Obama says Obamacare is the law of the land but so was..

[NYcarbineer]

So is the border fence

-Geaux

Who's threatening to shut down the government if the border fence isn't torn down?

that's not the point. The point is supporters of Obamacare using the 'law' as an excuse not to negotiate, really have no basis for such an argument when we have laws unenforced. Obama should have the same passion for all laws, not just the socialist ones

-Geaux

The Republicans are employing a hostage/blackmail (take your pick) strategy.

The Democrats cannot let them succeed with that and establish that as a legitimate governing strategy.

As a more practical matter,

the Democrats cannot agree to a 1 year delay of the mandate under this sort of threat for the simple reason that the GOP cannot guarantee they will not be back in a year, with the same threat,

demanding another delay.

 

[Redfish]

How long has the law been on the books?

3 years. But only now are the people being told what it will do to them personally. Up to now its all been lies and rhetoric-----"you can keep your policy" "you can keep your doctor" "it will save you $2500/year" "it will reduce the deficit" all lies.

The law has been on the books, and therefore available for all to see and read, for 3 years.

There is no 'only now' about it.

Do you really think that the average american will read and understand 3000 pages of legalize and govt double talk?

Why do you think the unions have come out so strongly against it, after campaigning for it? Answer: they found out what it was going to do to their members. Duh

 

[NYcarbineer]

The 2nd Amendment is the law of the land.

But so was slavery.



...see what I just did?

Good one. Not to be a topper but I used that exact analogy earlier in the week when these people tried this same exact argument in another thread.

But since we're not dealing with logical rational people, don't expect any logical rational attempts at rebuttal.

 

[Redfish]

Who's threatening to shut down the government if the border fence isn't torn down?

that's not the point. The point is supporters of Obamacare using the 'law' as an excuse not to negotiate, really have no basis for such an argument when we have laws unenforced. Obama should have the same passion for all laws, not just the socialist ones

-Geaux

The Republicans are employing a hostage/blackmail (take your pick) strategy.

The Democrats cannot let them succeed with that and establish that as a legitimate governing strategy.

As a more practical matter,

the Democrats cannot agree to a 1 year delay of the mandate under this sort of threat for the simple reason that the GOP cannot guarantee they will not be back in a year, with the same threat,

demanding another delay.

How do you know that obama won't grant another delay to his big business cronies? How do you know he won't give the unions an exemption?

this is terrible legislation. It needs to be fixed before it destroys our economy and our medical system.

 

[mudwhistle]

Are you seriously comparing slavery to affordable health care?

Tell me honestly, if it were a GOP Pres and Senate and a Dem House, would you support the minority party shutting down the government to force legislation they didn't have the votes for?

Isn't Obamacare a form of slavery?

We're gonna be stuck paying for it for the rest of our lives.

 

[NYcarbineer]

3 years. But only now are the people being told what it will do to them personally. Up to now its all been lies and rhetoric-----"you can keep your policy" "you can keep your doctor" "it will save you $2500/year" "it will reduce the deficit" all lies.

The law has been on the books, and therefore available for all to see and read, for 3 years.

There is no 'only now' about it.

Do you really think that the average american will read and understand 3000 pages of legalize and govt double talk?

Why do you think the unions have come out so strongly against it, after campaigning for it? Answer: they found out what it was going to do to their members. Duh

You're arguing for anarchy. No sane person wants anarchy.

 

[eagle1462010]

You know as I was reading section 22 paragraph 2, item 18 clause 9 of subsection 3 refering to item 20 of section 10 referencing me to paragraph 5, that it referred me to article 9 of Section 2 paragraph 8 to explain the issue, but again stated you must reference Sections 8, 8 and 12 and it's writings to understand the real impact of the law...................

Easy reading law. Just go to the library and lay out all the books on a large table and navigate.

 

[NYcarbineer]

that's not the point. The point is supporters of Obamacare using the 'law' as an excuse not to negotiate, really have no basis for such an argument when we have laws unenforced. Obama should have the same passion for all laws, not just the socialist ones

-Geaux

The Republicans are employing a hostage/blackmail (take your pick) strategy.

The Democrats cannot let them succeed with that and establish that as a legitimate governing strategy.

As a more practical matter,

the Democrats cannot agree to a 1 year delay of the mandate under this sort of threat for the simple reason that the GOP cannot guarantee they will not be back in a year, with the same threat,

demanding another delay.

How do you know that obama won't grant another delay to his big business cronies? How do you know he won't give the unions an exemption?

this is terrible legislation. It needs to be fixed before it destroys our economy and our medical system.

Delaying implementation of elements of a complex law is the right of the administrators of the law. That has been decided in the courts.

