ok. I will ask. SunniMan.....

[Sunni Man]

As a discussion regarding Sharia Law is broader in focus than honor killing or the opinion of one poster, the European Court of Human Rights has clearly set forth their opinion about this subject.

"...in 2004 the European Court of Human Rights "found that sharia was incompatible with the fundamental principles of democracy… It considered that “sharia, which faithfully reflects the dogmas and divine rules laid down by religion, is stable and invariable. Principles such as pluralism in the political sphere or the constant evolution of public freedoms have no place in it. According to the Court, it was difficult to declare one’s respect for democracy and human rights while at the same time supporting a regime based on sharia, which clearly diverged from Convention values, particularly with regard to its criminal law and criminal procedure, its rules on the legal status of women and the way it intervened in all spheres of private and public life in accordance with religious precepts.”

Council of Europe - Conseil de l'Europe

I can assure you that muslims do not give a rat's ass what a European/Western court has to say about Sharia or other associated Islamic issues.

True story.......

Dear Sunni: the Muslims who are consistent with their faith follow the Christian scriptures which teach to respect human institutions and obey civil authority. So the true believers will listen and care what the civil authorities say. if there is disagreement, we are called to be witnesses to God's truth so corrections can be made. So if you are consistent with Muslim teachings you would know that natural laws come from God and civil authority should be consistent with natural laws. And either listen and obey, or where there is injustice, then take responsibility to correct the wrongs so the laws are consistent with what is natural.

If you do not obey the whole of the law, then you are hardly in a position to criticize Irish or any other Christians for doing the same. If you wish to pick and choose which parts of the law to enforce, please do not criticize her or others for doing that. You do the same thing.

European Courts are Not the civil authority over muslims or Islam in their countries.

It's is just another example of the Western nations trying to force their colonial mindset and norms on sovereign and independent people. ..

 

[there4eyeM]

As a discussion regarding Sharia Law is broader in focus than honor killing or the opinion of one poster, the European Court of Human Rights has clearly set forth their opinion about this subject.

"...in 2004 the European Court of Human Rights "found that sharia was incompatible with the fundamental principles of democracy… It considered that “sharia, which faithfully reflects the dogmas and divine rules laid down by religion, is stable and invariable. Principles such as pluralism in the political sphere or the constant evolution of public freedoms have no place in it. According to the Court, it was difficult to declare one’s respect for democracy and human rights while at the same time supporting a regime based on sharia, which clearly diverged from Convention values, particularly with regard to its criminal law and criminal procedure, its rules on the legal status of women and the way it intervened in all spheres of private and public life in accordance with religious precepts.”

Council of Europe - Conseil de l'Europe

I can assure you that muslims do not give a rat's ass what a European/Western court has to say about Sharia or other associated Islamic issues.

True story.......

You mean you're not offering yours?

 

[Connery]

I can assure you that muslims do not give a rat's ass what a European/Western court has to say about Sharia or other associated Islamic issues.

True story.......

Dear Sunni: the Muslims who are consistent with their faith follow the Christian scriptures which teach to respect human institutions and obey civil authority. So the true believers will listen and care what the civil authorities say. if there is disagreement, we are called to be witnesses to God's truth so corrections can be made. So if you are consistent with Muslim teachings you would know that natural laws come from God and civil authority should be consistent with natural laws. And either listen and obey, or where there is injustice, then take responsibility to correct the wrongs so the laws are consistent with what is natural.

If you do not obey the whole of the law, then you are hardly in a position to criticize Irish or any other Christians for doing the same. If you wish to pick and choose which parts of the law to enforce, please do not criticize her or others for doing that. You do the same thing.

European Courts are Not the civil authority over muslims or Islam in their countries.

It's is just another example of the Western nations trying to force their colonial mindset and norms on sovereign and independent people. ..

Baloney. That was an objective assessment into what sharia law is about. Further, the US has refused to allow sharia law into the court system as a matter of law. Sunni once again you show that you simply cannot deal with various truths about sharia law.

