My Fellow Atheists, We Aren't Responsible

[k2skier]

I am open to other atheists' questions and enjoy assisting my fellow free thinkers in their quests on this board.

Free thinkers? Yeah, right LOL

Apparently he doesn't want to be challenged, and is closed minded about the possibility that God does exist.

How dare you invade his comfortable space, Jeff

man created god...it's up to those who believe he exists to prove his existence, nice deflection

 

[peach174]

Any atheists that I have ever met are single people. Are you single tetracide or you K2?
None of them have ever gotten married.
I guess no one can put up with your philosophy. Maybe it is having a terrible personality?
God does exist and you will find that out when you die whether you like it or not.
You atheists - your love of wisdom is getting in the way of God's love.

 

[Anguille]

Any atheists that I have ever met are single people. Are you single tetracide or you K2?
None of them have ever gotten married.
I guess no one can put up with your philosophy. Maybe it is having a terrible personality?
God does exist and you will find that out when you die whether you like it or not.
You atheists - your love of wisdom is getting in the way of God's love.

 

[Mad Scientist]

OP is wrong. This thread itself is a defense of Atheist "Beliefs" or "Unbeliefs". Atheists "defend" their "beliefs" every time they argue that God doesn't exist.

If the OP really thought that, he/she would never have posted it as Atheism needs no defense right?

 

[Tetracide]

OP is wrong. This thread itself is a defense of Atheist "Beliefs" or "Unbeliefs". Atheists "defend" their "beliefs" every time they argue that God doesn't exist.

If the OP really thought that, he/she would never have posted it as Atheism needs no defense right?

Atheism needs no defense, since the Atheist makes no positive claim. It is the theist making the positive claim: that an entity named God exists. Atheists simply do not agree with the evidence.

One can never, logically speaking, "defend" (negative) atheism for that very reason.

 

[Tetracide]

Any atheists that I have ever met are single people. Are you single tetracide or you K2?
None of them have ever gotten married.
I guess no one can put up with your philosophy. Maybe it is having a terrible personality?
God does exist and you will find that out when you die whether you like it or not.
You atheists - your love of wisdom is getting in the way of God's love.

I am engaged to a lovely woman, who is spiritual and believes in a higher power. She and I disagree, but I love her, and she loves me. We plan on having children together and will be allowing our kids to make up their own minds on whether or not to believe.

Your claim that God exists rests on no evidence though. I can't believe you if you don't substantiate your claim.

 

[Tetracide]

I am open to other atheists' questions and enjoy assisting my fellow free thinkers in their quests on this board.

Free thinkers? Yeah, right LOL

Apparently he doesn't want to be challenged, and is closed minded about the possibility that God does exist.

How dare you invade his comfortable space, Jeff

To the contrary, a challenge of a theist to prove God's existence would be quite entertaining.

 

[Mad Scientist]

OP is wrong. This thread itself is a defense of Atheist "Beliefs" or "Unbeliefs". Atheists "defend" their "beliefs" every time they argue that God doesn't exist.

If the OP really thought that, he/she would never have posted it as Atheism needs no defense right?

Atheism needs no defense, since the Atheist makes no positive claim. It is the theist making the positive claim: that an entity named God exists. Atheists simply do not agree with the evidence.

One can never, logically speaking, "defend" (negative) atheism for that very reason.

Absolutely you make a "positive claim", you claim God doesn't exist. Theists believe in God, Atheists believe God doesn't exist. I can't prove God exists, you can't prove God doesn't exist.

Ok so prove how the Universe came to be without any biblical reference. You can't do it.

 

[peach174]

What started the big bang?Something or someone did. I believe that God did.
I am glad to hear about your engagement, congratulations.

 

[Mad Scientist]

I am open to other atheists' questions and enjoy assisting my fellow free thinkers in their quests on this board.

Free thinkers? Yeah, right LOL

Apparently he doesn't want to be challenged, and is closed minded about the possibility that God does exist.

How dare you invade his comfortable space, Jeff

To the contrary, a challenge of a theist to prove God's existence would be quite entertaining.

Just as entertaining as an atheist trying to disprove Gods' existence.

