Need to point fingers? Use the facts.

[DiveCon]

LET ME CONCLUDE: Republicans are responsible for putting the state in debt, and cutting the police budgets causing massive layoffs and cut hours and days leading to no protection at the event.

State's been run by Dems most of the time. Napolitano left it in deep debt.

Dupnik's budget doesn't come from the state, it's from the county, also run by Dems forever. Dupnik never cited any budget problems.

You fail.

No, the state has not been run by Dem Governors most of the time. Take a walk down history lane. And if you lied about the first part, I assume you lied about the county as well. You fail extra-big-Time on this one.

Janet Napolitano isn't a dem?

 

[Midnight Marauder]

LET ME CONCLUDE: Republicans are responsible for putting the state in debt, and cutting the police budgets causing massive layoffs and cut hours and days leading to no protection at the event.

State's been run by Dems most of the time. Napolitano left it in deep debt.

Dupnik's budget doesn't come from the state, it's from the county, also run by Dems forever. Dupnik never cited any budget problems.

You fail.

No, the state has not been run by Dem Governors most of the time. Take a walk down history lane. And if you lied about the first part, I assume you lied about the county as well. You fail extra-big-Time on this one.

The county sheriff's department does NOT get its money from the state.

Napolitano left the state in deep debt.

This is all moot anyway, just a pissant deflection, since the Sheriff would have billed the US for the protection anyway and never made any statement about budget problems.

You continue to fail, defending the indefensible. It is STANDARD procedure to have police presence at such events. Dupnik had the jurisdiction. It happened on HIS watch, it's on him.

 

[shintao]

I don't know if I'd go so far as to say he hoped it would happen, but he sure didn't hesitate to exploit it.

His knowledge of the suspect is your exploitation of the suspects killings?? Does he have a duty to share with the media? DO the media have a right to know the details or not in a free press society??

He didn't give them any details. He gave them speculation on motive, which he later had to admit he had ZERO evidence to support.

You fail again in your desperate attempts to, for some reason, defend Dupnik.

No, you lost the first round, Loser, so there is no again. Where do I defend Dupnik? Your personal hatred is clouding your vision, you fail again. Did he share what he knew about the shooter with the media. Wag your head like the doggy in the car window. Yes he did. Your desperate attempt to protect the shooter knows no bounds!!!

 

[Midnight Marauder]

His knowledge of the suspect is your exploitation of the suspects killings?? Does he have a duty to share with the media? DO the media have a right to know the details or not in a free press society??

He didn't give them any details. He gave them speculation on motive, which he later had to admit he had ZERO evidence to support.

You fail again in your desperate attempts to, for some reason, defend Dupnik.

No, you lost the first round, Loser, so there is no again. Where do I defend Dupnik? Your personal hatred is clouding your vision, you fail again. Did he share what he knew about the shooter with the media. Wag your head like the doggy in the car window. Yes he did. Your desperate attempt to protect the shooter knows no bounds!!!

You cannot read, apparently. Otherwise you wouldn't have missed this

Loughner is responsible, alone, for the shooting. DUPNIK is liable for damages, for not doing his ******* JOB and making at the very least a token effort, to prevent it.

He shared with the media, his pet theory about "right wing rhetoric" then later had to admit there was ZERO evidence to support it.

Go sleep off your drunken stupor, really.

Oh and, you still FAIL. Badly.

 

[shintao]

State's been run by Dems most of the time. Napolitano left it in deep debt.

Dupnik's budget doesn't come from the state, it's from the county, also run by Dems forever. Dupnik never cited any budget problems.

You fail.

No, the state has not been run by Dem Governors most of the time. Take a walk down history lane. And if you lied about the first part, I assume you lied about the county as well. You fail extra-big-Time on this one.

The county sheriff's department does NOT get its money from the state.

Napolitano left the state in deep debt.

This is all moot anyway, just a pissant deflection, since the Sheriff would have billed the US for the protection anyway and never made any statement about budget problems.

You continue to fail, defending the indefensible. It is STANDARD procedure to have police presence at such events. Dupnik had the jurisdiction. It happened on HIS watch, it's on him.

