Zone1 “If the universe had a beginning, then we cannot avoid the question of creation.”

[ding]

At this point, I don't believe anyone else does either.

I can see (and even appreciate) many of the assumptions being made. But, when new things (like radiation) are being introduced to dance around the fact that we have nothing in the way of evidence of anything PRIOR to the "singularity". . . I'm just going to let it go at that.

The CMB, conservation, quantum mechanics and observations of matter / anti-matter popping into and out of existence in super-collider experiments says otherwise.

 

[ding]

It may be interesting to know, but how the Universe popped out of nothingness is little more than that (curiosity), to me.

It's because it freaks you out that you deny the science of the big bang. That and your ignorance.

 

[ding]

Who or what created the laws of nature?

They are an artifact of God being every extant attribute of reality; namely logic. This is a life breeding, intelligence creating universe because of the constant presence of mind.

 

[ding]

Not really. Nature comes before the "laws" describing how it operates. A creator could create universes with different attributes which would then be described as laws.

I don't believe that God can oppose his nature. As such the universe exists the way it does because the laws of nature are logical. God IS logic.... among other "things."

 

[ding]

even if we don't yet know anything about its beginning.

We know a great deal about its beginning.

The Early Universe

 

[zaangalewa]

I use to think that time didn't exist. That time was just a convenient way to demark the expansion of the universe. I now believe that time is the only thing that exists as everything unfolds in a sequential fashion because we exist in the mind of God.

Das Auge, mit dem mich Gott sieht,
ist das Auge, mit dem ich ihn sehe;
mein Auge und sein Auge ist eins.
Meister Eckhart von Hochheim
The eye with which God sees me
is the eye with which I see Him;
my eye and His eye are one.

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In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. He was in the beginning with God. All things were made through him, and without him was not any thing made that was made. In him was life, and the life was the light of men. The light shines in the darkness, and the darkness has not overcome it.
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Love is present in abundance in all things.
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​

 

[Dante]

The CMB, conservation, quantum mechanics and observations of matter / anti-matter popping into and out of existence in super-collider experiments says otherwise.

Brian Cox stories - he played keyboard before Thin Lizzie guy recruited him

22:06 minutes in:

And there's another description, by the way, of this world that we live in now, this is really cutting-edge stuff, there's an equivalent description of our experience in this theatre contained on a boundary surrounding the theatre, and it's called the holographic principle. So there are two ways, it seems, of describing our reality one is as a reality with gravity in it, and the three dimensions of space and time, and the other one is a pure quantum theory, on a boundary, and that's called the holographic principle because that's what a hologram is. So there's a sense in which we're all holograms, really strange. But it's interesting, isn't it, because it's the study of black holes, and then just doing some mathematics, which Stephen pioneered in the '70s, which has ultimately led to something deeply hidden.


Interviewer: "But they're still theories, aren't they, they're not proved?"

23:01 minutes in:

What's really interesting is that the very strange and arcane mathematics that are being used, it turns out it's the same mathematics that we use when we're programming quantum computers, and quantum computers are real things that we have in laboratories. It's the best argument, by the way, for funding blue skies research that you'll ever get. You know when politicians always say, why should we fund this stuff, what are you people doing thinking about black holes, you should think about something else that matters; actually, it turns out that there's been an intimate crossover between solving problems of error correction in the memory of quantum computers, which is fundamentally important, and the study of black holes.

23:46
That doesn't mean we live in a simulation, by the way, I think that would be pushing it a bit far, but it's very, very interesting.

23:54
I'll say this, I didn't say it in that clip, but every time you make a programme about Newton, or gravity, and the history of that science, we always talk about Galileo, and Galileo said that the book of nature is written in the language of mathematics, it's a very famous quote. In the 20th century, I think, well all the way through from Galileo, actually, through the 20th century, if you'd have said to people, what is God, you would have God is a mathematician, whatever God is, God is a mathematician.

