Ok, if it's not heredity...

[Kalam]

Hmmm... so when do we get to stop trying to pay for the sins of the past and move on?

When did we start? Reparations were never given out, and it's a bit late for that now.

Are we just looking for the right social program and haven't found it yet?

Probably. The solution is clear enough - improve public schools in impoverished areas. Doing that tends to be difficult, though. Funding to these areas needs to be increased, and oversight needs to be provided to prevent malfeasance on the part of corrupt school officials. Teachers need to be moved to inner-city schools and rural schools from wealthy suburban schools. Improve the schools, and I believe that the effects would be profound.

I ask this because I see people in my very poor neighborhood that drive around in their Mercedes Benzs with 22" wheels and mouth full of gold and it kinda seems like money isn't exactly the problem. it seems more like it's a subculture that has embraced a set of values that don't lead to living truly successful lives... unless you count dying young or going to prison as success.

Poverty and poor education also breed ignorance. If you've never been educated and don't know how to save and spend money properly, you're probably going to waste it on dumb crap like twenty-two's and grills.

 

[editec]

Let's assume for a moment that despite SOOOO many obvious physical differences between races that race has nothing to do with anything...

Then why DO we see differences in things like standardized testing, prison population, etc?

Yes, I have always wondered why on average Asians and Jews and Navaho Indians score higher on standard IQ tests than us White Folks.

I assume it's probably because, on average, Asians and Jews and Navaho Indians living in the USA are smarter than we White folk living here.

As to prison outcomes in the USA?

Seems pretty apparent to me that the greatest predictor of one's probability of going to prison was family wealth and the courts' attitude about the race and nature of the crime of the perp.

Why?

Do YOU have an alternate theory to explain why Blacks are so overrepresented in our prisons?

It wouldn't have anything to do with a theory that Blacks are by nature more criminal, would it?

Cause if it does, then please explain to me why in country club prisons (Like Danbury. CT for example) where they send rich people who did white collar, Federal crimes, those prisons are overrun with White folks and startlingly short of Black prisoners.

So does your race/theory conclude that White people are more prone to white collar crime than other races?

Just wondering, Amanada.

How do YOU explain this differences?

 

[dilloduck]

Probably. The solution is clear enough - improve public schools in impoverished areas. Doing that tends to be difficult, though. Funding to these areas needs to be increased, and oversight needs to be provided to prevent malfeasance on the part of corrupt school officials. Teachers need to be moved to inner-city schools and rural schools from wealthy suburban schools. Improve the schools, and I believe that the effects would be profound.

How can you improve schools without having the power to control the behavior of the students ?

 

[Anguille]

Hmmm... so when do we get to stop trying to pay for the sins of the past and move on? Are we just looking for the right social program and haven't found it yet?

I ask this because I see people in my very poor neighborhood that drive around in their Mercedes Benzs with 22" wheels and mouth full of gold and it kinda seems like money isn't exactly the problem. it seems more like it's a subculture that has embraced a set of values that don't lead to living truly successful lives... unless you count dying young or going to prison as success.

What color are these people, Amanda? You don't say. You do say they are poor. What age group are they? What sex? You do admit that it's a subculture but do you think it's a subculture that represents all people with the same shade of skin color?

 

[Anguille]

Education, huh? Well you know what they say about leading horses to water. Why do so many scholarships aimed at minority students go unclaimed? If people were clamoring to improve themselves through education no scholarships should ever go unclaimed.

Link?

 

[Anguille]

isnt this all fancy talk for...if stupid people breed? do we have more stupid people? i see no difference in the black crack head or the white meth addict.. it is a combo of all factors...breeding being the basic one..why is it we are willing to study the effects of breeding in animals but not in humans. you cannot take a stupid child and advance it with good enviroment..wont happen....when you have people with iq's boarding on mental retardation breeding then you will expland that pool....enivroment does play a lot but you do have to begin with an even playing field...

now before you go all to hell on me..about selective breeding being nazi shit and all..think about it..
just because a fact is not politically correct does not make it less of a fact...if stupid people breed you got more stupid people...i am not advocating any programs or anything ..just stating a basic fact...

How do you explain the fact that smart people give birth to stupid people too?

 

[Anguille]

Let's assume for a moment that despite SOOOO many obvious physical differences between races that race has nothing to do with anything...

Then why DO we see differences in things like standardized testing, prison population, etc?

Culture. Environment. That's it. Standardised testing is culturally biased. I used to think IQ tests were great until I failed them...okay just kidding, I didn't fail them, I just didn't come up as smart as I thought I was (anyone who uses that against me has been warned, I WILL savage you mercilessly). Now I don't like them because I understand how culturally biased they are.

Okay, waiting for the wingnuts to descend on the thread. Fill your minds you sonsa bitches

I came out way smarter on an IQ test than I actually am.

And way dumber on my SATs.