While your losing, here is your governor cutting the mentally ill budget in the state, and old Reagan trick. It didn't work then, and it doesn't work now does it? You fail Loser & take your governor with you.

Some $36 million was slashed early last year, and Gov. Jan Brewer called the cuts,

 

[Midnight Marauder]

No, the state has not been run by Dem Governors most of the time. Take a walk down history lane. And if you lied about the first part, I assume you lied about the county as well. You fail extra-big-Time on this one.

The county sheriff's department does NOT get its money from the state.

Napolitano left the state in deep debt.

This is all moot anyway, just a pissant deflection, since the Sheriff would have billed the US for the protection anyway and never made any statement about budget problems.

You continue to fail, defending the indefensible. It is STANDARD procedure to have police presence at such events. Dupnik had the jurisdiction. It happened on HIS watch, it's on him.

While your losing, here is your governor cutting the mentally ill budget in the state, and old Reagan trick. It didn't work then, and it doesn't work now does it? You fail Loser & take your governor with you.

Some $36 million was slashed early last year, and Gov. Jan Brewer called the cuts,

Has nothing at all to do with Dupnik not having protection at the event. In fact, it supports my contention that he should have had. It's just another infantile deflection.

 

[shintao]

He didn't give them any details. He gave them speculation on motive, which he later had to admit he had ZERO evidence to support.

You fail again in your desperate attempts to, for some reason, defend Dupnik.

No, you lost the first round, Loser, so there is no again. Where do I defend Dupnik? Your personal hatred is clouding your vision, you fail again. Did he share what he knew about the shooter with the media. Wag your head like the doggy in the car window. Yes he did. Your desperate attempt to protect the shooter knows no bounds!!!

You cannot read, apparently. Otherwise you wouldn't have missed this

Loughner is responsible, alone, for the shooting. DUPNIK is liable for damages, for not doing his ******* JOB and making at the very least a token effort, to prevent it.

He shared with the media, his pet theory about "right wing rhetoric" then later had to admit there was ZERO evidence to support it.

Go sleep off your drunken stupor, really.

Oh and, you still FAIL. Badly.

No you are the Loser here, and it shows in your rhetoric, typical of a Loser who has to make personal attacks when they fail and have no other defense. Lay off the crack pipe ol man, you blew it big time!!

 

[Midnight Marauder]

No, you lost the first round, Loser, so there is no again. Where do I defend Dupnik? Your personal hatred is clouding your vision, you fail again. Did he share what he knew about the shooter with the media. Wag your head like the doggy in the car window. Yes he did. Your desperate attempt to protect the shooter knows no bounds!!!

You cannot read, apparently. Otherwise you wouldn't have missed this

Loughner is responsible, alone, for the shooting. DUPNIK is liable for damages, for not doing his ******* JOB and making at the very least a token effort, to prevent it.

He shared with the media, his pet theory about "right wing rhetoric" then later had to admit there was ZERO evidence to support it.

Go sleep off your drunken stupor, really.

Oh and, you still FAIL. Badly.

No you are the Loser here, and it shows in your rhetoric, typical of a Loser who has to make personal attacks when they fail and have no other defense. Lay off the crack pipe ol man, you blew it big time!!

There's no personal attack there. It's just facts. Your desperate attempt to hold Dupnik harmless almost sounds like Loughner's mental imbalance.

Really.

 

[Charles_Main]

This fruitcake acted alone. He apparently was not influenced by anyone on either side of the political spectrum. Those are the facts.

Finally some sanity on this forum on this subject.

The man was mentally ILL, any examination of his politics forces one to conclude he had no determinable Ideology. In fact he seemed to be all over the place with the types of things he watched and read. Somethings smack of the Left while Others the Right.

Shame on anyone who tried, or is still trying, to associate this man with any Political Party, or Ideology.

 

[Midnight Marauder]

You just BOLSTERED my case, whining about cuts to mental health budgets. Dupnik had to know this, hence MORE need to protect the Congresswoman and the folks gathered to see her.

 

[Midnight Marauder]

This fruitcake acted alone. He apparently was not influenced by anyone on either side of the political spectrum. Those are the facts.

