Most Conservatives Still Believe The Civil War Wasn't Over Slavery

[Avatar4321]

It is despicable

Would have been better to just abandon slavery like other nations did

I don't disagree, but do you really believe there would never have been a war? Do you honestly believe that no state would attempt to leave the union, as they had threatened prior to 1860?

The entire western world ended slavery without a shot fired, with one notable exception. Something Lincoln Cultists never consider.

My thinking is if not for Dishonest Abe, we too would have ended slavery without a shot fired.

Something the Confederate cultists never consider is as the rest of the Western world was ending slavery and emancipating their slaves- the Confederates sought to prevent that by trying to permanently protect their legal slavery by leaving the United States- and then going to war to protect their state's 'rights' to own slaves.

My thinking if it were not for the racist Confederates who tried to ensure their ownership of slaves- that in the United States slavery would have ended- eventually- like maybe after another generation or two or three of black slaves in America.

Or there might still be black slaves sweeping the streets of Atlanta.

Democrats never were smart

 

[Syriusly]

The South was capable of paying its workforce. Cotton was a huge cash cow and plantation owners made fortunes. The workers who planted, maintained the crop, picked the crop and brought it to market received zero compensation.

The Aristocrats and Sweatshop Owners Get Off Scot-Free in This MInd-Controlled Thread

The Africans got room and board, protection from their own predators, medical services, and many other benefits they never got back in the jungle. Most Whites at the time lived in misery, with the Jews and Irish being treated worse than slaves. The most miserable lifestyle in the whole world was that of the Africans who got stuck back in the jungle. That is, if you don't consider selling their fellow Blacks into slavery as being high entertainment.

Your posting style is tedious

Your celebration of slavery is not worth reading

Hell the emancipation proclamation wasn't signed till 1863. That should tell anyone smarter than a rock that slavery wasn't the major cause of the civil war. If it had been that bill would have been signed three years earlier.

Like many of the defenders of the Confederacy you keep bringing up this fallacy.

The United States did not enter the war to end slavery.
But the Confederate Slave states left the Union to perpetuate slavery- and to defend their "rights" to perpetuate slavery and own human property- attacked troops of the United States Army.

I'm not defending the Confederacy. I'm merely stating that slavery wasn't the only issue about the Civil War. States Rights was the main issue and slavery was another issue.

The north wasn't against slavery. It was legal.

They left the Union because they didn't see eye to eye with those in power. Slavery was part of it but States rights was the bigger part.

Slavery was not the 'only issue' but it was the main- the pre-eminent issue- and the reason why the Confederate states chose to secede after the election of Abraham Lincoln.

The only 'state' rights that get mentioned are the rights that have to do with slavery.

And actually- most of the North was against slavery- Lincoln was a compromise candidate because he was not a full blown abolitionist- but a large proportion of the North was either fully abolitionist or leaning towards abolition.

No one disputed that it was legal- abolitionist believed that legal slavery was morally wrong- and that the laws should be changed.

The Southern slave states tried to secede because they believed that the Northern States would eventually have the political power to be able to make slavery illegal- thus 'interfering' with their 'states rights"

 

[Syriusly]

It is despicable

Would have been better to just abandon slavery like other nations did

I don't disagree, but do you really believe there would never have been a war? Do you honestly believe that no state would attempt to leave the union, as they had threatened prior to 1860?

The entire western world ended slavery without a shot fired, with one notable exception. Something Lincoln Cultists never consider.

My thinking is if not for Dishonest Abe, we too would have ended slavery without a shot fired.

Something the Confederate cultists never consider is as the rest of the Western world was ending slavery and emancipating their slaves- the Confederates sought to prevent that by trying to permanently protect their legal slavery by leaving the United States- and then going to war to protect their state's 'rights' to own slaves.

My thinking if it were not for the racist Confederates who tried to ensure their ownership of slaves- that in the United States slavery would have ended- eventually- like maybe after another generation or two or three of black slaves in America.

Or there might still be black slaves sweeping the streets of Atlanta.

Democrats never were smart

Yeah- this Democrat- not smart for defending the actions of the Republican President whose actions preserved the Union and resulted in the end of slavery in the United States.

I can take that criticism.

 

[ATL]

so your position is that secession caused the war and slavery caused secession, but slavery didn't cause the war?

Had Lincoln declared that the war was to end slavery, it would have been so. Neither he, nor anyone else, said "we are going to war to end slavery."

THEREFORE, slavery did not cause the war.

Had slave states remained in the Union, there would have been no war.

THUS, secession caused the war. Not slavery.

Can you connect the dots?

Yea, Lincoln knew he couldn't say he was fighting for the end of slavery, because there was still too many people on the fence about it. He did the same thing Trump did to win, instead of talking about building a wall, he said he didn't care to end slavery.