 

[Lipush]

Do you agree with Sharia law? I asked you once before, a few years ago...if you would be able to stand and watch or participate someone being stoned to death..and you said yes. Do you still stand by that opinion? Also, do you agree with honor killings?

There. It's been asked in a different thread than the one below. I DO appreciate you taking the time to post what other muslims are doing in support of the bombing victims. Now I am asking what your thoughts are on Sharia.

Do all muslims have to abide by sharia in order to be muslim? Or can they be against it and still be muslim?

http://www.usmessageboard.com/religion-and-ethics/290680-i-m-muslim-and-i-hate-terrorism-3.html

Gracie, why not ask if all Jews have to abide by Talmudic law in order to be Jews?

There is no such thing as Talmudic law...

 

[Lipush]

Do you agree with Sharia law? I asked you once before, a few years ago...if you would be able to stand and watch or participate someone being stoned to death..and you said yes. Do you still stand by that opinion? Also, do you agree with honor killings?

There. It's been asked in a different thread than the one below. I DO appreciate you taking the time to post what other muslims are doing in support of the bombing victims. Now I am asking what your thoughts are on Sharia.

Do all muslims have to abide by sharia in order to be muslim? Or can they be against it and still be muslim?

http://www.usmessageboard.com/religion-and-ethics/290680-i-m-muslim-and-i-hate-terrorism-3.html

Gracie, why not ask if all Jews have to abide by Talmudic law in order to be Jews? Do all Hindus have to abide by Vedic law? Do all Christians have to abide by Mosiac law?

The answer is not in the least. Those ancient laws have been superceded. Certainly individuals can choose to live by them as long as they do not clash with civil laws. Under the laws of Moses you were allowed to not only own slaves but also to kill them. Do you expect modern Christians to agree with those laws?

Christians never ever have had to abide by those laws in the OT.

 

[Lipush]

Do you agree with Sharia law? I asked you once before, a few years ago...if you would be able to stand and watch or participate someone being stoned to death..and you said yes. Do you still stand by that opinion? Also, do you agree with honor killings?

There. It's been asked in a different thread than the one below. I DO appreciate you taking the time to post what other muslims are doing in support of the bombing victims. Now I am asking what your thoughts are on Sharia.

Do all muslims have to abide by sharia in order to be muslim? Or can they be against it and still be muslim?

http://www.usmessageboard.com/religion-and-ethics/290680-i-m-muslim-and-i-hate-terrorism-3.html

Gracie, why not ask if all Jews have to abide by Talmudic law in order to be Jews? Do all Hindus have to abide by Vedic law? Do all Christians have to abide by Mosiac law?

The answer is not in the least. Those ancient laws have been superceded. Certainly individuals can choose to live by them as long as they do not clash with civil laws. Under the laws of Moses you were allowed to not only own slaves but also to kill them. Do you expect modern Christians to agree with those laws?

1) The Torah laws are not ancient.They still apply to jews.

2) There is no such thing as Talmudic law. All jews law comes from the five books of Moses.

3) Part of jewish law is to conform to the law of the land. Therefore, jews in America are supposed to keep American law.

4) Back in the old times people could have slaves. It was very common.

However, jewish law treated slaves much different.

If you had one pillow you were supposed to give it to the slave.

Jewish law treated slaves in an extremely human way.

5) You should consider that you are making statements about something you know nothing about.

6)

 

[Lipush]

Who believes sharia is consistent with the Constitution now?

It's not. Neither is Mosaic Law. Need to distinguish between, Value, Principle, and Ideal, as opposed to Dogma. Who establishes Justice without Partiality, Favor, or Exception?
There is God, and there is what we perceive, from a very limited perspective. Seeking to establish, serve, and defend Justice, is only the foundation in finding harmony and Communion with our Maker. Missteps come all to easy, regardless of intent. We constantly think in absolutes,while missing parts of the equation.

Jewish law is consistent with the Constitution, because part of jewish law is to keep the law of the land that you are in.