Finally some sanity on this forum on this subject.

The man was mentally ILL, any examination of his politics forces one to conclude he had no determinable Ideology. In fact he seemed to be all over the place with the types of things he watched and read. Somethings smack of the Left while Others the Right.

Shame on anyone who tried, or is still trying, to associate this man with any Political Party, or Ideology.

You uhh.... Cut out the part where OldCrocks went on to blame "right wing rhetoric" anyway.

Weird, that.

 

[cisz]

This fruitcake acted alone. He apparently was not influenced by anyone on either side of the political spectrum. Those are the facts.

Here are the perceptions. There are a great many on the right that have spoken in terms that are incendiary. First in suggesting that our government in this democracy is our enemy. Second, by stating that 2nd amendment solutions should be sought because a majority voted in someone they do not like. And third, by images and referances to crosshairs and guns. None of the people making these statements meant to actually carry them out. However, as we recoil in horror at the events in Tucson, we cannot but remember the rhetoric and images. This is the kind of horror that they were refering to, and it will be reflected in peoples attitudes towards those created the rhetoric and images.

The rhetoric that absolutely nothing to do with the shootings.

There is a documented case of someone who tried to murder people at the Tides Foundation and the ACLU who stated it was listening to Glenn Beck that caused him to try to do that.

This is from the "Democracy Now" (Amy Goodman) site.

AMY GOODMAN: On December 31st, Glenn Beck’s website, "The Blaze," published an article titled "Frances Fox Piven Rings in the New Year by Calling for Violent Revolution." In response to that article, several readers posted direct death threats to Piven. A user named JST1425 wrote, quote, "be very careful what you ask for honey... As I mentioned in previous posts…ONE SHOT…ONE KILL! 'We The People' will need to stand up for what is right…a few well placed marksmen with high powered rifles…then there would not be any violence," unquote.

User name SUPERWRENCH4 wrote, quote, "Somebody tell Frances I have 5000 roundas [sic] ready and I’ll give My life to take Our freedom back. Taking Her life and any who would enslave My children and grandchildren and call for violence should meet their demise as They wish. George Washington didn’t use His freedom of speech to defeat the British, He shot them," unquote.

Another reader wrote on Glenn Beck’s website, quote, "We should blowup Piven’s office and home. And while at it. Keel haul Bernardine Dohrn under one of her freedom ships and blow up Bill Ayers’ house cars and anywhere he can be found," unquote.

And a user who goes by the name GREEN_MANALISHI wrote, quote, "I’m all for violence and change Francis, where do your loved ones live?" unquote.

Despite the overt threats, Glenn Beck has not removed any of the messages from his site, even though readers of "The Blaze" are encouraged to highlight troublesome posts.

Now, I want ask you, Frances Fox Piven, about the case of Byron Williams. He’s the California man who admitted it was Fox News host Glenn Beck who inspired him to plot the assassination of employees of the ACLU and the Tides Foundation. Byron Williams was arrested last July after he opened fire on California Highway Patrol officers. The shootout occurred as Williams was driving to the headquarters of the Tides Foundation in San Francisco. The case received little national attention. The media watchdog group Media Matters released audio from a jailhouse interview in which Williams talked about Beck’s influence.

BYRON WILLIAMS: I would have never started watching Fox News if it wasn’t for the fact that Beck was on there. And it was the things that he did, it was the things he exposed, that blew my mind. I said, "Well, nobody does this." Beck will never say anything about a conspiracy, will never advocate violence. He’ll never do anything of this nature. But he’ll give you every ounce of evidence that you could possibly need. Go look at all the stuff that you’ll find. I would suggest you go back and see, try to find the videos about—all the June videos.

JUAN GONZALEZ: That jailhouse interview was conducted—with Byron Williams, was conducted by John Hamilton from Media Matters. I spoke to John in October, and he played for us more excerpts of Byron Williams.

JOHN HAMILTON: I think this is one of the most important points, that, no, Glenn Beck doesn’t advocate explicitly for violence, but in Byron Williams’s mind, Glenn Beck gives you every ounce of evidence that you could possibly need.

