Obama actually did lose Iraq, Graham explains the negotiations.

[Deleted member 53821]

I think Iraq is going as well as can be expected. It was going to be difficult from the beginning and long....did we say long....anyone who thought we would be there a while was completely correct.

 

[JakeStarkey]

We had no business being in Iraq, we have none now, we have none in the future.

 

[kaz]

It is not as if the U.S. ever really 'held' Iraq. The illegal invasion wasn't even a declared war; the cowards in Congress didn't have the integrity to do it. The entire adventure was doomed to be nothing but loss. All responsible, all who initiated and voted for it, were either fools or traitors, ignorant of history and international repercussions. We are paying the price, and will continue to, as was the plan of those behind it.
Of course Obama mishandled it. He isn't particularly a genius, and even a genius would have been hard put to redeem the situation. There was no good way forward from the time the Bush League started this mess.

I like how you write a reasonable piece then still at the end let Obama off the hook again anyway. It was both parties. They voted for it together, they ran it, funded it, there's no it was both but it was really Bush as your lame argument goes, it was both and the Senate and House, it was all of them. That ends with a period, not a but ...

The cited post was inclusive enough; no one is let off any hook, the fashion in which the hook was set is merely clarified.
BUT, we are in general agreement.

Not really, I think people are responsible for their own actions. You think they are, sort of, in a way, but they only get a responsibility break when they are Democrats. Entirely different things.

The war was a bad idea. I'd love Democrats to be on my side, but you're not. The big lie of the Iraq war was Democrats saying they were lied to. They did it hand in hand.

I oppose it because we need a better policy. To Democrats it's a finger pointing exercise while they continue the policy but don't follow through on it. It's pathetic

 

[there4eyeM]

It is not as if the U.S. ever really 'held' Iraq. The illegal invasion wasn't even a declared war; the cowards in Congress didn't have the integrity to do it. The entire adventure was doomed to be nothing but loss. All responsible, all who initiated and voted for it, were either fools or traitors, ignorant of history and international repercussions. We are paying the price, and will continue to, as was the plan of those behind it.
Of course Obama mishandled it. He isn't particularly a genius, and even a genius would have been hard put to redeem the situation. There was no good way forward from the time the Bush League started this mess.

I like how you write a reasonable piece then still at the end let Obama off the hook again anyway. It was both parties. They voted for it together, they ran it, funded it, there's no it was both but it was really Bush as your lame argument goes, it was both and the Senate and House, it was all of them. That ends with a period, not a but ...

The cited post was inclusive enough; no one is let off any hook, the fashion in which the hook was set is merely clarified.
BUT, we are in general agreement.

Not really, I think people are responsible for their own actions. You think they are, sort of, in a way, but they only get a responsibility break when they are Democrats. Entirely different things.

The war was a bad idea. I'd love Democrats to be on my side, but you're not. The big lie of the Iraq war was Democrats saying they were lied to. They did it hand in hand.

I oppose it because we need a better policy. To Democrats it's a finger pointing exercise while they continue the policy but don't follow through on it. It's pathetic

You don't have things very well figured out if you think I'm a 'Democrat'.

 

[whutTHEYsay]

kaz 14291443

The big lie of the Iraq war was Democrats saying they were lied to.

Was Bush lying on October 16, 2002 when he answered a reporter's question?

"THE PRESIDENT: Well, first of all, I have told the Prime Minister that my hope is, is that we could achieve a disarmament of the Iraqi regime peacefully. I haven't given up on the fact that we can achieve it peacefully. We have no plans to use our military until -- unless we need to. I explained to the Prime Minister, just like I explain to every citizen who is interested in this, the military is my last choice, not my first choice.

You have a problem with your analysis that Dems saying they were lied to is a big lie.

Do you believe Bush used the military as a last choice when Bush terminated peaceful UN inspections and Iraq's proactive cooperation in March 2003.

Why did Senator Clinton publically state on March 3 2003 that she wanted Bush to keep the inspections going so that military force would not need to be used?

Do you believe Clintion was lying and Bush told her the truth that using the military was his last choice?

