No 'Deals' With Israel, Unless We Get Everything We Want

[Billo_Really]

Palistanians are just being delusional, legally or otherwise, of course.

That's just drivel, bee-otch!

 

[Billo_Really]

armies were already advancing on the 15th when a cabel was sent to the SC declaring their invasion.

That's because Zionists were taking land that wasn't theirs and it doesn't change the reason why they went in.

 

[docmauser1]

That's because Zionists were taking land that wasn't theirs and it doesn't change the reason why they went in.

Did arab settlers forget to forge land deeds?

 

[docmauser1]

Palistanians are just being delusional, legally or otherwise, of course.

That's just drivel, bee-otch!

Of course, palistanians drivel - it's their occupation!

 

[Billo_Really]

Did arab settlers forget to forge land deeds?

No need to, after 2000 years of constant residence.

International Homestead Law.

Do your homework, mutha-fucka!

 

[aris2chat]

When the mandate ended, Israel did not take land. By the end of the war Israel won land and that became the ceasefire line.
Then they were attacked and won more land.

There was no palestinian state it was mandate land that was won. Jordan annexed the WB. It never created a palestinian state with the land. When Jordan signed a peace agreement with Israel it gave them the land hoping at some point all or most of it would be used to create a palestinian state in the future. That was for Israel and the palestinians to discuss.

Every country takes land for roads and bridges. Taking of land for state projects happens everywhere. If the land was legally owned they are compensated. Same in Israeli courts.
Very little is privately owned. Even the Knesset rents the land it is on from an arab no less.

armies were already advancing on the 15th when a cabel was sent to the SC declaring their invasion.

That's because Zionists were taking land that wasn't theirs and it doesn't change the reason why they went in.

 

[Billo_Really]

When the mandate ended, Israel did not take land.

Not according to the UN...

During the months preceding the end of the Mandate, Jewish forces had moved to occupy key cities and areas in the territory designated for the Arab State.

Ben-Gurion writes that before the Mandate ended:

"... no Jewish settlement, however remote, was entered or seized by the Arabs, while the Haganah ... captured many Arab positions and liberated Tiberias and Haifa, Jaffa and Safad ... So, on the day of destiny, that part of Palestine where the Haganah could operate was almost clear of Arabs".​

The major part of Jerusalem meant to be internationalized under the partition plan, had also been occupied by Jewish forces.

On the termination of the Mandate, Jewish forces moved to occupy further territory beyond the boundaries specified by the Partition resolution.

Holding onto land seized in a war, has been outlawed since the end of WWII.

By the end of the war Israel won land and that became the ceasefire line. Then they were attacked and won more land.

There was no palestinian state it was mandate land that was won. Jordan annexed the WB. It never created a palestinian state with the land. When Jordan signed a peace agreement with Israel it gave them the land hoping at some point all or most of it would be used to create a palestinian state in the future. That was for Israel and the palestinians to discuss.

Every country takes land for roads and bridges. Taking of land for state projects happens everywhere. If the land was legally owned they are compensated. Same in Israeli courts.
Very little is privately owned. Even the Knesset rents the land it is on from an arab no less.

And just which land is that?

 

[docmauser1]

Did arab settlers forget to forge land deeds?

No need to, after 2000 years of constant residence. International Homestead Law. Do your homework, mutha-fucka!

2000 years!? Must be some potent hallucinogen at work, indeed.

 

[docmauser1]

Not according to the UN...

Do those clowns have a new show?

Holding onto land seized in a war, has been outlawed since the end of WWII.

Palistanians have never had no land, no borders and no country, of course. Nevah.

 

[RoccoR]

Billo_Really, aris2chat, et al,

Wellllll, that is not the entire truth.

armies were already advancing on the 15th when a cabel was sent to the SC declaring their invasion.

That's because Zionists were taking land that wasn't theirs and it doesn't change the reason why they went in.

(OBSERVATION)

The Arab Legion was already in Palestine in the month of March, being prepositioned and provisioned with British Munitions by British Forces for the coming engagement scheduled to begin on midnight 14/15 May.

2. As the Commission will appreciate, the Arab Legion is being employed in Palestine as part of the Security Forces under the command of the General Officer Commanding. In order that the Arab Legion may be in a position effectively to carry out its task of assisting in the maintenance of security, it has, of course, to be supplied with arms and equipment as required. I am, therefore, authorised to confirm the statement made in paragraph 2 of the letter referred to above, namely, that on or about the 9th March certain items of equipment to meet Arab Legion requirements were moved from Tel el Kebir in Egypt to Raffah in Palestine.