 

[Mad Scientist]

What started the big bang?Something or someone did. I believe that God did.
I am glad to hear about your engagement, congratulations.

Oh don't you know? Little dust particles came together over trillions of years and compacted themselves into a space the size of a pin head then exploded! The Universe has been expanding ever since!

What great story! Backed up with NO PROOF! Only scientific belief!

 

[peach174]

Yep that's right, scientists have no proof of their theory, but theirs is right alright.
Science belief fact, God believers wrong.

 

[Tetracide]

Absolutely you make a "positive claim", you claim God doesn't exist.

The positive atheist does, yes. The positive atheist says, "I not only do not accept your evidence for God's existence, but I also belive that God cannot exist. The positive atheist IS making a positive claim and should back it up with reasoning.

On the other hand, the negative atheist says, "I do not accept your evidence for God's existence. Period." The negative atheist does not take that second step his fellow positive atheist makes. The negative atheist is not responsible for the defense of a claim, because he's made no claim to defend.

Theists believe in God, Atheists believe God doesn't exist. I can't prove God exists, you can't prove God doesn't exist.

If you cannot prove God exists, then what meaning remains of the term "God?" How do you know God is unknowable? If God's existence, nature, and realm of being is unknowable to humans, what is there left to say about God?

Ok so prove how the Universe came to be without any biblical reference. You can't do it.

I sure can. The universe always existed. I'll explain why I know this: existence is all that which is. Nothing can lie outside of existence - for if it did, it would not exist at all. It would be nothing. By asking the question, "How did the universe come to be?" you are asking me how something came of nothing, how non-existence became existence. Such a circumstance is impossible.

 

[Tetracide]

What started the big bang?Something or someone did. I believe that God did.
I am glad to hear about your engagement, congratulations.

Thank you for your congratulations.

Let me ask if you are familiar with Occam's Razor - the rule that an explanation of an event should be proved from the minimum evidence necessary to do so.

For example, if I were to walk out of the shower to find that there is no towel in the bathroom, and that the towel was in fact lying next to my bed in the bedroom, I could assume a variety of things: that an intruder broke into my house, took my towel and moved it to the side of my bed, or that I simply forgot to put my towel back into the bathroom after I showered last.

The second scenario has the evidence to prove itself. The first does not - and in fact if true, relies on further evidence that I do not have.

By being unaware of the cause of the big bang, does not give you license to invent a creature named God, entitle it to vast powers, and grant it responsibility of the universe. One could just as easily grant responsibility of the big bang to a pink flying elephant. Both claims rest on the same type of logic.

 

[emilynghiem]

I am open to other atheists' questions and enjoy assisting my fellow free thinkers in their quests on this board.

Free thinkers? Yeah, right LOL

Apparently he doesn't want to be challenged, and is closed minded about the possibility that God does exist.

How dare you invade his comfortable space, Jeff

To the contrary, a challenge of a theist to prove God's existence would be quite entertaining.

Dear Tetracide: I take on your challenge of "proving God's existence" which can be done by aligning "definitions" of the meanings behind God and Jesus, etc:
1. first defining what we mean by God, and what we don't mean, what we believe and don't believe, and just aligning the common values regardless what names or descriptions we assign (such as believing in natural laws, or universal truth, or the power of love or good will to conquer evil or falsehood or divisive ill will etc.)
2. then using these common values to compare and contrast what we agree or disagree is the right way or wrong way to act on these goals and purposes, so that we agree on that level; so regardless if we talk about these values in terms of theism or nontheism, we agree on what is beneficial and effective and what is harmful, unfair or unethical
3. and then applying these agreed values to actions and reforms in real life to prove through physical results that they really work in practice not just in theory.

So this way we can prove we believe in the same values of truth and justice for all people, we can resolve conflicts over how to express or act on our beliefs to achieve common goals we agree on, and we can implement these agreement to effect results in the world.