24:26
And now, in the 21st century, partly motivated by the study of black holes, people are saying God looks more like a programmer, because it's information that seems to lie at the base of reality. So we're beginning to wander into the realm of information theory, which the great John Wheeler, one of my great heroes, actually, Kip Thorne, who worked on "Interstellar,"...

 

[ding]

Brian Cox stories - he played keyboard before Thin Lizzie guy recruited him

22:06 minutes in:

And there's another description, by the way, of this world that we live in now, this is really cutting-edge stuff, there's an equivalent description of our experience in this theatre contained on a boundary surrounding the theatre, and it's called the holographic principle. So there are two ways, it seems, of describing our reality one is as a reality with gravity in it, and the three dimensions of space and time, and the other one is a pure quantum theory, on a boundary, and that's called the holographic principle because that's what a hologram is. So there's a sense in which we're all holograms, really strange. But it's interesting, isn't it, because it's the study of black holes, and then just doing some mathematics, which Stephen pioneered in the '70s, which has ultimately led to something deeply hidden.


Interviewer: "But they're still theories, aren't they, they're not proved?"

23:01 minutes in:

What's really interesting is that the very strange and arcane mathematics that are being used, it turns out it's the same mathematics that we use when we're programming quantum computers, and quantum computers are real things that we have in laboratories. It's the best argument, by the way, for funding blue skies research that you'll ever get. You know when politicians always say, why should we fund this stuff, what are you people doing thinking about black holes, you should think about something else that matters; actually, it turns out that there's been an intimate crossover between solving problems of error correction in the memory of quantum computers, which is fundamentally important, and the study of black holes.

23:46
That doesn't mean we live in a simulation, by the way, I think that would be pushing it a bit far, but it's very, very interesting.

23:54
I'll say this, I didn't say it in that clip, but every time you make a programme about Newton, or gravity, and the history of that science, we always talk about Galileo, and Galileo said that the book of nature is written in the language of mathematics, it's a very famous quote. In the 20th century, I think, well all the way through from Galileo, actually, through the 20th century, if you'd have said to people, what is God, you would have God is a mathematician, whatever God is, God is a mathematician.

24:26
And now, in the 21st century, partly motivated by the study of black holes, people are saying God looks more like a programmer, because it's information that seems to lie at the base of reality. So we're beginning to wander into the realm of information theory, which the great John Wheeler, one of my great heroes, actually, Kip Thorne, who worked on "Interstellar,"...

It's why observation affects reality. I've known about this awhile. Look into "it from bit." The fundamental component of existence is information.

So here's my question to you... what is the relationship between existence and nature?

 

[Dante]

It's why observation affects reality. I've known about this awhile. Look into "it from bit." The fundamental component of existence is information.

So here's my question to you... what is the relationship between existence and nature?

I believe nature is the foundation of or for life as we understand it. Existence?

great quote: "Scientific Perspective: Both physicists emphasize the limitations of current knowledge, with Cox quoting Wheeler on how the "shores of our ignorance" expand alongside our knowledge"

 

[ding]

I believe nature is the foundation of or for life as we understand it. Existence?

The way I heard it explained - and it made sense to me - is that "existence" refers to the fact of being, while "nature" describes the inherent qualities, structure, and essence of that being. In other words, existence is what exists, nature describes existence. I think too often some confuse the two. With many times making nature the thing that exists instead of describing what exists which is existence itself.

great quote: "Scientific Perspective: Both physicists emphasize the limitations of current knowledge, with Cox quoting Wheeler on how the "shores of our ignorance" expand alongside our knowledge"

Very true. I also like “Where there’s smoke, there’s smoke.”

"...But Wheeler himself has suggested that there is nothing but smoke. “I do take 100 percent seriously the idea that the world is a figment of the imagination,” he told physicist/science writer Jeremy Bernstein in 1985. Wheeler must know that this view defies common sense: Where was mind when the universe was born? And what sustained the universe for the billions of years before we came to be? He nonetheless bravely offers us a lovely, chilling paradox: At the heart of everything is a question, not an answer. When you peer down into the deepest recesses of matter or at the farthest edge of the universe, you see, finally, your own puzzled face looking back at you."