Again, the Democrats cannot capitulate to the blackmailers. The GOP made a very bad mistake here by resorting to blackmail, or hostage taking,

to try to get their way. They have to be held to account for that choice of action. They cannot be given validation on the use of blackmail or hostage taking.

 

[Redfish]

The Republicans are employing a hostage/blackmail (take your pick) strategy.

The Democrats cannot let them succeed with that and establish that as a legitimate governing strategy.

As a more practical matter,

the Democrats cannot agree to a 1 year delay of the mandate under this sort of threat for the simple reason that the GOP cannot guarantee they will not be back in a year, with the same threat,

demanding another delay.

How do you know that obama won't grant another delay to his big business cronies? How do you know he won't give the unions an exemption?

this is terrible legislation. It needs to be fixed before it destroys our economy and our medical system.

Delaying implementation of elements of a complex law is the right of the administrators of the law. That has been decided in the courts.

Again, the Democrats cannot capitulate to the blackmailers. The GOP made a very bad mistake here by resorting to blackmail, or hostage taking,

to try to get their way. They have to be held to account for that choice of action. They cannot be given validation on the use of blackmail or hostage taking.

First of all, the govt shutdown (15% of the govt) was done by obama, the GOP house members do not have that power.'

second, the house has tried several compromise attempts, but reid and obama have said "my way or no way". That is not the way our govt works. we do not live in a monarchy of dictatorship.

the shutdown is solely on obama and reid. They are not doing their constitutional duties and they will be the losers in the end.

 

[Redfish]

The law has been on the books, and therefore available for all to see and read, for 3 years.

There is no 'only now' about it.

Do you really think that the average american will read and understand 3000 pages of legalize and govt double talk?

Why do you think the unions have come out so strongly against it, after campaigning for it? Answer: they found out what it was going to do to their members. Duh

You're arguing for anarchy. No sane person wants anarchy.

Sorry, dude, but its not anarchy when the people hold the government responsible for its actions and demand that problems be fixed. That, my little friend, is freedom and democracy.

our system works, sometimes its painful (as now) but it is working the way it was designed to work.

You, however, seem to want anarchy by presidential dictate. I cannot believe any sane person would support what obama is trying to do.

 

[Hoffstra]

fine, delay the Individual Mandate for one year..and one year only.

but that's it. is it a deal?

 

[Caroljo]

Obama says Obamacare is the law of the land . So where other things like Slavery, segregation, prohibing, women's suffrage, prohibition, DOMA And all those laws were changed. So ,do you libs want to go back and put all these laws back into place since it WAS the law of the land in history. I sure dont but since you are so hell bent saying this is the LAW Of the LAND so were all of these

How were those laws changed?

(oh, just a historical note, with possibly the exception of prohibition, every one of those changes was opposed by the conservatives of those times.)

Conservatives of "those times" are the Democrats of today.

 

[regent]

3 years. But only now are the people being told what it will do to them personally. Up to now its all been lies and rhetoric-----"you can keep your policy" "you can keep your doctor" "it will save you $2500/year" "it will reduce the deficit" all lies.

The law has been on the books, and therefore available for all to see and read, for 3 years.

There is no 'only now' about it.

Do you really think that the average american will read and understand 3000 pages of legalize and govt double talk?

Why do you think the unions have come out so strongly against it, after campaigning for it? Answer: they found out what it was going to do to their members. Duh

With a Republic citizens are not required to read bills before they are voted upon, that is our representative's job. But even our representatives do not read every bill, they in turn ask one of their committee's to read the bill, and recommend a yes or no vote for passage.
I wonder what percentage of bills are never read, except in committee? The committees are the biggie and at one time the committee chairman, based on seniority, was even a bigger biggie.

 

[Seawytch]

Yes, its law.

congress is not obligated to fund every law, they are obligated to create a budget that sets priorities in funding based on revenue

65-70% of americans do not want ACA

Only 15% of the govt is shut down and that was done by Obama, because he and the senate dems have refused to do their jobs and work to find a compromise with the house.

The real reason that obama will not agree to a 1 year delay is because even he knows that if the people have another year to learn how bad this law is, they will reject in completely. He is trying to ram in home before the country finds out what it really is.

Link for your 65-70% bullshit. The majority DO NOT want repeal or shutdown.

The GOP orchestrated the shutdown weeks ago, telegraphed their intentions and now are "gleeful" that it is done. They are also shouldering the majority of the blame as they should. This "blame the President lie" is akin to one sibling pushing the other into the table, knocking over and breaking the lamp and saying "look what you did".

The country is finding out what it "really is"...and it's saving them money.

here's one from CBS.