I believe this can be done, Tetra. I have friends who are atheists, anti-theists, Jesus-only believers and all ranges in between, including political leanings from the far right to the far left, and I focus on where we agree so we can at least get something productive done. I believe in resolving all conflicts by agreement in truth, or agreeing to accept how each other expresses or focuses on things in diverse ways, where these are still in harmony.
Not all my friends get along with each other; but if we agree to work in separate groups, we can still work together indirectly, and let each focus on their best skills and purpose.

If you want to take this on, I planned on starting a website to coordinate the resolution of conflicts and issues involved in reaching a consensus on God/Truth, and Jesus/Justice. It may take lifetimes of work to organize all the tribes and factions around the world to have a universal consensus and include all the diversity at the same time; but it can't be as bad as all the wars and destruction going on if we don't have some unified way to align common values so all resources can be coordinated effectively instead of destructively.

The university system is one way to organize mass human and social resources per community while connecting with others organized the same way. Tetra, are you or your family affiliated with any particular school? I am a graduate of Rice University in Houston, TX, which has a public policy institute and also supports outreach and studies between science especially medicine, and various faith communities. I believe scientific proof of spiritual healing prayer to cure mental and physical conditions is one area that would resolve conflicts preventing a consensus on God. I stated this before, but most of the proof is more about resolving or forgiving conflicts that prevent people from aligning along values they already believe in, regardless how these are expressed. To believe these concepts are compatible, in harmony, and/or manifesting from the same source of energy or knowledge is what helps people to see they are talking about the same thing.

A lot of the conflict is either in the definition of what people mean by God, or in personal issues people have with other groups that prevent them from communicating with each other so they never resolve the issues dividing them. When you resolve those issues, then by default, people tend to get along even if their perceptions remain diverse. So whatever that level of consensus is on truth, I believe the effort and steps to get there will also prove all other things in the process. I'm willing to push for this, and see how much can be done within my lifetime, at least the alignment in theory and agreement on concepts, while carrying out the rest of the proof may take generations to show that all problems can be solved eventually thus establishing world peace or the "Kingdom of God" on earth.

 

[Tetracide]

Dear Tetracide: I take on your challenge of "proving God's existence" which can be done by aligning "definitions" of the meanings behind God and Jesus, etc:
1. first defining what we mean by God, and what we don't mean, what we believe and don't believe, and just aligning the common values regardless what names or descriptions we assign (such as believing in natural laws, or universal truth, or the power of love or good will to conquer evil or falsehood or divisive ill will etc.)
2. then using these common values to compare and contrast what we agree or disagree is the right way or wrong way to act on these goals and purposes, so that we agree on that level; so regardless if we talk about these values in terms of theism or nontheism, we agree on what is beneficial and effective and what is harmful, unfair or unethical
3. and then applying these agreed values to actions and reforms in real life to prove through physical results that they really work in practice not just in theory.

So this way we can prove we believe in the same values of truth and justice for all people, we can resolve conflicts over how to express or act on our beliefs to achieve common goals we agree on, and we can implement these agreement to effect results in the world.

I believe this can be done, Tetra.

We will see if it can be done:

1. The concept of God. Since I (or anyone for that matter) have no knowledge of a being called God, I can only describe God in terms used by theists themselves. If we wish to discover the nature of the Christian God, the National Catholic Almanac offers us a
   generous assortment of attributes from which to choose. According to this source, God is "almighty, eternal, holy, immortal, immense, immutable, incomprehensible, ineffable, infinite, invisible, just, loving, merciful, most high, most wise, omnipotent, omniscient, omnipresent, patient, perfect, provident, supreme, true." However, one might say that this is just a vague string of attributes to a yet-to-be-defined entity. A definition I've found useful is simply "a supernatural entity." You may add or subtract attributes, but I think the concept of God rests on the foundational assumption that He is supernatural in essence, and omnipotent, omniscient, omnipresent, ect., in character.
   
   
2. The concept of value. You also desire common values, however, this might be an impossible task, because my concept of values most assuredly differs from yours, even though in reality I believe our values are the same. I view values to be objective. Value is based on and derives from the facts of reality (it does not derive from mystic authority or from whim, personal or social). Reality, along with the decision to remain in it, i.e., to stay alive, dictates and demands an entire code of values. Unlike the lower species, man does not pursue the proper values automatically; he must discover and choose them; but this does not imply subjectivism. Every proper value-judgment is the identification of a fact: a given object or action advances man’s life (meaning it is good), or it threatens man’s life (meaning it is bad or evil). While there are an infinite variety of values, I believe man's highest value is his own life. All other values stem from it (i.e. liberty, happiness, property, sex, ect.)
   