 

[Anguille]

Let's assume for a moment that despite SOOOO many obvious physical differences between races .... quote]

There is no human "race." Humans are a species.

Race is one of those concepts, like love, that mean whatever anyone wants them to mean.

 

[Anguille]

What is the diff then? I don't know, but I suspect it has something to do with embracing a culture that doesn't have respect for traditional measures of success.

What are traditional measures of success and are they valid ones?

 

[editec]

What is the diff then? I don't know, but I suspect it has something to do with embracing a culture that doesn't have respect for traditional measures of success.

What are traditional measures of success and are they valid ones?

The TRADITONAL measures of a successful person have been abandoned in my lifetime.

They USED TO BE getting a decent job, raising a family, being involed in your local community and being a stand up person.

NOW the only measure of one's success as a person seems to be based on how much money you have.

Hence the greediest people, the people who will run over any and everyone to make money are lionized as role models.

And now, we have the sick society to prove just how shallow those values really are, too, don't we?

 

[xsited1]

it is called envirnment and you can have an asian female have for of the same DNA markers with a white women than an asian man. Skin color only has to do with pigmentation and the amount of vitamin d your ancestors needed to absorb. Take sociology race and ethnic relations, it will explain it all.
The only reason people from african orgin have more of a chance of getting cycle cell anemia is because their ancestor developed an immunity to malaria and so on.

Environment is certainly a factor, but we are talking about groups of people that have been relatively isolated from one another for thousands of years. Take for instance, Asians. Now, sure, their skin color, body features, etc., are different from other races, but could it be possible that their brains are wired up differently from other races as well? I'm not saying this is good or bad, right or wrong, that they are smarter or dumber, etc. I'm just considering the possibility that there might be differences in brain function between races, whatever those might be. Unfortunately, this type of research is frowned upon by the world community, so there is a very limited amount of data.

it has to do with envirnment in all cases but I do think that can have an affect on geneics. If you have anyone in your family that was an alcoholic you are more likely to become an alcoholic. Just how if you have a history of cancer in your family you are more likely to get cancer.
Humans are more similar to each other than any other animal on the planet, when it comes to DNA it does not matter what ethnic group you belong to. I could have more of the same DNA characteristics to Oprah than The Bass does. That is why it always comes down to your envirnment. Asian people might be smarter and do better in some area but it comes down to the envirnment which I think can because of their ancestors envirnment and not even their's.
I wish I could remember the name of this documantary I watched in my sociology class last semister that explains it all and where these high school kids tested their DNA. Of course they went into thinking they would be more similar to someone of their own race in their class but in the end they were proven wrong. I will have to google!

We are essentially saying the same thing. As I said, "we are talking about groups of people that have been relatively isolated from one another for thousands of years." You could say their environment has been different from other groups so they have developed strengths and weaknesses that other groups do not have. So if we take a look at groups of people at this point in time, you'll find genetic differences.

 

[xotoxi]

Hmmm... so when do we get to stop trying to pay for the sins of the past and move on? Are we just looking for the right social program and haven't found it yet?

Who's paying for sins?

And who is advocating paying for sins?

Not me...unless paying for sins is investing in education.

I think education is the key...the only key...to everything.

And I truly don't think that education is an expensive investment...and of all investments we could make, it has the best return.

That's nice that you think that education is the key. I also believe that education is extremely important. However, it doesn't really answer the question Amanda asked. I realize that discussing genetic differences between races is taboo in our society, but there are genetic differences nonetheless. What would be nice is if people would stop silencing anyone with a genuine interest in studying genetic differences between groups of people. As it stands now, all anyone has to do is call someone a 'racist' and the conversation is over. Sad.

Are there genetic differences between the races?

Maybe not: Biological differences among races do not exist, WU research shows

If there are genetic differences, the differences are so miniscule, that it is non-applicable.

Any differences that exist between races is purely sociological.

 

[Truthmatters]

Let's assume for a moment that despite SOOOO many obvious physical differences between races that race has nothing to do with anything...

Then why DO we see differences in things like standardized testing, prison population, etc?

The physical differances dont matter do they?

Standardize testing is standardized to what you know not how well you can learn.

The prisons population is due to many factors the biggest one being the drug laws which prosecute drugs in a manner which cases black people to be charged with stiffer crimes for inner city drugs offenses.

When you throw in the facts of police profiling and where the poor are forced to live economically then you start to get the picture.

 

[strollingbones]

isnt this all fancy talk for...if stupid people breed? do we have more stupid people? i see no difference in the black crack head or the white meth addict.. it is a combo of all factors...breeding being the basic one..why is it we are willing to study the effects of breeding in animals but not in humans. you cannot take a stupid child and advance it with good enviroment..wont happen....when you have people with iq's boarding on mental retardation breeding then you will expland that pool....enivroment does play a lot but you do have to begin with an even playing field...

now before you go all to hell on me..about selective breeding being nazi shit and all..think about it..
just because a fact is not politically correct does not make it less of a fact...if stupid people breed you got more stupid people...i am not advocating any programs or anything ..just stating a basic fact...