 

[kaz]

It is not as if the U.S. ever really 'held' Iraq. The illegal invasion wasn't even a declared war; the cowards in Congress didn't have the integrity to do it. The entire adventure was doomed to be nothing but loss. All responsible, all who initiated and voted for it, were either fools or traitors, ignorant of history and international repercussions. We are paying the price, and will continue to, as was the plan of those behind it.
Of course Obama mishandled it. He isn't particularly a genius, and even a genius would have been hard put to redeem the situation. There was no good way forward from the time the Bush League started this mess.

I like how you write a reasonable piece then still at the end let Obama off the hook again anyway. It was both parties. They voted for it together, they ran it, funded it, there's no it was both but it was really Bush as your lame argument goes, it was both and the Senate and House, it was all of them. That ends with a period, not a but ...

The cited post was inclusive enough; no one is let off any hook, the fashion in which the hook was set is merely clarified.
BUT, we are in general agreement.

Not really, I think people are responsible for their own actions. You think they are, sort of, in a way, but they only get a responsibility break when they are Democrats. Entirely different things.

The war was a bad idea. I'd love Democrats to be on my side, but you're not. The big lie of the Iraq war was Democrats saying they were lied to. They did it hand in hand.

I oppose it because we need a better policy. To Democrats it's a finger pointing exercise while they continue the policy but don't follow through on it. It's pathetic

You don't have things very well figured out if you think I'm a 'Democrat'.

So far in our discussions you've been on the Democrat side every time. You're here saying they're guilty but not really it was W, that's sure not going to change my mind. Maybe if you argued fewer Democrat serving positions you'd not look like such a Democrat. Up to you. There are sure a lot of posters on the board I haven't seen disagree with Democrats ever for years though who say what you just did about not being one

 

[kaz]

The big lie of the Iraq war was Democrats saying they were lied to.

Was Bush lying on October 16, 2002 when he answered a reporter's question?

"THE PRESIDENT: Well, first of all, I have told the Prime Minister that my hope is, is that we could achieve a disarmament of the Iraqi regime peacefully. I haven't given up on the fact that we can achieve it peacefully. We have no plans to use our military until -- unless we need to. I explained to the Prime Minister, just like I explain to every citizen who is interested in this, the military is my last choice, not my first choice.

You have a problem with your analysis that Dems saying they were lied to is a big lie.

Do you believe Bush used the military as a last choice when Bush terminated peaceful UN inspections and Iraq's proactive cooperation in March 2003.

Why did Senator Clinton publically state on March 3 2003 that she wanted Bush to keep the inspections going so that military force would not need to be used?

Do you believe Clintion was lying and Bush told her the truth that using the military was his last choice?

Gotcha, FooledByO. Democrats didn't do it. I mean sure they voted for it and enabled it, they were in the Senate Intelligence committee and in the White House eight of the nine years before the buildup began. But it was W, not them. LOL. You just bathe in the Kool-aid ...

 

[CrusaderFrank]

Frank is a reflexive liar and certainly not a conservative.

No true American conservative approved the invasion of Iraq.

Jake you're all over the place. We're talking about Obama handing Iraq to ISIS and AQ AFTER the peace was won

Frank, stay focused, please. No true American conservative approved of the first invasion and none supports the re-entry of troops to Iraq.

What does that have to do with Obama handing Iraq over to Val Jarrett's Jihadists?

 

[CrusaderFrank]

What I don't understand is why Dems need to lie so badly and openly. You should come out and say, "So what if Obama turned Iraq over to ISIS, we still love him!"

Bush lost the war long before BHO came president. Bush and Rice were unable to negotiate a SOFA that protected American troops. BHO's mistake, once the Iraqis were willing to do what they should have done under Al Maliki, he sent troops back to Iraq.

Jake, we've been over this countless times. Bush left his successor the ability to renegotiate SOFA. Nobody ever believed that Bush's successor would take the opportunity to strengthen ISIS and AQ and hand Iraq over to the enemy.

I wonder if you're concussed. This is about the millionth time you keep trotting out the Bush SOFA debunked talking point. You sound like an Obama Talking Point parrot

 

[JakeStarkey]

Bush failed to renegotiate the SOFA. Obama would not accept the Iraqi demands to put American soldiers in Iraqi courts. Americans left Iraq. Iraqis begged for them back and withdrew their SOFA demands. Americans went back.

