new phase of armored war in Ukraine?

[shoshi]

It is being reported by Crux that Russia is sending T-14s into Ukraine and Germany and Denmark may supply Ukrainian army with Leopard 2. Two of the best tanks today. But the Russians already know how to use theirs. How much training will Ukrainian crews need to master the Leopard 2? So it is hard to predict who wins.

 

[gipper]

And what if NATO sends in their crews?

Lets have a nice BIG war…thinks only the MIC and dumb warmongers.

 

[shoshi]

Russia has lost many tanks in Ukraine to anti tank missiles such as the Javelin. But is it as effective against the T14? I guess we will find out.

 

[CrusaderFrank]

It is being reported by Crux that Russia is sending T-14s into Ukraine and Germany and Denmark may supply Ukrainian army with Leopard 2. Two of the best tanks today. But the Russians already know how to use theirs. How much training will Ukrainian crews need to master the Leopard 2? So it is hard to predict who wins.

Are there ANY functional Leopard 2’s?

 

[shoshi]

Are there ANY functional Leopard 2’s?

Why not?

 

[CrusaderFrank]

Why not?

Why? The Germans don’t have a functional Air Force, why would their armor be any better?

 

[night_son]

It is being reported by Crux that Russia is sending T-14s into Ukraine and Germany and Denmark may supply Ukrainian army with Leopard 2. Two of the best tanks today. But the Russians already know how to use theirs. How much training will Ukrainian crews need to master the Leopard 2? So it is hard to predict who wins.

A main battle tank is only as good as the combined arms force supporting it. Tanks require constant refueling and rearming, food for the crews, maintenance of high tech targeting systems, infantry screening to counter enemy AT infantry, air support, artillery support and on and on. I suppose we'll see which side ultimately musters the most effective combined arms companies, battalions and brigades. Weather will also become a factor in the immediate future; rain, snow, mud, frozen thermal imaging lenses, thrown tracks, bogs, and all the rest.

 

[Sunni Man]

The Leopard 2 main German battle tank has to my knowledge never been tested in combat, so it's unknown as to how well it will perform under real time battlefield conditions.
Plus, it takes months to train a tank crew to be proficient in operating the advanced technology of a modern tank, and especially the complicated tasks of effectively loading and accurately firing the main gun to hit a target.

 

[beagle9]

Russia has lost many tanks in Ukraine to anti tank missiles such as the Javelin. But is it as effective against the T14? I guess we will find out.

The tank in modern day warfare is a relic of days gone by, just like we will ultimately realize with navy vessel's that we think so highly of it will be the same for them. Missiles long and short range with their payloads, and with their guidance system's now purdy much trump any fixed of highly vulnerable platform today. Drone's have become battle deciders in many precision strikes, so that is another new development on the battlefield not very well defended against. Out of this war a lot is being learned, but isn't that a shame ?

 

[White 6]

It is being reported by Crux that Russia is sending T-14s into Ukraine and Germany and Denmark may supply Ukrainian army with Leopard 2. Two of the best tanks today. But the Russians already know how to use theirs. How much training will Ukrainian crews need to master the Leopard 2? So it is hard to predict who wins.

I have been out of the game for over 25 years, but went through several tank upgrades. In Ukraine's active combat situation, I am not sure it is necessary, and would require a totally different maintenance supply chain and technical training to maintain full-up mission capable, which could easily take longer to emplace, than training tank crews to effectively use.

 

[Sunni Man]

People think tank crews can easily switch from operating one country's tank to operating another country's tank.
Kinda like driving a Chevy car and then switching to driving a Ford car.
That's a big No way Jose.
Almost all of the Ukrainian tanks are Russian tanks.
So any tanks provided the U.S. and the EU / NATO that were manufactured in their country are going to require a lot of training to operate effectively.
And since every country's tanks are different, the logistics for repair parts and ammo is going to be a nightmare.

 

[beagle9]

People think tank crews can easily switch from operating one country's tank to operating another country's tank.
Kinda like driving a Chevy car and then switching to driving a Ford car.
That's a big No way Jose.
Almost all of the Ukrainian tanks are Russian tanks.
So any tanks provided the U.S. and the EU / NATO that were manufactured in their country are going to require a lot of training to operate effectively.
And since every country's tanks are different, the logistics for repair parts and ammo is going to be a nightmare.

Saw an arms dealer on the middle east border during one of their war's over there, and they asked him if he had anywhere on the battlefield to be, where would that be ? He said not in the tank because everybody goes after the tank.

 

[para bellum]

Leo 2's have seen action in Syria and Afghanistan. Turkish Leo 2's are older models (A4) and were used as fixed emplacements without infantry support, and they lost 8 or 10 of them.

Canadian and Danish Leo 2's (A5 and A6) were used in Afghanistan and performed well. They took a few mines and IED hits, but they didn't lose any.

T-14 is a parade tank, and do not exist in meaningful numbers. Russia just recently announced that they are going to take in 800 T-62's for "modernizing" over the next 3 years- that should tell you something about their tank situation.

Training and logistics are always an issue, but the Ukrainians learned the PzH2000's and Caesar's and HIMARS/M270's quickly, and are able to use them effectively. They will be able to do the same when they transition to a new MBT.

The US has 400 M1A1's that could be transferred to Ukraine.

 

[Admiral Rockwell Tory]

I have been out of the game for over 25 years, but went through several tank upgrades. In Ukraine's active combat situation, I am not sure it is necessary, and would require a totally different maintenance supply chain and technical training to maintain full-up mission capable, which could easily take longer to emplace, than training tank crews to effectively use.