Good God...that is so incorrect. Lincoln had no intention of freeing the slaves. He NEVER wanted to free the slaves. He didn't give a shit about the slaves. In his first inaugural, he stated clearly and unambiguously that he would ensconce slavery into the Constitution, if that would keep the south in the Union. Why have you failed to read it? He was the worst kind of white supremacist, even in his day. He intended to deport all blacks after the war.

Lincoln was no saint. Rather...he was the opposite.

How many slaves did he deport? Who signed the emancipation proclamation?

Lincoln said what he needed to in order to not be seen as a radical and get elected. Trump said he was going to build a wall and make Mexico pay for it, where is the wall?

Yep that is the tell of the anti-Lincolnites- rather than content themselves with the facts they resort to lies in order to malign Lincoln.

Lets take a few of them:

• He intended to deport all blacks after the war- nowhere did Lincoln state or indicate any plan to 'deport' former slaves- Lincoln- like many abolitionists of the time- believed that the former slaves would want to leave the United States and proposed voluntary colonization elsewhere- flat out lie.
• He was the worst kind of white supremacist, even in his day- Isn't it odd- that you consider Lincoln to be 'the worst kind of racist'- not the men who owned black slaves- or the men who hung black slaves- or the men who went to war to enshrine their 'right' to own black slaves? Lincoln was the kind of 'white supremacist who had consistently been opposed to the institution of slavery- and ultimately made the decisions that ended slavery in America. That is who you target as the 'worst kind of white supremacist'. By our standards Lincoln was a racist- no doubt- but virtually everyone- even abolitionists- were racists by today's standards. By 1860's standards Lincoln was a moderate.
• Lincoln had no intention of freeing the slaves. He NEVER wanted to free the slaves. Lincoln get elected with that intention- or begin the war with that intention- yet he was always opposed to slavery. And he did intentionally sign the Emancipation Proclamation- no one forced him to- because he believed that by 1863- that was the best course for the United States.

You know who didn't want to free the slaves?

The Confederate Slave states that tried to flee the United States to maintain their ownership of human property.

You know really were the 'worst kind of racists' of the day- the ones who fought a war to preserve their right to own black slaves.

Mic drop.

White nationalists/social cons will always try to paint people like Lincoln as white supremacists in order to deflect from their hatred.

 

[Bootney Lee Farnsworth]

Don't let the facts intrude on this Confederate love fest.

The Emancipation Proclamation is an odd document to watch the contards twist themselves into pretzels about.

You have the one side who proudly lie that the Emancipation Proclamation didn't free a single slave- and that is of course false- but they make the lie to diminish the importance of it.

Then you have the other group which proclaims the EP was illegal- deftly ignoring the actual wording of the EP and the legal argument behind it.

And then you have those who make both claims- because of course they want to argue that a) Lincoln did nothing to free any slaves- and it was illegal for him to to it!

From the History Channel:

"While the Emancipation Proclamation did not free a single slave, it was an important turning point in the war, transforming the fight to preserve the nation into a battle for human freedom."

Emancipation Proclamation - American Civil War - HISTORY.com

That one sentence pretty much summarizes what I have been arguing all along.

Is someone going to tell us that the History Channel is wrong?

 

[Syriusly]

Then there's this;

Nonsense. 620,000 didn't lose their lives in the North. And if you asked the northern whites "what are you fighting for?" Do you honestly believe they'd say "to free the negro."????

620,000 did die in a war over slavery

No. Most experts now believe the total number of deaths in Dishonest Abe's War of Northern Aggression was 850,000 AMERICANS....including women and children killed by the Union Army.

...and you find this admirable.

Statists UGH! The most murderous group in history.

Yep- those Confederate Slave States didn't kill any women or children.

Or enslave any of them either.

They were just happily minding their own business with the Americans who volunteered to be their slaves and be worked to death and raped by mastah.

 

[Pogo]

The only one celebrating slavery seems to be you.

No one on this board approved of slavery. It was barbaric and everyone on this board knows it. The op is about what caused the Civil War.

You think it was slavery. I and others think it was more about State Rights. Slavery was a part of it but not the main part. We have a difference of opinion. Period.

Hell the emancipation proclamation wasn't signed till 1863. That should tell anyone smarter than a rock that slavery wasn't the major cause of the civil war. If it had been that bill would have been signed three years earlier.

It wasn't a bill, it was an illegal proclamation made by Lincoln. Slavery wasn't officially abolished until the passage of the 13th Amendment.


.

True the Emancipation Proclamation wasn't made until 1863- but illegal?

Never was declared so- and Lincoln carefully worded it to be within his authority as the Commander in Chief-

Just the lovers of the Rebel Slave states are pissed off that Lincoln told their slaves that they would be freed.