Exactly.

Dina d'malchuta dina

 

[Dajjal]

Hey Sunni Man, How the hell did you end up as a muslim in the first place, and why are you still one when you have read my posts pointing out the qurans obvious flaws?

The quran obviously says the earth is flat, and the sun orbits it in a semi circle and is reset every dawn.
See sura 36.38

 

[Sunni Man]

Hey Sunni Man, How the hell did you end up as a muslim in the first place, and why are you still one when you have read my posts pointing out the qurans obvious flaws?

The quran obviously says the earth is flat, and the sun orbits it in a semi circle and is reset every dawn.
See sura 36.38

The Quran has no flaws in either content or description of the universe.

The problem is that you are using a translation from arabic to english in order to make your case.

And no, the Quran does't say the earth is flat and the other nonsense you claim.

I have addressed this issue before.......

 

[Lipush]

The Qur'an DOES say that Jews believe prophet Ezra is son of God.

What up with that?

 

[Dajjal]

Hey Sunni Man, How the hell did you end up as a muslim in the first place, and why are you still one when you have read my posts pointing out the qurans obvious flaws?

The quran obviously says the earth is flat, and the sun orbits it in a semi circle and is reset every dawn.
See sura 36.38

The Quran has no flaws in either content or description of the universe.

The problem is that you are using a translation from arabic to english in order to make your case.

And no, the Quran does't say the earth is flat and the other nonsense you claim.

I have addressed this issue before.......

No you have'nt you have just ignored my logic. Let the forum judge if the following reasoning makes sense.

when the quran says, at sura 21.33 and 36.40 and 36.38 that the sun has an orbit, Imams claim this is a great revelation, because Muhammad knew the sun had an orbit in the galaxy. But the quran is actually saying the sun orbits the flat earth and is reset every dawn , and I can prove it with the following hadith.

Hadith Bukhari Volume 4, Book 54, Number 421:
Narrated Abu Dhar:

The Prophet asked me at sunset, "Do you know where the sun goes (at the time of sunset)?" I replied, "Allah and His Apostle know better." He said, "It goes (i.e. travels) till it prostrates Itself underneath the Throne and takes the permission to rise again, and it is permitted and then (a time will come when) it will be about to prostrate itself but its prostration will not be accepted, and it will ask permission to go on its course but it will not be permitted, but it will be ordered to return whence it has come and so it will rise in the west. And that is the interpretation of the Statement of Allah: "And the sun Runs its fixed course For a term (decreed). that is The Decree of (Allah) The Exalted in Might, The All-Knowing." (36.38)

As can be seen it says that if the sun changed direction it would rise in the west. But if the sun changed direction in its orbit in the galaxy it would make no difference to the sun rising in the east, because it is the rotation of the earth that causes the appearance of the sun in the east. So this proves that the claim the quran says the sun has an orbit in the galaxy is wrong. The Hadith is clearly saying the sun orbits the earth, and so is the quran, at sura 36.38

Hadith Bukhari and Hadith Muslim are widely regarded as authentic by muslims, so there is no way out of the logic of my argument. The quran is bunk.

 

[there4eyeM]

Dear Sunni: the Muslims who are consistent with their faith follow the Christian scriptures which teach to respect human institutions and obey civil authority. So the true believers will listen and care what the civil authorities say. if there is disagreement, we are called to be witnesses to God's truth so corrections can be made. So if you are consistent with Muslim teachings you would know that natural laws come from God and civil authority should be consistent with natural laws. And either listen and obey, or where there is injustice, then take responsibility to correct the wrongs so the laws are consistent with what is natural.

If you do not obey the whole of the law, then you are hardly in a position to criticize Irish or any other Christians for doing the same. If you wish to pick and choose which parts of the law to enforce, please do not criticize her or others for doing that. You do the same thing.

European Courts are Not the civil authority over muslims or Islam in their countries.

It's is just another example of the Western nations trying to force their colonial mindset and norms on sovereign and independent people. ..