You have apparently been out of the game all your life!

 

[Sunni Man]

T-14 is a parade tank

"The T-14 is widely considered the most capable platform of its kind in the world, and depending on the definition may well be the world’s only fourth generation battle tank."

These Are The 10 Reasons Why Russia's New Main Battle Tank The T-14 Armata Has Everyone Worried

The T-14 Armata tank is an excellent tank sitting at the cutting edge and Western armies are playing catch up.

www.hotcars.com

 

[para bellum]

The T-14 is widely considered the most capable platform of its kind in the world, and depending on the definition may well be the world’s only fourth generation battle tank.

Irrelevant.

Wiki:

In July 2021, Minister of Industry and Trade Denis Manturov said the tank would enter serial production in 2022. However in March, Defence Minister Sergei Shoigu claimed that only “an experimental-industrial” batch of T-14s would be delivered in 2022.[37][clarification needed] In August 2021, Deputy Defense Minister Alexei Krivoruchko said that the Russian Armed Forces would receive 20 T-14 Armata tanks by the end of 2021.[38] On 23 August, a Rostec official said that the company had shipped an unspecified number of T-14 tanks in an "experimental batch" to the Russian Armed Forces.[39] In November 2021, state trials were in progress and expected to be completed in 2022, and a "pilot batch" of twenty tanks was yet to be delivered to the armed forces.[40][41] On 24 December 2021, First Deputy General Director of Rostec Vladimir Artyakov announced, that "serial production" of the T-14 was launched.[4] Earlier in December MIC First Deputy Chairman Andrei Yelchaninov said that state trials of new ammunition loader for the T-14 should be fully completed in 2022, and that "more than 40" Armata tanks will be delivered to Russian troops after 2023.[42]

Note this was before sanctions. Russian tank production is at a standstill now. That's why they are dragging out the relics.

You can put the T-14 in your file with the other "promising Russian weapons that were not produced".

 

[AZrailwhale]

Irrelevant.

Wiki:

In July 2021, Minister of Industry and Trade Denis Manturov said the tank would enter serial production in 2022. However in March, Defence Minister Sergei Shoigu claimed that only “an experimental-industrial” batch of T-14s would be delivered in 2022.[37][clarification needed] In August 2021, Deputy Defense Minister Alexei Krivoruchko said that the Russian Armed Forces would receive 20 T-14 Armata tanks by the end of 2021.[38] On 23 August, a Rostec official said that the company had shipped an unspecified number of T-14 tanks in an "experimental batch" to the Russian Armed Forces.[39] In November 2021, state trials were in progress and expected to be completed in 2022, and a "pilot batch" of twenty tanks was yet to be delivered to the armed forces.[40][41] On 24 December 2021, First Deputy General Director of Rostec Vladimir Artyakov announced, that "serial production" of the T-14 was launched.[4] Earlier in December MIC First Deputy Chairman Andrei Yelchaninov said that state trials of new ammunition loader for the T-14 should be fully completed in 2022, and that "more than 40" Armata tanks will be delivered to Russian troops after 2023.[42]

Note this was before sanctions. Russian tank production is at a standstill now. That's why they are dragging out the relics.

You can put the T-14 in your file with the other "promising Russian weapons that were not produced".

The T-14 is vaporware. These articles are all written from Russian claims, not ant objective comparisons. We’ve seen it all before, both the T-64 and T-72 were supposed to be far superior to western tanks, but the T-64 was such a dog, even the Russians pulled it from service and T-72s have been proven far inferior to even sixty year old M-60A1s and even older Centurians in actual combat.

 

[beagle9]

Leo 2's have seen action in Syria and Afghanistan. Turkish Leo 2's are older models (A4) and were used as fixed emplacements without infantry support, and they lost 8 or 10 of them.

Canadian and Danish Leo 2's (A5 and A6) were used in Afghanistan and performed well. They took a few mines and IED hits, but they didn't lose any.

T-14 is a parade tank, and do not exist in meaningful numbers. Russia just recently announced that they are going to take in 800 T-62's for "modernizing" over the next 3 years- that should tell you something about their tank situation.

Training and logistics are always an issue, but the Ukrainians learned the PzH2000's and Caesar's and HIMARS/M270's quickly, and are able to use them effectively. They will be able to do the same when they transition to a new MBT.

The US has 400 M1A1's that could be transferred to Ukraine.

Tanks are a relic of the past, unless you are going to fight a prehistoric nation. Without radar to detect incoming enemies, and counter measures to defend against incoming rounds, then you'd be a fool to blaze onto a modern day battlefield in a tank. Not no, but heck no... LOL.

 

[Dayton3]

Why? The Germans don’t have a functional Air Force, why would their armor be any better?

Several nations have tank parks full of fully functional Leopard IIs.

 

[CrusaderFrank]

Leo 2's have seen action in Syria and Afghanistan. Turkish Leo 2's are older models (A4) and were used as fixed emplacements without infantry support, and they lost 8 or 10 of them.

Canadian and Danish Leo 2's (A5 and A6) were used in Afghanistan and performed well. They took a few mines and IED hits, but they didn't lose any.

T-14 is a parade tank, and do not exist in meaningful numbers. Russia just recently announced that they are going to take in 800 T-62's for "modernizing" over the next 3 years- that should tell you something about their tank situation.

Training and logistics are always an issue, but the Ukrainians learned the PzH2000's and Caesar's and HIMARS/M270's quickly, and are able to use them effectively. They will be able to do the same when they transition to a new MBT.

The US has 400 M1A1's that could be transferred to Ukraine.

It’s almost as if we’re fighting a proxy war