Majority of Americans oppose Obamacare, want it repealed, poll finds - National Government | Examiner.com

in all but 3 or 4 states, the annual premiums are going up significantly, and the coverage is less than what they had before, large deductibles, limitations of types of testing etc.

If a poor person gets a policy, the premium is subsidized by the govt, but the policy has a 10K deductible, who do you think is going to pay the 10K? not the poor person, you and me, just like we do now. But under obozocare we will also have to pay for a huge govt beaurocracy.

You have a problem with numbers. There was nothing close to the numbers you spouted in that poll from July. 39% to 34% and 54% dislike (which includes people who want it expanded?)? That's not 65-70%. Eat more carrots.

 

[C_Clayton_Jones]

Obama says Obamacare is the law of the land . So where other things like Slavery, segregation, prohibing, women's suffrage, prohibition, DOMA And all those laws were changed. So ,do you libs want to go back and put all these laws back into place since it WAS the law of the land in history. I sure dont but since you are so hell bent saying this is the LAW Of the LAND so were all of these

The stupidity of the OP and other conservatives knows no bounds.

There was already a failed thread concerning the ACA/’slavery’ nonsense.

This thread is just as much an ignorant failure.

This ‘argument’ is a fallacy because it compares two completely different issues, one having nothing to do with the other.

That one perceives a given law as being ‘bad’ or ‘wrong’ doesn’t mitigate its legitimacy until such time as it’s repealed by Congress or invalidated by the courts.

Moreover, issues such as slavery and segregation were addressed in accordance with the Constitution, unlike what conservatives advocate with regard to the ACA, where slavery was ended by amending the Constitution and laws enforcing segregation were struck down by the courts.

Conservatives have had their day in court and failed, and they’ve failed time again and again to repeal the Act; if they want to attempt to amend the Constitution to end the ACA they’re at liberty to do so.

But the ACA is for now the law of the land, its fate has nothing to do with whether the government is funded or not, and it has nothing to do with whether the government can pay its debts or not. As settled and accepted Federal law, in effect for three years now, there is nothing compelling the president to ‘negotiate’ because there is indeed nothing for the president to ‘negotiate.’

The ACA was created by Congress and only Congress can amend or repeal the Act.

 

[rdean]

Are you seriously comparing slavery to affordable health care?

Tell me honestly, if it were a GOP Pres and Senate and a Dem House, would you support the minority party shutting down the government to force legislation they didn't have the votes for?

Worse, we had a civil war, death, torture, deadly demonstrations when it came to those issues. And all of them were to stop evil. Somehow, these Republicans see Americans having healthcare as "evil".

You wonder if these Republicans even understand what women went through for the right to vote. The women thrown into prison and force fed. Not to mention slavery. And look at the unbelievable number of stories of gays who were murdered in and out of our military and their lives that were ruined.

When you say Conservatives support evil, they become outraged. And yet, who were blacks and women and gays and other minorities fighting if it wasn't conservatives?

 

[eagle1462010]

Obama says Obamacare is the law of the land . So where other things like Slavery, segregation, prohibing, women's suffrage, prohibition, DOMA And all those laws were changed. So ,do you libs want to go back and put all these laws back into place since it WAS the law of the land in history. I sure dont but since you are so hell bent saying this is the LAW Of the LAND so were all of these

The stupidity of the OP and other conservatives knows no bounds.

There was already a failed thread concerning the ACA/’slavery’ nonsense.

This thread is just as much an ignorant failure.

This ‘argument’ is a fallacy because it compares two completely different issues, one having nothing to do with the other.

That one perceives a given law as being ‘bad’ or ‘wrong’ doesn’t mitigate its legitimacy until such time as it’s repealed by Congress or invalidated by the courts.

Moreover, issues such as slavery and segregation were addressed in accordance with the Constitution, unlike what conservatives advocate with regard to the ACA, where slavery was ended by amending the Constitution and laws enforcing segregation were struck down by the courts.

Conservatives have had their day in court and failed, and they’ve failed time again and again to repeal the Act; if they want to attempt to amend the Constitution to end the ACA they’re at liberty to do so.

But the ACA is for now the law of the land, its fate has nothing to do with whether the government is funded or not, and it has nothing to do with whether the government can pay its debts or not. As settled and accepted Federal law, in effect for three years now, there is nothing compelling the president to ‘negotiate’ because there is indeed nothing for the president to ‘negotiate.’

The ACA was created by Congress and only Congress can amend or repeal the Act.

And the Congress has a responsibility to pay for their laws, without putting us in debt to the next universe............

The debt ceiling is about INCREASING BORROWING to pay for our Bloated Gov't. If the Gov't was Fiscally Responsible then the LAW wouldn't be in question at all. When we run out of money to pay the bills we must...................