BYRON WILLIAMS: You know, I’ll tell you. Beck is going to deny everything about violent approach, deny everything about conspiracies, but he’ll give you every reason to believe in it. He is protecting himself, and you can’t blame him for that. So, I understand what he’s doing.

AMY GOODMAN: That was Byron Williams, recorded by you in the Santa Rita Jail. Go on with what he’s saying.

JOHN HAMILTON: I think Dana Milbank of the Washington Post put it best. He has a compendium of Glenn Beck quotes. Here is some of the rhetoric that you’ll hear on Glenn Beck’s radio program or see on his TV show: “The war is just beginning," "Shoot me in the head if they try to change our government," "You have to be prepared to take rocks to the head," "The other side is attacking," "There is a coup going on," "Grab a torch," "Drive a stake through the heart of the bloodsuckers," "They are taking you to a place to be slaughtered.” I mean, these are quotes, and I could go on. I mean, there’s any number of these from Glenn Beck.

AMY GOODMAN: The issue of Glenn Beck and violence and the other things that he has said or the images of pouring gasoline on someone on the show?

JOHN HAMILTON: Right. Well, we titled the piece “Progressive Hunter,” and that’s taken from a line that Glenn Beck used on one of his programs. And he said, “’Til the day I die, I’m going to be a progressive hunter.” He said he was going to be like "the Israeli Nazi hunters." “I’m going to find these big progressives, and 'til the day I die, I’m going to be a progressive hunter. I'm going to find these people that have done this to our country and expose them.”

Now, he says he’s going to expose them. He’s not advocating violence. But when you liken liberals and progressives in America to Nazis and saying you’re going after them like an Israeli Nazi hunter, when you raise your level of rhetoric to that point, and you have an audience like Byron—people like Byron Williams are watching this—it’s unsurprising that we get these incidents.

 

[Bfgrn]

What we should be discussing is how to fix the reporting of mental illness.

The college didn't report what was an obvious deranged person, they kicked him out and figured he was now someone else's problem.

The parents knew something was terribly wrong, yet did nothing.

The campus police deferred to the authority of the college administrators instead of following their intuition.

These are the problem that led to this tragedy.

The question is...does the left want to solve the problem, or score political points?

Thus far it's been the latter.

I agree with you. And I believe you are falsely accusing the left of not agreeing with you. IMO, most liberals would agree, but take it further.

How do we revise the process that allowed someone like this to be issued a gun permit?

How do we not only 'fix the reporting of mental illness'...how do we fix or properly treat mental illness itself?

Mental Health Funding was Recently Cut in Pima County, AZ

While our nation comes to grips with the recent Arizona tragedy and we look for someone or something to blame, we cannot forget mental health. As a previous mental health counselor working at a non-profit center in Florida, I have seen first-hand how easy it is for the government to ignore mental health funding. It is often the first expenditure cut, leaving thousands of mentally ill without medications or counseling. In Pima County, Arizona—where the mass shooting occurred over the weekend, it was no different. The county has seen more than 45 percent of its mental health service recipients forced off the public rolls. This is where austerity measures can deeply affect public welfare and safety. Despite strong protests from advocates for the mentally ill, the Arizona government cited the need to control the budget and ignored the promise of increased suicides, hospitalizations, and public disturbances. Although it is not known if any better mental health services would have made any difference with regards to this shooting, mental health funding is important all around the nation to prevent massive tragedies such as this one and to prevent all the smaller tragedies of suicide that occur daily.

Clarke Romans, executive director for southern Arizona’s branch of the National Alliance on Mental Illness:

“So they have cut the budget on paper, in Phoenix, but they now expect the local community, like Tucson, to increase the police, the emergency room, the response to suicide attempts, incarcerations and hospital stays," he added, noting that these services are among the most expensive a local government can provide. "It’s madness."

 

[Article 15]

This fruitcake acted alone. He apparently was not influenced by anyone on either side of the political spectrum. Those are the facts.