Physicist John Wheeler and the “It from Bit” — John Horgan (The Science Writer)

June 29, 2023. Is quantum mechanics weird if no one is paying attention to it? Lots of people are paying attention to it now, including me . Two physicists often cited in debates about the theory’s meaning are John Wheeler and David Bohm, both of whom I interviewed in the early 1990s and featu

johnhorgan.org

 

[toobfreak]

It's why observation affects reality.

To be sure, our observation is our perception of reality.

So here's my question to you... what is the relationship between existence and nature?

At the most basic level, existence is the raw experience of living in nature.

 

[Fort Fun Indiana]

I believe nature is the foundation of or for life as we understand it. Existence?

great quote: "Scientific Perspective: Both physicists emphasize the limitations of current knowledge, with Cox quoting Wheeler on how the "shores of our ignorance" expand alongside our knowledge"

Not if you're a religious person who has fooled himself into thinking he has all the answers, but who actually doesn't have the answers.

 

[ding]

To be sure, our observation is our perception of reality.

Can you provide an example of what you mean?

At the most basic level, existence is the raw experience of living in nature.

The way I heard it explained is that "existence" refers to the fact of being, while "nature" describes the inherent qualities, structure, and essence of that being. In other words, existence is what exists, nature describes what exists.

 

[toobfreak]

Can you provide an example of what you mean?

Observation is our perception/measure of reality. Reality is that phenomenal state or plane which we perceive as a biological entity through our sensory perception. Thus, there is that reality as it stands absolute, separate from mankind, then there is the reality as we experience it through our process of interacting with/observing it. Put another way, you cannot observe reality without changing/interacting with it, so the reality we measure is that reality as it is with mankind interacting with it.

Put another way, like a lake on a mountain, in absolute terms, it exists with or without man, but our perception of it, observation of it can only be in terms of it being a lake touched by man. We can never see the true lake as it really sits without first being there to observe/interact with it, so to know it, is to alter it from its true nature.

The way I heard it explained is that "existence" refers to the fact of being, while "nature" describes the inherent qualities, structure, and essence of that being. In other words, existence is what exists, nature describes what exists.

Nature is that thing whose being creates the environment within which we exist and flourish in order to cogitate existence of both ourselves and the natural universe. To exist in nature is to experience nature on whatever plane we live in.

 

[Fort Fun Indiana]

To be sure, our observation is our perception of reality.


At the most basic level, existence is the raw experience of living in nature.

By that definition, the supernatural does not exist.

 

[ding]

Observation is our perception/measure of reality. Reality is that phenomenal state or plane which we perceive as a biological entity through our sensory perception. Thus, there is that reality as it stands absolute, separate from mankind, then there is the reality as we experience it through our process of interacting with/observing it. Put another way, you cannot observe reality without changing/interacting with it, so the reality we measure is that reality as it is with mankind interacting with it.

If you and I are observing the exact same thing at the exact same time, will we observe something different?

 

[ding]

Put another way, like a lake on a mountain, in absolute terms, it exists with or without man, but our perception of it, observation of it can only be in terms of it being a lake touched by man. We can never see the true lake as it really sits without first being there to observe/interact with it, so to know it, is to alter it from its true nature.

How do you know you altered it from its true nature? What is its true nature?

 

[ding]

Nature is that thing whose being creates the environment within which we exist and flourish in order to cogitate existence of both ourselves and the natural universe. To exist in nature is to experience nature on whatever plane we live in.

I see it as existence that gives life. I see nature as describing how existence behaves. Let's say you are a kind hearted person. We would say it is your nature to be kind. We wouldn't say that you are kindness. You are the thing that exists. KIndness is the nature of your existence.

 

[ding]

By that definition, the supernatural does not exist.

What exists outside of space and time is only supernatural to us.

 

[ding]

Not if you're a religious person who has fooled himself into thinking he has all the answers, but who actually doesn't have the answers.

Here's a question for you then. Maybe YOU will have an answer for it. Why are you at war with religious people? What have they ever done to you?