During the first half of March certain British army supplies were transferred from Egypt to Rafah in Palestine for the use of the Arab Legion. Included in these stores were charging sets, artillery stores, anti-tank rifles and mortars.

The movement into Palestine and the transfer to the Arab Legion of material of this type must necessarily be a source of grave anxiety and the actions of the British authorities in this regard are incomprehensible in the light of their professed neutrality in the present situation in Palestine.

SOURCE: JA DEL LTR 19 March 1948

You may have seen reports in the New York press to the effect that several units of the Arab Legion have recently moved into the Hebron area from Transjordan as a result of orders received from the Arab League.

2. I have been in communication with Jerusalem on this point and have received the following information: -

(i) Elements of the Arab Legion serving in Palestine under British command have recently been posted to the Hebron area.

(ii) This is part of the general re-deployment of forces under the command of the General Officer Commanding and in conformity with his policy of, as far as possible, posting elements of the Arab Legion serving under his command to Arab areas.

(iii) It is thus not correct that units of the Arab Legion now in the Hebron area moved in from Transjordan as a result of orders from the Arab League.​

3. This information has been given to the Jewish Agency representatives in New York in reply to an enquiry received from them.

SOURCE: A/AC.21/UK/83 24 March 1948

SOURCE: UK DEL Letter 24 March 1948

As you can see, the plausible denial on the disposition of the Arab League Forces was setup before the withdrawal UK Mandate Forces. That way, it would make it appear that the Arab League Force, reported in the cable - received by the Secretary-General of the United Nations on 16 May from HM King Abdullah of Transjordan, was the first entry. It provided political cover for HM the King, by saying the Arab League Forces were under British Command at the time, with everyone understanding as soon as the Mandate British Force withdrew, the Arab League Forces would automatically revert to Jordanian control. It also provided political cover for the British which provided escort, cover and concealment, supplies and war materials, and allow the establishment of defensive fortification on the best ground in advance of the conflict. The British could legitimately claim that all this was provided to forces under the UK General Officer Commanding (MG Hugh Stockwell, KBE, 6th Airborne Division); and oversaw the evacuation of 30,000 Arabs from Haifa. MG Stockwell was also "responsible for the evacuation" of all British troops from Palestine.

"Secretary-General we were compelled to enter Palestine to protect unarmed Arabs against massacres similar to those of Deir Yasin. We are aware of our national duty towards Palestine in general and Jerusalem in particular and also Nazareth and Bethlehem. Be sure that we shall be very considerate in connection with Jews in Palestine and while maintaining at the same time the full rights of the Arabs in Palestine. Zionism did not react to our offers made before the entry of armed forces.

(signed) Abdullah R"​

SOURCE: PAL/167 16 May 1948

This was a military slight of hand to ensure that the conflict outcome was assured prior the British departure and the end of the Mandate. This would leave HM Abdullah, already installed as the Hashemite King, in command of the field on the West side of the Jordan River; as opposed to the UNPC which was to be the Successor Government. With the advance forces fully provisioned with British supplied war materials, pre-positioned in fortified battlements built in March and April, and in a disposed formation to extend an umbrella of protection to the main column of forces crossing the FEBA into unallocated territory, it allowed a decisive combat advantage over Israeli defenders. Ultimately, it allowed HM King Abdullah to annex the West Bank.

Most Respectfully,
R

 

[aris2chat]

By dawn of the 15th Israel was engaged with the Jordanian forces. 5am Tel Aviv was being bomb by air.

The declaration of independence made not claim of territorial limits, no stated boundaries, that came with the end of the war, they were simply ceasefire lines.

 

[Billo_Really]

By dawn of the 15th Israel was engaged with the Jordanian forces. 5am Tel Aviv was being bomb by air.

The declaration of independence made not claim of territorial limits, no stated boundaries, that came with the end of the war, they were simply ceasefire lines.

And your point is what?

 

[P F Tinmore]

By dawn of the 15th Israel was engaged with the Jordanian forces. 5am Tel Aviv was being bomb by air.

The declaration of independence made not claim of territorial limits, no stated boundaries, that came with the end of the war, they were simply ceasefire lines.

And your point is what?

Israel has no land or borders.

 

[aris2chat]

Israel would not have been as large if not for the arabs attacking them.

Arabs created Israels borders by war, by loosing at war.

By dawn of the 15th Israel was engaged with the Jordanian forces. 5am Tel Aviv was being bomb by air.