Here are the perceptions. There are a great many on the right that have spoken in terms that are incendiary. First in suggesting that our government in this democracy is our enemy. Second, by stating that 2nd amendment solutions should be sought because a majority voted in someone they do not like. And third, by images and referances to crosshairs and guns. None of the people making these statements meant to actually carry them out. However, as we recoil in horror at the events in Tucson, we cannot but remember the rhetoric and images. This is the kind of horror that they were refering to, and it will be reflected in peoples attitudes towards those created the rhetoric and images.

The rhetoric that absolutely nothing to do with the shootings.

There is a documented case of someone who tried to murder people at the Tides Foundation and the ACLU who stated it was listening to Glenn Beck that caused him to try to do that.

This is from the "Democracy Now" (Amy Goodman) site.

AMY GOODMAN: On December 31st, Glenn Beck’s website, "The Blaze," published an article titled "Frances Fox Piven Rings in the New Year by Calling for Violent Revolution." In response to that article, several readers posted direct death threats to Piven. A user named JST1425 wrote, quote, "be very careful what you ask for honey... As I mentioned in previous posts…ONE SHOT…ONE KILL! 'We The People' will need to stand up for what is right…a few well placed marksmen with high powered rifles…then there would not be any violence," unquote.

User name SUPERWRENCH4 wrote, quote, "Somebody tell Frances I have 5000 roundas [sic] ready and I’ll give My life to take Our freedom back. Taking Her life and any who would enslave My children and grandchildren and call for violence should meet their demise as They wish. George Washington didn’t use His freedom of speech to defeat the British, He shot them," unquote.

Another reader wrote on Glenn Beck’s website, quote, "We should blowup Piven’s office and home. And while at it. Keel haul Bernardine Dohrn under one of her freedom ships and blow up Bill Ayers’ house cars and anywhere he can be found," unquote.

And a user who goes by the name GREEN_MANALISHI wrote, quote, "I’m all for violence and change Francis, where do your loved ones live?" unquote.

Despite the overt threats, Glenn Beck has not removed any of the messages from his site, even though readers of "The Blaze" are encouraged to highlight troublesome posts.

Now, I want ask you, Frances Fox Piven, about the case of Byron Williams. He’s the California man who admitted it was Fox News host Glenn Beck who inspired him to plot the assassination of employees of the ACLU and the Tides Foundation. Byron Williams was arrested last July after he opened fire on California Highway Patrol officers. The shootout occurred as Williams was driving to the headquarters of the Tides Foundation in San Francisco. The case received little national attention. The media watchdog group Media Matters released audio from a jailhouse interview in which Williams talked about Beck’s influence.

BYRON WILLIAMS: I would have never started watching Fox News if it wasn’t for the fact that Beck was on there. And it was the things that he did, it was the things he exposed, that blew my mind. I said, "Well, nobody does this." Beck will never say anything about a conspiracy, will never advocate violence. He’ll never do anything of this nature. But he’ll give you every ounce of evidence that you could possibly need. Go look at all the stuff that you’ll find. I would suggest you go back and see, try to find the videos about—all the June videos.

JUAN GONZALEZ: That jailhouse interview was conducted—with Byron Williams, was conducted by John Hamilton from Media Matters. I spoke to John in October, and he played for us more excerpts of Byron Williams.

JOHN HAMILTON: I think this is one of the most important points, that, no, Glenn Beck doesn’t advocate explicitly for violence, but in Byron Williams’s mind, Glenn Beck gives you every ounce of evidence that you could possibly need.

BYRON WILLIAMS: You know, I’ll tell you. Beck is going to deny everything about violent approach, deny everything about conspiracies, but he’ll give you every reason to believe in it. He is protecting himself, and you can’t blame him for that. So, I understand what he’s doing.

AMY GOODMAN: That was Byron Williams, recorded by you in the Santa Rita Jail. Go on with what he’s saying.

JOHN HAMILTON: I think Dana Milbank of the Washington Post put it best. He has a compendium of Glenn Beck quotes. Here is some of the rhetoric that you’ll hear on Glenn Beck’s radio program or see on his TV show: “The war is just beginning," "Shoot me in the head if they try to change our government," "You have to be prepared to take rocks to the head," "The other side is attacking," "There is a coup going on," "Grab a torch," "Drive a stake through the heart of the bloodsuckers," "They are taking you to a place to be slaughtered.” I mean, these are quotes, and I could go on. I mean, there’s any number of these from Glenn Beck.