1. Find means to cut or ways to tax to pay the bills.
2. Continue to borrow to put off the tough decisions for another day.

You are on one side of the equation or the other. I stand on the side that states we are out of control and need to Balance the budget. I stand on the side that believes we don't need new programs that increase the cost of Gov't when we can't pay the bills already.

In this instance, the power of the purse can be used to FORCE GOV'T to control it's spending. Capping it, and to argue the continued BORROWING POLICY OF THE FED.

Thus we must PRIORITIZE our bills. Which is more important...................

Obviously, maintaining the Medicare System to prevent it's insolvency is not an issue with the Dems. They STEAL MONEY FROM THE PROGRAM that is going broke, and then DEMAND EXPANSION OF MEDICAID that IS GOING BROKE.

So, the Budget and Ceiling issue is a different animal from Obamacare. It is about fiscal issues and deciding WHAT BILLS TO PAY AND WHAT NOT TO PAY.

It's about forced cutting to the Federal Gov't to stop the Borrowing Process.

Obamacare is last on the list of gov't laws. Medicare and Medicaid take priority over Obamacare in paying the bills.

Either find a way to cut or pay the bills, or this process will continue.

It's time to cut up the GOLD CARD that continues to put us into deeper debt.

 

[C_Clayton_Jones]

Yes , Because Obama is forcing US who do not want it do so something we do not want to do. Just like Slavery..

Because forcing someone to spend a few bucks and do a sensible thing is just like working 16 hours a day in the blazing sun picking cotton for no pay.

Do you people really expect to be taken seriously with that argument?

It's against the constitution to FORCE anyone to buy something they don't want or get taxed (fined) for it if they don't. And yes it can be compared to slavery...people are being forced against their will to do something they don't want to do. But all Lovebear was saying is just because it's a law, doesn't mean it can't be changed.

Another ignorant conservative chimes in.

Please cite the actual language in the ACA where one is ‘forced’ to buy anything. Please cite the actual language in the ACA where one is subject to criminal prosecution and ‘fined.’

Congress has appropriately used its taxing authority, as sanctioned by the Constitution, to encourage the purchasing of health insurance, as it has done in the past with other similar measures:

Whether the mandate can be upheld under the Commerce Clause is a question about the scope of federal authority. Its answer depends on whether Congress can exercise what all acknowledge to be the novel course of directing individuals to purchase insurance. Congress’s use of the Taxing Clause to encourage buying something is, by contrast, not new. Tax incentives already promote, for example, purchasing homes and professional educations. See 26 U. S. C. §§163(h), 25A. Sustaining the mandate as a tax depends only on whether Congress has properly exercised its taxing power to encourage purchasing health insurance, not whether it can. Upholding the individual mandate under the Taxing Clause thus does not recognize any new federal power. It determines that Congress has used an existing one.

NATIONAL FEDERATION OF INDEPENDENT BUSINESS v. SEBELIUS | Supreme Court | LII / Legal Information Institute

Clearly opposition to the ACA is purely partisan, having nothing to do whatsoever with the facts or merits of the Act.

And no one is arguing that the ACA can’t be changed; again, conservatives are at liberty to attempt to change or repeal the Act through any appropriate, Constitutional means they wish – that they’ve failed to do so, however, is not justification for the radical right to hold the country hostage by shutting down the government and threatening its economic well being.

 

[regent]

Obama says Obamacare is the law of the land . So where other things like Slavery, segregation, prohibing, women's suffrage, prohibition, DOMA And all those laws were changed. So ,do you libs want to go back and put all these laws back into place since it WAS the law of the land in history. I sure dont but since you are so hell bent saying this is the LAW Of the LAND so were all of these

Obamacare can be removed using the same Constitutional processes as were used on the evils you mention; until it is removed by a Constitutional process, however, Obamacare is the law of the land.

 

[eagle1462010]

Obama says Obamacare is the law of the land . So where other things like Slavery, segregation, prohibing, women's suffrage, prohibition, DOMA And all those laws were changed. So ,do you libs want to go back and put all these laws back into place since it WAS the law of the land in history. I sure dont but since you are so hell bent saying this is the LAW Of the LAND so were all of these

Obamacare can be removed using the same Constitutional processes as were used on the evils you mention; until it is removed by a Constitutional process, however, Obamacare is the law of the land.

Yes Obamacare is the law of the land. No problem with that statement.

Here's the problem. Our Gov't is out of funds again, and again, and again..........

Since we are out of money and borrowing our asses off, we need to cut spending and or raise revenues to sustain the Gov't.

The Debt Ceiling is about the debt, and what the Gov't believes need to be done to lower the debt. Obamacare is simply another new budget that is included with all the laws has to be paid.

Find a way to pay the bills or risk losing funding.