The declaration of independence made not claim of territorial limits, no stated boundaries, that came with the end of the war, they were simply ceasefire lines.

And your point is what?

Israel has no land or borders.

 

[Hossfly]

By dawn of the 15th Israel was engaged with the Jordanian forces. 5am Tel Aviv was being bomb by air.

The declaration of independence made not claim of territorial limits, no stated boundaries, that came with the end of the war, they were simply ceasefire lines.

And your point is what?

Israel has no land or borders.

Who told you that lie, Tinmore? Israel has borders.

 

[Kondor3]

"...Israel has no land or borders."

Of course, a legal case can be made that this is so.

But nobody who resides outside of a lunatic asylum actually believes that this is operative in the Real World.

Perhaps that best describes what's left of Rump Palestine... a lunatic asylum.

Repeated victories on the battlefield and superior firepower set all that old international legal horseshit aside forevermore, decades ago.

 

[P F Tinmore]

Israel still use 1949 armistice lines as de facto borders.

2. The Armistice Demarcation Line is not to be construed in any sense as a political or territorial boundary,...

The Avalon Project : Egyptian-Israeli General Armistice Agreement, February 24, 1949

 

[RoccoR]

P F Tinmore, et al,

Yes, the original borders were spelled out in GA Resolution 181(II). However, with the attempt by the Arab League to halt the implementation by force, Treaties had to be the solution.

Israel still use 1949 armistice lines as de facto borders.

2. The Armistice Demarcation Line is not to be construed in any sense as a political or territorial boundary,...

The Avalon Project : Egyptian-Israeli General Armistice Agreement, February 24, 1949

(COMMENT)

The Armistice Agreements between Egypt and Jordan are history, overtaken by the event of Peace Treaties.

• Treaty of Peace between the Arab Republic of Egypt and the State of Israel, 26 March 1979
• Treaty of Peace between The State of Israel and The Hashemite Kingdom of Jordan 26 October 1994

In the Treaty with Egypt:

Article II

The permanent boundary between Egypt and Israel is the recognized international boundary between Egypt and the former mandated territory of Palestine, as shown on the map at Annex II, without prejudice to the issue of the status of the Gaza Strip. The Parties recognize this boundary as inviolable. Each will respect the territorial integrity of the other, including their territorial waters and airspace.​

In the Treaty with Jordan:

Article 3 - International Boundary

1. The international boundary between Israel and Jordan is delimited with reference to the boundary definition under the Mandate as is shown in Annex I(a), on the mapping materials attached thereto and co-ordinates specified therein.

2. The boundary, as set out in Annex I (a), is the permanent, secure and recognised international boundary between Israel and Jordan, without prejudice to the status of any territories that came under Israeli military government control in 1967.

3. The parties recognise the international boundary, as well as each other's territory, territorial waters and airspace, as inviolable, and will respect and comply with them.

4. The demarcation of the boundary will take place as set forth in Appendix (I) to Annex I and will be concluded not later than nine months after the signing of the Treaty.

5. It is agreed that where the boundary follows a river, in the event of natural changes in the course of the flow of the river as described in Annex I (a), the boundary shall follow the new course of the flow. In the event of any other changes the boundary shall not be affected unless otherwise agreed.

6. Immediately upon the exchange of the instruments of ratification of this Treaty, each Party will deploy on its side of the international boundary as defined in Annex I (a).

7. The Parties shall, upon the signature of the Treaty, enter into negotiations to conclude, within 9 months, an agreement on the delimitation of their maritime boundary in the Gulf of Aqaba.

8. Taking into account the special circumstances of the Naharayim/Baqura area, which is under Jordanian sovereignty, with Israeli private ownership rights, the Parties agreed to apply the provisions set out in Annex I (b).

9. With respect to the Zofar/Al-Ghamr area, the provisions set out in Annex I (c) will apply.​

Neither Lebanon or Syria have made an agreement, thus Armistice Line are still being enforced.

The Palestinians have never concluded a Peace Treaty since becoming a State in 1988 and internationally recognized with the capacity (Part II, Article 6, Vienna Convention on the Law of Treaties).

NOTE:

• UNTC Registry No. 17813 EGYPT and ISRAEL Page 100 (Eng Fr Arabic Hebrew) Maps start on Page 178

• State of Israel and The Hashemite Kingdom of Jordan Registry No 35325

Most Respectfully,
R

 

[P F Tinmore]

P F Tinmore, et al,

Yes, the original borders were spelled out in GA Resolution 181(II). However, with the attempt by the Arab League to halt the implementation by force, Treaties had to be the solution.