AMY GOODMAN: The issue of Glenn Beck and violence and the other things that he has said or the images of pouring gasoline on someone on the show?

JOHN HAMILTON: Right. Well, we titled the piece “Progressive Hunter,” and that’s taken from a line that Glenn Beck used on one of his programs. And he said, “’Til the day I die, I’m going to be a progressive hunter.” He said he was going to be like "the Israeli Nazi hunters." “I’m going to find these big progressives, and 'til the day I die, I’m going to be a progressive hunter. I'm going to find these people that have done this to our country and expose them.”

Now, he says he’s going to expose them. He’s not advocating violence. But when you liken liberals and progressives in America to Nazis and saying you’re going after them like an Israeli Nazi hunter, when you raise your level of rhetoric to that point, and you have an audience like Byron—people like Byron Williams are watching this—it’s unsurprising that we get these incidents.

I read/watched a video about this. IMO, it's quite plausible that glennbeck had a lot of influence over this guy.

 

[Ravi]

Need to point fingers? Use the facts.

Fact 1: Sheriff Dupnik knew this cluck Loughner was a danger to the community. His deputies had gone to the cluck's home on several occasions in the months prior to the shootings, concerning death threats.

Link?

 

[editec]

It's no one's fault, yet words have consequences. Make up your minds.

Exactly...can't have it both ways.

Ironically enough in this case we CAN HAVE IT BOTH WAYS.

Why?

Because that nutter is, just like everybody else, exposed to the hate coming at us all from the MSM and political climate.

To say that that did NOT influence him is silly.

It influences EVERYBODY.

But what it does NIOT do is turn us ALL into assassins.

That's where the mental state of the perp comes into play.

If this guy had lived in the 16th century, he might very well have assassinated a RELIGOUS FIGURE since at that time the thing on most people's mind was the titantic struggle between CAtholicism and Protestanism.

But the guy live now in this political climate.

So his delusional and irractional thinking involves things POLTICAL, rather than theological.

We are ALL affected by the zeitgeist of OUR time.

 

[NYcarbineer]

It's no one's fault, yet words have consequences. Make up your minds.

thing is, on the right, what i have heard is "words mean things" not that they had "consequences"

Words do mean things.

But when Obama says "When they bring a knife, we'll bring a gun"...I don't think he means that anyone has really brought a knife or for anyone to bring an actual gun...he's speaking figuatively.

When Palin says "Don't retreat, reload." she saying the same thing Obama is saying. Don't give up, comeback with a stronger argument.

So do you believe that Palin will stick to her guns (lol) and continue to use that sort of rhetoric?

Do you think she should? Shouldn't she? After all, it's just figurative, and her fans love it. Wouldn't she be caving in to unjustified pressure, if she tones it down?

 

[NYcarbineer]

Need to point fingers? Use the facts.

Fact 1: Sheriff Dupnik knew this cluck Loughner was a danger to the community. His deputies had gone to the cluck's home on several occasions in the months prior to the shootings, concerning death threats.

Fact 2: Immediately after the shootings, Dupnik claimed "right wing rhetoric" was responsible. Repeating a mantra he'd used many times before the shooting.

Fact 3: Using fact 1 and fact 2, it's apparent that either A) The sheriff lies, and doesn't really think "right wing rhetoric" is a danger or, B) He thinks it's a danger but not really a bad one or C) He believes it IS a danger and was just hoping for some such to happen, as did.

Either way, we get to Fact 4: The survivors and the families of the deceased have a very good lawsuit case, for wrongful death and injury, because Dupnik didn't have ANY deputies at this public event led by his US Representative, in the middle of what he claims is a "hot political climate" where "violent right wing rhetoric" might drive someone to violence.

Loughner is responsible, alone, for the shooting. DUPNIK is liable for damages, for not doing his ******* JOB and making at the very least a token effort, to prevent it.

When did the Right take a vote and decide that they were going to support the government/law enforcement, etc., to be more intrusive, to be more aggressive in getting into people's personal lives and liberties?