Baloney. That was an objective assessment into what sharia law is about. Further, the US has refused to allow sharia law into the court system as a matter of law. Sunni once again you show that you simply cannot deal with various truths about sharia law.

Or truth in general.

 

[Dajjal]

Further more the quran does say the heaven and earth were created in six days. In spite of Muslims claiming that the Arabic word for day means an undetermined period. Because the quran is saying the same thing as the bible, which was not written in Arabic but Aramic and Hebrew and Greek.

Clearly the Quran creation myth is stolen from the bible, because it says the same thing as the bible and they are both wrong.

 

[there4eyeM]

The Koran says Jesus is just a prophet. Since this cannot be, the Koran is in error.

 

[Dajjal]

The Koran says Jesus is just a prophet. Since this cannot be, the Koran is in error.

More than that, it says Jesus was not crucified. That would mean that a large portion of all four new testament Gospel books are completely fabricated.

 

[Book of Jeremiah]

Do all Christians have to abide by Mosiac law?

WHAT?????
Christians are not and never have been under Mosiac Law! Not even the top ten! Those laws were given to the Jews because they said they could handle things without God's forgiving grace. So He gave them over 600 rules to live by and 3,000 of them dropped dead on the spot.
Laws depend on man's ability. Life depends on Christ's ability.

Sunni, Christians are not opposed to the Ten Commandments but we are certainly not under the condemnation of them either. A Jew is, but a Christian is not. Whether or not we keep them has nothing to do with our salvation.
Our salvation is not a reward for good behavior, it is a gift in spite of our bad behavior.


And the catch you missed Gracie was:

What I had said before; was that stoning is the method of execution for criminals...........

Ask him what Muslims consider "a crime".
Wasn't it you that posted the picture of the Muslim girl with no nose at another forum? What was her crime again? Or the little girl whose crime was wanting to go to school. The one they raped and shot in the head on the bus. Or the little girl whose father brought her to America, and then ran her over and killed her, because she started acting American. Or the girl they buried and stoned to death because her brother raped a woman and the woman's family demanded honor.

You can take a Muslim out of Sharia Law, but you can't take Sharia Law out of the Muslim. The Qur'an is a religious, and a governing mechanism. It is always severe. The extent of severity varies.

I believe you are a very knowledgable Christian, Ram. I'm sure you could probably teach at your church. It is no secret I spent most my christian life studying Old Testament which is Torah - I have not studied the New Testament nearly so much as many of you all probably. Nevertheless I am concerned about some teachings I've heard in recent times.

I have watched tv and seen many of these new evangelists speak of what you are speaking about. Joseph Prince, Joel Osteen and quite a few others. This friend of mine came to my house some time ago and said great news! The Jews were given ten commandments - not christians - we are not under the law and are no longer under judgment. We are forgiven for every sin we will ever commit until day we die!!

I thought, according to that logic everyone from Mother Theresa to Jack The Ripper will be in heaven. How can that be?

What about the scripture, If you love me, keep my commandments. Jesus didn't say, Look! I'm the Jew here, these are My Commandments, not yours........ some of my followers who are going to be gentiles? Don't bother! You aren't Jewish...... so I'll keep the ten commandments for you. No, he told you to keep them. He doesn't need to keep them, we do!

Remember the scripture in the New Testament that says, Without holiness, no one will see the LORD? That is the truth. G-d isn't grading on a curve here. Jesus said it is a narrow path that leads to heaven and few will ever find it, there is a wide road which seems right but leads to hell.

Please understand this is my opinion and you probably won't hear a preacher say this today but........... I believe the Grace message as taught by Joseph Prince, Joel Osteen and others is going to send more Christians to hell than ever before. These are what I consider to be Wide Road Preachers.

It is a very dangerous message to think you can live anyway you wish and get heaven in the end. It is a very dangerous message to say forget 10 commandments, you are not Jewish, who needs those? G-d is the same yesterday, today and forever. G-d changes not.

