Ooo, ooo, ooo Tetracide!
These are all good points you bring, up all of which can be proven.
But maybe not in the way you think!
Unlike you, I AM willing to take responsibility for proving what can be proven.
I am very excited about the prospect of using science to proven spiritual things
taught in religion as faith based; and also reconciling natural laws with
divine laws by "aligning" the concepts, as parallels even if they are not exactly the same.
(Like aligning "Christ Jesus" with "restorative justice" to talk about the same
transformation process in a tangible way that HAS proven to "set people free"
from their past conflicts and suffering)
These "proofs" we are talkinga bout the "same God and Jesus" when we
seek "truth and justice" are still "faith-based" but so is any other proof
using science or any other frame of references; we agree to what we believe
is true, and we eliminate any conflicts or contradictions. So using science or
using the Bible or the principles in psychology or the civil laws; whatever
people use as their frame of reference to reach agreement in truth,
that is the same process, but just using different language and context.
First things first.
I want to OP to prove (s)he exists
I think, therefore I am.
So there are legal and ethical responsibilities involved, not just to be passive and wait for other people to prove their points, but to actively seek proof of methods that have been used to save lives, so that more people can be helped in time to prevent damage or death.
I have not a clue what you're talking about. If you are implying that prayer is useful, or that miracles exist, then you are barking up the wrong tree. Prayer has no observable, definable, scientific parameters. Miracles are in violation of the law of causality. So I do not know what you are trying to say.
Dear Tetracide: there is more and more scientific and medical research on the effects of healing prayer to achieve measurable physical results. The idea is that energy is connected, whether thoughts in the mind or in the physical matter. And removing blocks to that energy allows a greater flow, as normally exists. So the mind and body naturally is geared to heal itself, and prayer allows forgiveness to remove the negative thoughts or energy that can build up in the mind and also block the body from natural flow of energy.
I can post more on this if you like, but each person may respond or reject different proofs or studies, Most people learn this by experiencing it for themselves or seeing someone else in person change from being stuck or sick to being spiritually freed after praying for forgiveness to change their minds where they were not able to let go on their own will.
You cannot just wish alcohol or pedophile addiction away. These deep rooted abuses are in the spiritual level, and require several layers of forgiveness to remove all that addiction and the memories and fears stacked on top. This can all be demonstrated and described using psychology and also psychiatry, so it can be completely scientific.
both Peck and MacNutt cite the "false division between science and faith" that has obstructed more research and study from being focused and pursued in this area.
No one ever wants to be responsible nowadays.
You don't have to believe me. But I know that God lives because of my experiences with God. Because I can't show you my personal experiences doesn't mean they didn't happen.
The only way you can find out whether God is there is to learn for yourself through your experiences. And you are responsible for those. If you don't both seeking God to find out for yourself, you lose out on the blessings.
It's amazing that God provides a way to learn and people don't bother trying to find out for themselves.
First of all, in logic, the burden of proof (responsibility) resides with those making a claim. The theist makes the claim. The atheist does not.[/quote]
Boo boo, you just "made a claim" that "Prayer has no observable, definable, scientific parameters. Miracles are in violation of the law of causality."
some examples I can give you of how prayer can be studied scientifically
1. Daniel Amen has been using brain scan technology to show impaired/abnormal brain function before treatment and after when the brain function returns to normal. He uses a combination of meditation and prayer to recommend to patients how to change their thought patterns and habits from reinforcing negative to positive. And the results show up int eh brain scans before and after. So if you take this technology, and apply it to the observations Scott Peck made when studying exorcism techniques, before and after being applied to schizophrenic patients, then you can measure the before and after effects.
2. Francis MacNutt in his book on HEALING added a citation in his 1999 edition where medical doctors did study the effects of healing prayer on rheumatoid arthritis. In no case was there any ill side effect; some cases had no response; but in the cases that had positive effect, there were some cases so extremely changed, these were at tributed to the healing prayer. One man went from disabled in pain to be able to walk freely and completely cured. Unlike the medications that only alleviate the symptoms, he had no symptoms left at all and did not need to continue any treatment. These studies can be repeated. The common factor in the process is receiving prayer to forgive even things in the far spiritual past that may be causing the blockage to natural healing. And when the blocks are removed, the healing can be increased to whatever degree may result. That part may not be predictable. some achieve spiritual mental healing, others physical as well, so it varies. But it never causes harm. And it does not require rejecting medical or other treatment, but spiritual healing prayer factilitates and works alongside science and medicine to maximize the effectiveness. In the case of Peck's patients, they could not even follow therapy or respond at all to instructions UNTIL AFTER the exorcism prayer was applied first to get rid of the spiritual negative ifluences like demonic voices obstructing the patients' minds and free will. whether or not these voices are real, they were removed by the prayer proces swhere the patients regained control of their will and reason in order to comply with treatment and work the rest out using the traditional therapy.
3. Larry Dossey and Dale Matthews wrote books on research into prayer. One book cites a Princeton study on randomlychosen people asked to apply their thoughts or mind to making certain number sequences appear in a random generator process. Not only did the thoughts correlate to measurable increases in hits vs random patterns; but the thoughts/prayers could occur either before or after the generator process was done,
and the changes in hits was the same before or after; so this showed that whatever influence was being measured was not affected by linear time. I think that is fascinating and worth looking in to further.
Now, you could say the researchis biased. if thoughts/prayers can affect phuysical changes or outcome, then the thoughts/prayers of all the resaerachers and observers also bias the outcome. True. but that still proves the point, that there is energy connectiona nd influene between our throught/prayers in our minds and "spirit" and changes to perceptions and also physical realtions. Heisenberg said something like you cannot observe something without changing it, because there is energy involved even in that process.
So science can show there is consistent connection ehre, it is not aginst science.
or othe laws of physics but perfectly naturally as part of the life energy in nature and in the world being connected as energy.
Tetracide said:
Secondly, you are right, I do not have to believe you. I can accept that you have chosen to surrender reason, man's only means of knowledge acquisition, in favor of faith, the acceptance of claims without evidence. However, you must admit that your position does not rest on any reason whatsoever. If you wish to discuss your experiences with God, I would love to hear them and ask you questions. If not, you - and your untenable position - can retreat into silence.
"However, you must admit that your position does not rest on any reason whatsoever."
OOO OOO Tetracide you just made another claim!
Do you take responsiblity for proving your point and backing it up?
I can take responsibility for proving there is reason and scientific explanatio
to back up what I say.
Thank you Tetracide!
Your points are viable and valuable and I do believe they are worth proving by science
for the benefit of truth and undestanding on all sides.
Yours truly,
Emily