Recently? Because that sure as hell hasn't been the common theme from the Right over the years.

 

[daveman]

Not only that, but you can be Dupnik, the chief law enforcement officer for that county, and after the event basically tell the folks, "I knew something like this was coming" and have them all buffaloed so much, none ever ask, "Uhh, but if you knew, why didn't you have any deputies assigned to the event?"

Answer? He HOPED this would happen, and that the shooter would have a poorly written, barely legible, illiterate right wing tea party pro Palin manifesto left to find.

Because he's not really interested in doing his JOB -- protecting the folks. He's interested in pushing his political agenda.

I don't know if I'd go so far as to say he hoped it would happen, but he sure didn't hesitate to exploit it.

His knowledge of the suspect is your exploitation of the suspects killings?? Does he have a duty to share with the media? DO the media have a right to know the details or not in a free press society??

He gave them no details. He gave them baseless politically-motivated supposition about motives.

 

[Missourian]

This fruitcake acted alone. He apparently was not influenced by anyone on either side of the political spectrum. Those are the facts.

Here are the perceptions. There are a great many on the right that have spoken in terms that are incendiary. First in suggesting that our government in this democracy is our enemy. Second, by stating that 2nd amendment solutions should be sought because a majority voted in someone they do not like. And third, by images and referances to crosshairs and guns. None of the people making these statements meant to actually carry them out. However, as we recoil in horror at the events in Tucson, we cannot but remember the rhetoric and images. This is the kind of horror that they were refering to, and it will be reflected in peoples attitudes towards those created the rhetoric and images.

The rhetoric that absolutely nothing to do with the shootings.

There is a documented case of someone who tried to murder people at the Tides Foundation and the ACLU who stated it was listening to Glenn Beck that caused him to try to do that.

This is from the "Democracy Now" (Amy Goodman) site.

AMY GOODMAN: On December 31st, Glenn Beck’s website, "The Blaze," published an article titled "Frances Fox Piven Rings in the New Year by Calling for Violent Revolution." In response to that article, several readers posted direct death threats to Piven. A user named JST1425 wrote, quote, "be very careful what you ask for honey... As I mentioned in previous posts…ONE SHOT…ONE KILL! 'We The People' will need to stand up for what is right…a few well placed marksmen with high powered rifles…then there would not be any violence," unquote.

User name SUPERWRENCH4 wrote, quote, "Somebody tell Frances I have 5000 roundas [sic] ready and I’ll give My life to take Our freedom back. Taking Her life and any who would enslave My children and grandchildren and call for violence should meet their demise as They wish. George Washington didn’t use His freedom of speech to defeat the British, He shot them," unquote.

Another reader wrote on Glenn Beck’s website, quote, "We should blowup Piven’s office and home. And while at it. Keel haul Bernardine Dohrn under one of her freedom ships and blow up Bill Ayers’ house cars and anywhere he can be found," unquote.

And a user who goes by the name GREEN_MANALISHI wrote, quote, "I’m all for violence and change Francis, where do your loved ones live?" unquote.

Despite the overt threats, Glenn Beck has not removed any of the messages from his site, even though readers of "The Blaze" are encouraged to highlight troublesome posts.

Now, I want ask you, Frances Fox Piven, about the case of Byron Williams. He’s the California man who admitted it was Fox News host Glenn Beck who inspired him to plot the assassination of employees of the ACLU and the Tides Foundation. Byron Williams was arrested last July after he opened fire on California Highway Patrol officers. The shootout occurred as Williams was driving to the headquarters of the Tides Foundation in San Francisco. The case received little national attention. The media watchdog group Media Matters released audio from a jailhouse interview in which Williams talked about Beck’s influence.

BYRON WILLIAMS: I would have never started watching Fox News if it wasn’t for the fact that Beck was on there. And it was the things that he did, it was the things he exposed, that blew my mind. I said, "Well, nobody does this." Beck will never say anything about a conspiracy, will never advocate violence. He’ll never do anything of this nature. But he’ll give you every ounce of evidence that you could possibly need. Go look at all the stuff that you’ll find. I would suggest you go back and see, try to find the videos about—all the June videos.