   
3. Implications of life as a value. Being moral consists in thinking logically and acting on long-range principles toward life-serving goals. In other words, being moral consists of being rational. If we want to live happily - if we want to pursue our values guiltlessly, with integrity - we need to discover a non-sacrificial code of morality. And to defend such a code, we need to ground it logically in observable facts; we need to discover a natural, provable, objective standard of value on which to base it.

 

[assbeef]

First things first.

I want to OP to prove (s)he exists

prove your non-existant god exists-oh,wait,you cant.
pretty weak god ya got there.

 

[Intense]

Any atheists that I have ever met are single people. Are you single tetracide or you K2?
None of them have ever gotten married.
I guess no one can put up with your philosophy. Maybe it is having a terrible personality?
God does exist and you will find that out when you die whether you like it or not.
You atheists - your love of wisdom is getting in the way of God's love.

I am engaged to a lovely woman, who is spiritual and believes in a higher power. She and I disagree, but I love her, and she loves me. We plan on having children together and will be allowing our kids to make up their own minds on whether or not to believe.

Your claim that God exists rests on no evidence though. I can't believe you if you don't substantiate your claim.

Positive proof you are an Idiot with too many rules to be a good Anarchist, or a free thinker, with no knowledge of God or the predictability of the Female mind, especially when it comes to Kid's. Good luck with that. God Bless. You are going to need all the Blessings you can get.

 

[k2skier]

Any atheists that I have ever met are single people. Are you single tetracide or you K2?
None of them have ever gotten married.
I guess no one can put up with your philosophy. Maybe it is having a terrible personality?
God does exist and you will find that out when you die whether you like it or not.
You atheists - your love of wisdom is getting in the way of God's love.

marrried, 23 years to the same woman

 

[slukasiewski]

In this thread, I wish to speak directly to my fellow atheists on this board to better equip them in the discussions that occur here.

I want to impart with you the following ideas that you must keep in mind in every discussion you have with a theist.

We are not responsible for defending our position. It is the theist who invents a mystical creature called god, endows it with absurd characteristics, establishes a culture and following around it, and decrees we adhere to the subjective teachings assigned to it. Our rejection of this is not a positive claim, it is a negative one. The burden of proof resides with the theist, and he alone.

There are however, different degrees of atheism. Positive Atheism, and Negative Atheism.

Positive atheists (atheists that not only reject theism, but accept god cannot exist), do make a claim, and must substantiate it accordingly. They may do so in a variety of ways, one of which is encapsulated by George H. Smith:

To be is to be something as opposed to nothing, and to be something is to be something specific. If a god is to have any characteristics (which it must to exist), these characteristics must be specific—but to assign definite attributes, to say that a being is this as opposed to that, is to limit the capacities of that being and to subject it to the uniformity imposed by those capacities.

A supernatural being, if it is to differ in kind from natural existence, must exist without a limited nature—which amounts to existing without any nature at all. If we are to talk intelligibly about a god, we must presuppose that this god has characteristics by which it can be identified. But once the idea of supernatural existence is introduced, an existence apart from the limitations of natural law, we exclude the possibility of assigning any definite characteristics to a god—because by so doing we bring our god within the realm of limitations and hence within the realm of natural law.

Negative atheists, may sit back and relax. They may spend their time explaining to the theist why their claims of God's existence are insufficient. The theist may say, "God transcends human understanding; he is unknowable," to which I'm sure you can reduce to absurdity with relative ease.

Never allow the theist to bog you down with scripture or any other evidence within the realm of theism. It rests on a faulty premise that you may not stand upon.

I am open to other atheists' questions and enjoy assisting my fellow free thinkers in their quests on this board.

Good posting.

Sorry - I don't believe in Atheists...

I am a Christian.

So, go **** yourself.

Thanks