The Hebrew prophets feared G-d so greatly they wouldn't dare make a move without G-d telling them first. They wouldn't speak Thus sayeth the Lord, unless the Lord spoke.

Not so for this new movement that has emerged among the evangelicals. They are the I've got a word crowd. Prophecy flows from them day and night yet no one confronts them that they are prophesying out of the imaginations of their own mind. When they haven't got a word, they've had a dream. I've had a dream they say. Then they claim G-d gave them the dream!

The prophet Jeremiah warned us against such things. I believe what I am witnessing is the great falling away right now. The people have itching ears and have gathered unto themselves false teachers who appeal to their flesh and carnality.

I find no preparation being made for persecution of the church, no preparation being made for the hard times ahead. Only pampering the flesh which is making it ripe for hell. What the church needs is the Cross - not a rolex and a Bentley. Jesus said, If any man would come after me, let him deny himself, take up his cross and follow me. That is the Gospel. Denying yourself of your own will in exchange for his, taking up your troubles and not complaining over them and walking as Jesus walked while on the earth.

The bible says without holiness no one will see the Lord. When I study Torah I see throughout the holiness of G-d and that He does not wink at sin. Not at all. G-d of Israel is Holy, Holy, Holy. The fear of the LORD is the beginning of Wisdom. I do not see the Fear of the Lord in this latest popular message some within the church espouse. I do not find it to align with Holy Scriptures.

I am a Christian, I pray to the G-d of Israel and I pray to Him IN the name of Jesus, It is through Jesus Name I come to petition Him, praise Him, Worship Him. I'm not Jewish but I do want to keep the Commandments and when I break one I repent - to G-d - against you only have I sinned O LORD - David prayed.

If you look at what Jesus taught us you'll see He was very clear as to who was going to make it into Heaven. Those that Endure Until The End, the Same shall be Saved.

I know this Joseph Prince crowd doesn't believe it is possible to lose their salvation but they are wrong. There will be many Christians in hell. Preachers preaching their Wide Road message will be down there with them.

I think I will stick with the Hebrew prophets - they have been very good teachers to me and I'm going to expect the worst and hope for the best. I believe that is what the Grace of G-d is about. His grace is what gives me the strength to endure until the end. Whatever trial or tribulation that may be. That is what G-ds Grace means to me.

 

[Sunni Man]

Hey Sunni Man, How the hell did you end up as a muslim in the first place, and why are you still one when you have read my posts pointing out the qurans obvious flaws?

The quran obviously says the earth is flat, and the sun orbits it in a semi circle and is reset every dawn.
See sura 36.38

The Quran has no flaws in either content or description of the universe.

The problem is that you are using a translation from arabic to english in order to make your case.

And no, the Quran does't say the earth is flat and the other nonsense you claim.

I have addressed this issue before.......

No you have'nt you have just ignored my logic.

Your so called logic doesn't mean squat.......

 

[Dajjal]

Oh yea! I offer my posts about the quran to the forum for their conclusions.

Here is some more logic. The quran says if it were not from God you would find in it, contradictions.
The quran goes on to say God is merciful. Then it gives lots of verses that say God will burn unbelievers in eternal hellfire. What is merciful about that? A clear and absolute contradiction.

Even in the valley of the shadow of death two and two do not make six, Leo Tolstoy.

 

[t_polkow]

The Koran says Jesus is just a prophet. Since this cannot be, the Koran is in error.

More than that, it says Jesus was not crucified. That would mean that a large portion of all four new testament Gospel books are completely fabricated.

It is

Forgeries in the Bible's New Testament? : Discovery News

 

[Book of Jeremiah]

Sunni, the book of Imran is flawed because your prophet refers to Mary the Mother of Jesus as Moses sister ( Miriam ) it is quite clear in the text that he is speaking about Aaron and his sister yet he goes into Moses sister having an angel appear to her to tell her she'd have a child. Jesus! There is a 1600 yr gap. So yes, that was a very obvious mistake. - Jeri