JUAN GONZALEZ: That jailhouse interview was conducted—with Byron Williams, was conducted by John Hamilton from Media Matters. I spoke to John in October, and he played for us more excerpts of Byron Williams.

JOHN HAMILTON: I think this is one of the most important points, that, no, Glenn Beck doesn’t advocate explicitly for violence, but in Byron Williams’s mind, Glenn Beck gives you every ounce of evidence that you could possibly need.

BYRON WILLIAMS: You know, I’ll tell you. Beck is going to deny everything about violent approach, deny everything about conspiracies, but he’ll give you every reason to believe in it. He is protecting himself, and you can’t blame him for that. So, I understand what he’s doing.

AMY GOODMAN: That was Byron Williams, recorded by you in the Santa Rita Jail. Go on with what he’s saying.

JOHN HAMILTON: I think Dana Milbank of the Washington Post put it best. He has a compendium of Glenn Beck quotes. Here is some of the rhetoric that you’ll hear on Glenn Beck’s radio program or see on his TV show: “The war is just beginning," "Shoot me in the head if they try to change our government," "You have to be prepared to take rocks to the head," "The other side is attacking," "There is a coup going on," "Grab a torch," "Drive a stake through the heart of the bloodsuckers," "They are taking you to a place to be slaughtered.” I mean, these are quotes, and I could go on. I mean, there’s any number of these from Glenn Beck.

AMY GOODMAN: The issue of Glenn Beck and violence and the other things that he has said or the images of pouring gasoline on someone on the show?

JOHN HAMILTON: Right. Well, we titled the piece “Progressive Hunter,” and that’s taken from a line that Glenn Beck used on one of his programs. And he said, “’Til the day I die, I’m going to be a progressive hunter.” He said he was going to be like "the Israeli Nazi hunters." “I’m going to find these big progressives, and 'til the day I die, I’m going to be a progressive hunter. I'm going to find these people that have done this to our country and expose them.”

Now, he says he’s going to expose them. He’s not advocating violence. But when you liken liberals and progressives in America to Nazis and saying you’re going after them like an Israeli Nazi hunter, when you raise your level of rhetoric to that point, and you have an audience like Byron—people like Byron Williams are watching this—it’s unsurprising that we get these incidents.

This is exactly the kind of bullcrap I'm talking about.

The statements quoted “The war is just beginning," "Shoot me in the head if they try to change our government," "You have to be prepared to take rocks to the head," "The other side is attacking," "There is a coup going on," "Grab a torch," "Drive a stake through the heart of the bloodsuckers," "They are taking you to a place to be slaughtered.” are figurative devices.

If I say "I shot the shit with my buddies" do you believe we opened fire on excrement?

How about "That chicken's so good, you'll slap your mamma." Am I advocating maternal abuse?

Or "We'll have it done before you can say 'Bob's your uncle". Do you think that literally means we'll be finished before you've completed the sentence?

On to the other half of you assertion.

Beck makes arguments opposing the progressive movement.

Is making a case against something based on fact and obserservation inciting violence?

Let's take your hypothisis to an extreme.

I tell you I think it's possible your wife is cheating on you.

I lay out a case, based on evidence and observation.

Am I responsible if you kill your wife?

What it I say "You're better off without that cheating *****".

Am I responsible now?

That's your argument in a nut shell.


Next, Byron Williams, what your left-wing site left out. Williams is a twice convicted felon...he broke the law just by touching a firearm. He opened fire on police not because of Glenn Beck, but because he was going to go to prison for 25 years on a third strike for gun possession !

With two strikes on his record for two previous bank-robbery convictions, Williams faces at least 25 years to life in prison as a three strikes felon.

Highway Shooter Targeted Tides Foundation, ACLU - News Story - KTVU San Francisco
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Finally, the Nazi hunter quote...here it is, I'll highlight the operative word:

In his quest to root out these "progressives", Beck has compared himself to Israeli Nazi hunters, vowing on his radio show that "to the day I die I am going to be a progressive-hunter. I’m going to find these people that have done this to our country and expose them. I don’t care if they’re in nursing homes."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Glenn_Beck

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