Tell the truth, Frank.

 

[whutTHEYsay]

Gotcha, FooledByO. Democrats didn't do it. I mean sure they voted for it and enabled it, they were in the Senate Intelligence committee and in the White House eight of the nine years before the buildup began. But it was W, not them. LOL. You just bathe in the Kool-aid

You don't have anything. You said it was a big lie when Dems say they were lied to.

You are wrong.

Why are you running from my questions?

 

[CrusaderFrank]

Bush failed to renegotiate the SOFA. Obama would not accept the Iraqi demands to put American soldiers in Iraqi courts. Americans left Iraq. Iraqis begged for them back and withdrew their SOFA demands. Americans went back.

Tell the truth, Frank.

You're totally mental, Jake and shilling for Obama. I won't tire of turning your lies back on you

"Rice said that she didn’t understand why the Obama administration was unable to reach an agreement on immunity with the Iraqis, considering that the previous SOFA granted immunity to U.S. soldiers and was passed overwhelmingly by the Iraqi parliament at the time.

"We did manage to negotiate an immunity clause that was acceptable to the Iraqis and acceptable to the Pentagon. I don’t know what happened in these negotiations," Rice said."

Condoleezza Rice: We never expected to leave Iraq in 2011

Again, no one ever expected Obama to be a closet Jihadist taking orders from Iran.

"There was an expectation that we would negotiate something that looked like a residual force for our training with the Iraqis," Rice said. "Everybody believed it would be better if there was some kind of residual force."

Rice said the Iraqi government, despite SOFA’s Jan. 2012 end date, was not only open to a new agreement that would include an extension for U.S. troops, but expected that a new agreement would eventually be signed.

"We certainly understood that the Iraqis preserved that option and everybody believed that option was going to be exercised," Rice said.

It’s been widely reported that the negotiations between the Obama administration and the Iraqi government this year broke down over the issue of immunity for U.S. troops in post-2011 Iraq. The Obama administration had demanded that immunity be granted by the Iraqi Council of Representatives, the country’s primary legislative body, which was unwilling to do so for political reasons."

Condoleezza Rice: We never expected to leave Iraq in 2011

Jake, if Obama couldn't work out a deal with Iraq, why did he send troops back in?

"President Obama pulled U.S. forces out of Iraq in 2011 because he couldn’t get Iraq’s parliament to offer U.S. soldiers immunity from Iraqi prosecution. But now Obama is promising to send in hundreds of special operations forces based on a written promise that these soldiers will not be tried in Iraq’s famously compromised courts for actions they are taking in defense of Baghdad. "

Obama Flips on Immunity for U.S. Troops in Iraq

 

[whutTHEYsay]

Gotcha, FooledByO. Democrats didn't do it. I mean sure they voted for it and enabled it, they were in the Senate Intelligence committee and in the White House eight of the nine years before the buildup began. But it was W, not them. LOL. You just bathe in the Kool-aid

You don't have anything. You said it was a big lie when Dems say they were lied to.

You are wrong.

Why are you running from my questions?

 

[kaz]

Gotcha, FooledByO. Democrats didn't do it. I mean sure they voted for it and enabled it, they were in the Senate Intelligence committee and in the White House eight of the nine years before the buildup began. But it was W, not them. LOL. You just bathe in the Kool-aid

You don't have anything. You said it was a big lie when Dems say they were lied to.

You are wrong.

Why are you running from my questions?

That's funny, you even quoted the answer to your questions. Democrats were insiders, it wasn't possible they were lied to. And they lied about that, it was the big lie of the Iraq war, Democrats lied that they were lied to

 

[JakeStarkey]

Frank keeps lying.

Al Maliki would not negotiate with Bush because was holding out for American soldier protection. He failed.

Obama took office. When the Iraqis would not budge, Obama brought the troops home.

When ISIS tried to take over Iraq, the Iraqis gave SOFA protection to American troops.

Obama fucked up by sending troops back over.

Frank can lie all day long and I will keep correcting him.