Where is your evidence that stupidity is hereditary? And mental retardation isn't hereditary, btw.

As tempting as it would be to eliminate stupid people (republicans, for example) from the gene pool by preventing them from breeding, it would be both unconstitutional and it wouldn't work.

my only evidence is observation of breeding standards in dogs and then in humans...i never said mental retardation was hereditary...i am dealing with the stupid people..

and if you read what i said closely i never advocated anything other than the realizing breeding counts..

 

[xsited1]

Who's paying for sins?

And who is advocating paying for sins?

Not me...unless paying for sins is investing in education.

I think education is the key...the only key...to everything.

And I truly don't think that education is an expensive investment...and of all investments we could make, it has the best return.

That's nice that you think that education is the key. I also believe that education is extremely important. However, it doesn't really answer the question Amanda asked. I realize that discussing genetic differences between races is taboo in our society, but there are genetic differences nonetheless. What would be nice is if people would stop silencing anyone with a genuine interest in studying genetic differences between groups of people. As it stands now, all anyone has to do is call someone a 'racist' and the conversation is over. Sad.

Are there genetic differences between the races?

Maybe not: Biological differences among races do not exist, WU research shows

If there are genetic differences, the differences are so miniscule, that it is non-applicable.

Any differences that exist between races is purely sociological.

And I could post many other articles that dispute the one you posted. In the end, you would be able to post many more articles supporting your view because this subject is considered 'taboo' and even racist. (BTW, the WU research article is over 10 years old, so it would be considered out of date.)

You might find this book interesting. It's a quick read:

Intelligence: A Very Short Introduction
Ian J. Deary

 

[manifold]

If everyone was a genius, we'd all be average.

Funny how that works.

 

[manifold]

Race is one of those concepts, like love, that mean whatever anyone wants them to mean.

That's why I prefer "breed."

 

[Valerie]

Let's assume for a moment that despite SOOOO many obvious physical differences between races that race has nothing to do with anything...

Then why DO we see differences in things like standardized testing, prison population, etc?

Differences? Oh no!

An observation is not proof of causation. Malnourished children will do poorly on tests. Children of poverty tend to end up in prison. Therefore, black people are nothing but stupid criminals? Just look at them!

I don't think so.

It's not that race has nothing to do with anything, it just is what it is. It's probably more like the entire human race needs to overcome the reality of it's racial history and proceed to record some new observations.

Your response doesn't address what she posted.

There is no human "race." Humans are a species.

Of course the entire human race is not a race, and still the human race (or species if you choose to say it that way) needs to get over their racial history and proceed to record some new observations. My response is directly to the OP. Correlation does not prove causation.

despite SOOOO many obvious physical differences between races that race has nothing to do with anything...

Then why DO we see differences in things like standardized testing, prison population, etc?

 

[manifold]

I don't understand why many people can't seem to acknowledge that mental processes ARE physical. Just because mental processing is not easily observed, like say, running and jumping, doesn't mean it isn't physical. Ever see any documentaries on the workings of the brain? Sure there is a lot we don't understand, but one thing we have learned is that the brain functions via the physical transmission of electrochemical signals.

Now, nobody in their right mind would suggest that with enough training, you can turn an unathletic nerd into even a decent athlete, let alone an elite athlete. Yet seemingly intelligent people do apparently think that with enough training, you can turn the intellectually challenged into the intellectually gifted.

Sorry folks, but it's just not possible.

 

[Ravi]

isnt this all fancy talk for...if stupid people breed? do we have more stupid people? i see no difference in the black crack head or the white meth addict.. it is a combo of all factors...breeding being the basic one..why is it we are willing to study the effects of breeding in animals but not in humans. you cannot take a stupid child and advance it with good enviroment..wont happen....when you have people with iq's boarding on mental retardation breeding then you will expland that pool....enivroment does play a lot but you do have to begin with an even playing field...

now before you go all to hell on me..about selective breeding being nazi shit and all..think about it..
just because a fact is not politically correct does not make it less of a fact...if stupid people breed you got more stupid people...i am not advocating any programs or anything ..just stating a basic fact...

Where is your evidence that stupidity is hereditary? And mental retardation isn't hereditary, btw.

As tempting as it would be to eliminate stupid people (republicans, for example) from the gene pool by preventing them from breeding, it would be both unconstitutional and it wouldn't work.

my only evidence is observation of breeding standards in dogs and then in humans...i never said mental retardation was hereditary...i am dealing with the stupid people..

and if you read what i said closely i never advocated anything other than the realizing breeding counts..

Okay...but usually it is overbreeding that causes problems because you end up shrinking the gene pool. Ever been to West Virginia?