Israel still use 1949 armistice lines as de facto borders.

2. The Armistice Demarcation Line is not to be construed in any sense as a political or territorial boundary,...

The Avalon Project : Egyptian-Israeli General Armistice Agreement, February 24, 1949

(COMMENT)

The Armistice Agreements between Egypt and Jordan are history, overtaken by the event of Peace Treaties.

• Treaty of Peace between the Arab Republic of Egypt and the State of Israel, 26 March 1979
• Treaty of Peace between The State of Israel and The Hashemite Kingdom of Jordan 26 October 1994

In the Treaty with Egypt:

Article II

The permanent boundary between Egypt and Israel is the recognized international boundary between Egypt and the former mandated territory of Palestine, as shown on the map at Annex II, without prejudice to the issue of the status of the Gaza Strip. The Parties recognize this boundary as inviolable. Each will respect the territorial integrity of the other, including their territorial waters and airspace.​

In the Treaty with Jordan:

Article 3 - International Boundary

1. The international boundary between Israel and Jordan is delimited with reference to the boundary definition under the Mandate as is shown in Annex I(a), on the mapping materials attached thereto and co-ordinates specified therein.

2. The boundary, as set out in Annex I (a), is the permanent, secure and recognised international boundary between Israel and Jordan, without prejudice to the status of any territories that came under Israeli military government control in 1967.

3. The parties recognise the international boundary, as well as each other's territory, territorial waters and airspace, as inviolable, and will respect and comply with them.

4. The demarcation of the boundary will take place as set forth in Appendix (I) to Annex I and will be concluded not later than nine months after the signing of the Treaty.

5. It is agreed that where the boundary follows a river, in the event of natural changes in the course of the flow of the river as described in Annex I (a), the boundary shall follow the new course of the flow. In the event of any other changes the boundary shall not be affected unless otherwise agreed.

6. Immediately upon the exchange of the instruments of ratification of this Treaty, each Party will deploy on its side of the international boundary as defined in Annex I (a).

7. The Parties shall, upon the signature of the Treaty, enter into negotiations to conclude, within 9 months, an agreement on the delimitation of their maritime boundary in the Gulf of Aqaba.

8. Taking into account the special circumstances of the Naharayim/Baqura area, which is under Jordanian sovereignty, with Israeli private ownership rights, the Parties agreed to apply the provisions set out in Annex I (b).

9. With respect to the Zofar/Al-Ghamr area, the provisions set out in Annex I (c) will apply.​

Neither Lebanon or Syria have made an agreement, thus Armistice Line are still being enforced.

The Palestinians have never concluded a Peace Treaty since becoming a State in 1988 and internationally recognized with the capacity (Part II, Article 6, Vienna Convention on the Law of Treaties).

NOTE:

• UNTC Registry No. 17813 EGYPT and ISRAEL Page 100 (Eng Fr Arabic Hebrew) Maps start on Page 178

• State of Israel and The Hashemite Kingdom of Jordan Registry No 35325

Most Respectfully,
R

Israel claims borders on land that it has never legally acquired.

Israel claims to get Palestinian borders by treaties with third parties.

 

[RoccoR]

P F Tinmore, et al,

Land acquisition is a real estate issue. Sovereignty is a matter of governmental institutions and political control.

Israel claims borders on land that it has never legally acquired.

(COMMENT)

What is "legally acquired?" Are you speaking of "sovereignty?" What is it that the contemporary Palestinian (a territorial name given by the Ottoman and passed on by the Allied Powers and the Mandatory for the indigenous population within an arbitrary boundary) acquired, or think they acquired?

Israel claims to get Palestinian borders by treaties with third parties.

(COMMENT)

Israel was established IAW the recommendation made by the UN. The attempt by the Arab Palestinian and Arab League to thwart the Partition Plan ended badly for the Arabs and resulted in the lost of territorial control.

The Palestinians did not have a "state" until 1988. Therefore, they are the third party and had no capacity to enter into a Treaty. After 1988, the Palestinian made no peace overtures as a principle party. The West Bank had been Occupied and then annexed by Jordan. Similarly, the Gaza Strip fell under the control of Egypt. By 1967, the principle parties to the conflict were Israel 'vs' Egypt and Jordan.

Oddly enough, under Arab League control, the Palestinians of the West Bank and Gaza Strip had no right to self-determination. They only acquire the right after the defeat of Egyptian and Jordanian forces by Israel.

Most Respectfully,
R