 

[there4eyeM]

It is not as if the U.S. ever really 'held' Iraq. The illegal invasion wasn't even a declared war; the cowards in Congress didn't have the integrity to do it. The entire adventure was doomed to be nothing but loss. All responsible, all who initiated and voted for it, were either fools or traitors, ignorant of history and international repercussions. We are paying the price, and will continue to, as was the plan of those behind it.
Of course Obama mishandled it. He isn't particularly a genius, and even a genius would have been hard put to redeem the situation. There was no good way forward from the time the Bush League started this mess.

I like how you write a reasonable piece then still at the end let Obama off the hook again anyway. It was both parties. They voted for it together, they ran it, funded it, there's no it was both but it was really Bush as your lame argument goes, it was both and the Senate and House, it was all of them. That ends with a period, not a but ...

The cited post was inclusive enough; no one is let off any hook, the fashion in which the hook was set is merely clarified.
BUT, we are in general agreement.

Not really, I think people are responsible for their own actions. You think they are, sort of, in a way, but they only get a responsibility break when they are Democrats. Entirely different things.

The war was a bad idea. I'd love Democrats to be on my side, but you're not. The big lie of the Iraq war was Democrats saying they were lied to. They did it hand in hand.

I oppose it because we need a better policy. To Democrats it's a finger pointing exercise while they continue the policy but don't follow through on it. It's pathetic

You don't have things very well figured out if you think I'm a 'Democrat'.

So far in our discussions you've been on the Democrat side every time. You're here saying they're guilty but not really it was W, that's sure not going to change my mind. Maybe if you argued fewer Democrat serving positions you'd not look like such a Democrat. Up to you. There are sure a lot of posters on the board I haven't seen disagree with Democrats ever for years though who say what you just did about not being one

You might try reading what I said instead of what you project. Look at where it was stated that ALL responsible are fools or traitors. What political party was excluded? And that you have confused what posts may have said with your interpretation of what makes a Democrat is something this poster cannot do anything about.

 

[Andylusion]

kaz 14291443

The big lie of the Iraq war was Democrats saying they were lied to.

Was Bush lying on October 16, 2002 when he answered a reporter's question?

"THE PRESIDENT: Well, first of all, I have told the Prime Minister that my hope is, is that we could achieve a disarmament of the Iraqi regime peacefully. I haven't given up on the fact that we can achieve it peacefully. We have no plans to use our military until -- unless we need to. I explained to the Prime Minister, just like I explain to every citizen who is interested in this, the military is my last choice, not my first choice.

You have a problem with your analysis that Dems saying they were lied to is a big lie.

Do you believe Bush used the military as a last choice when Bush terminated peaceful UN inspections and Iraq's proactive cooperation in March 2003.

Why did Senator Clinton publically state on March 3 2003 that she wanted Bush to keep the inspections going so that military force would not need to be used?

Do you believe Clintion was lying and Bush told her the truth that using the military was his last choice?

I believe Bush hoped to avoid violence. I don't think he lied at all. The problem is, Saddam refused to allow unconditional weapons inspections. He even said as much. Saddam claimed that he believed the UN inspection teams were filled with CIA operatives. First I highly doubt that. Second, even if it was true, so what? Saddam didn't have any important information we didn't already know.

So Saddam put his own head in the noose and hanged himself on the US military. I don't think Bush lied about anything.

Doesn't really matter what Clinton said, when Saddam refused. She didn't give another option.

 

[JakeStarkey]

Andylusion, stop lying.

 

[BlindBoo]

Iraq was never ours to lose.

Our loses were self inflicted. Both parties, most all major media. Most Americans were caught up in the spin generated by the former using the angry passion we had back then, after 911.

 

[Andylusion]

I don't see anyone suggesting that the war was conducted to the best possible outcome. Nor do I see anyone suggesting that Bush didn't make mistakes.

We did make mistakes. Namely in our handling of Iraq after dealing with Saddam. When you look at the occupation of Japan, we did not disband the military, nor did we engage in a system of dismissing the government.

Both were devastating moves. But going into the war, anyone that suggests we didn't have cause, or reason, or justification for doing so, is just ignorant.