ingredients.

All same sex couples expect is the same level of service offered to everyone else. No law abiding, sober, responsible American citizen should be turned away because of who they are.

pictures of cakes are the cake ARTIST's portfolio.....art is subjective and cannot be forced....

Picture in a portfolio at a bakery are examples of the services provided. The baker WANTS to make the sale and the baker MAKES a portfolio to show off his expertise.

You seem to be picking fly shit out of ground pepper at this point.

 

[WorldWatcher]

must a butcher who sells regular meat provide kosher or halaal meat to those 'different' customers....?

No. Public Accommodation laws do not mandate what goods and services a business offers.

Public Accommodation laws require that if such goods and sevices were offerred (kosher or halall meets) then those goods and services cannot be denied based on the race, religion, national origin, sex, and in some states sexual orientation of the customer.

If the butcher doesn't stock kosher or halaal meets, they don't have to sell them to anyone. However if they do sell them, they cannot refuse to sell them to - say - an Chinese person because they are Chinese.

if he doesn't does that mean he is 'denying service to an immutable trait of his customer'......?

A trait doesn't have to be "immutable" to be valid under State Public Accommodation laws. Religion is not an "immutable" characteristic. Illinois, as an example, also lists veterans status (a non-immutable trait). Oregon, as an example, also lists marital status (a non-immutable trait) under it's PA laws.

See note above, since they are not required to sell kosher or halaal meets - your question is moot.

is the butcher 'denying freedom' to those Jewish and Muslim shoppers....?

No see first note, since they are not required to sell kosher or halaal meets - your question is moot.


>>>>

 

[WorldWatcher]

a generic wedding cake typically has one man - one woman figures on the top.....the baker would have to change his product to accommodate two gays or two lesbians...thus he would be getting into a specialty product....much like the Kosher or Halaal products...

1. Wedding cakes don't normally have "toppers" on them anymore, that's pretty old fashioned.

2. Here is the picture of a modern wedding cake. Is it for a different-sex couple wedding or a same-sex couple wedding?

>>>>