There is nothing in the Constitution that allows the commander in chief to unilaterally write laws. Slavery was legal, he had no authority to declare it otherwise, by proclamation.

I think the difference is the EP wasn't a "law" of the United States. It was a military order effective in occupied war territory (the Confederacy had by definition left the United States).

The EP did not "declare slavery illegal". It only declared that those who had been slaves in certain occupied territory were freed of their status. Actually abolition of Slavery was effected by the 13th Amendment in December of 1865, at which time none of the seceded states had been readmitted yet.

Don't let the facts intrude on this Confederate love fest.

The Emancipation Proclamation is an odd document to watch the contards twist themselves into pretzels about.

You have the one side who proudly lie that the Emancipation Proclamation didn't free a single slave- and that is of course false- but they make the lie to diminish the importance of it.

Then you have the other group which proclaims the EP was illegal- deftly ignoring the actual wording of the EP and the legal argument behind it.

And then you have those who make both claims- because of course they want to argue that a) Lincoln did nothing to free any slaves- and it was illegal for him to to it!

OKT's trying to use weasel words to first have it both ways, and then deny he wanted to have it the way that got busted.

It's a popular sport here. Where nobody ever wins.

 

[Mike Dwight]

Gipper is just lying and fibbing at you anyway, Syriusly, he's talking out of nothing. The Baptist War check that, its the Jamaican slave revolt that ended british slavery. Check the Hatian slave revolt its basically the end of French slavery Much earlier. Shots fired! I don't give the abolitionist Europe this huge credit then , really, for losing all slave colonies. And OK Sure they then decided to Give Up and Outlaw slavery, but it was Their Christian God that allowed the early US this moral direction that was the legal precedent Dixie wanted everyone to note. Where did they have left?
You are ignoring John Brown again. Its like the assassination of the prince of Austria-Hungary starting world war 1 and millions of war deaths is assumed, but a crazy radical terrorist, repeating, murdering radical terrorist without a nice act to his name, raided the Harper's Ferry arsenal for weapons to give to killers, to end slavery, that Robert E Lee was US Marine colonel retook the arsenal, and that his hanging was in question by any of the states?

Actually, in a war of 700,000 dead, there were 50,000 civilians dead? Look ANYWHERE IN ANY WAR FOR THAT! Men of American character chose to meet in the field for the Duel of Honor. People tend to trace where this was not so, one Russian Northern general tended to burn towns looking for sympathizers.

 

[Pogo]

Don't let the facts intrude on this Confederate love fest.

The Emancipation Proclamation is an odd document to watch the contards twist themselves into pretzels about.

You have the one side who proudly lie that the Emancipation Proclamation didn't free a single slave- and that is of course false- but they make the lie to diminish the importance of it.

Then you have the other group which proclaims the EP was illegal- deftly ignoring the actual wording of the EP and the legal argument behind it.

And then you have those who make both claims- because of course they want to argue that a) Lincoln did nothing to free any slaves- and it was illegal for him to to it!

From the History Channel:

"While the Emancipation Proclamation did not free a single slave, it was an important turning point in the war, transforming the fight to preserve the nation into a battle for human freedom."

Emancipation Proclamation - American Civil War - HISTORY.com

That one sentence pretty much summarizes what I have been arguing all along.

Is someone going to tell us that the History Channel is wrong?

Without even clicking that link I can assure you from prior experience that History Channel is often wrong, and more often way oversimplified and/or dumbed-down.

It's a commercial entertainment enterprise, not an encyclopedia.

 

[Syriusly]

Don't let the facts intrude on this Confederate love fest.

The Emancipation Proclamation is an odd document to watch the contards twist themselves into pretzels about.

You have the one side who proudly lie that the Emancipation Proclamation didn't free a single slave- and that is of course false- but they make the lie to diminish the importance of it.

Then you have the other group which proclaims the EP was illegal- deftly ignoring the actual wording of the EP and the legal argument behind it.

And then you have those who make both claims- because of course they want to argue that a) Lincoln did nothing to free any slaves- and it was illegal for him to to it!

From the History Channel:

"While the Emancipation Proclamation did not free a single slave, it was an important turning point in the war, transforming the fight to preserve the nation into a battle for human freedom."

Emancipation Proclamation - American Civil War - HISTORY.com

That one sentence pretty much summarizes what I have been arguing all along.

Is someone going to tell us that the History Channel is wrong?

The History Channel is wrong.

But you knew that- this is all from Wikipedia- but you are welcome to go the primary sources cited in Wikipedia if you want to try to prove me wrong:
Emancipation Proclamation - Wikipedia

Around 25,000 to 75,000 slaves in regions where the US Army was active were immediately emancipated. It could not be enforced in areas still under rebellion, but, as the Union army took control of Confederate regions, the Proclamation provided the legal framework for freeing more than three and a half million slaves in those regions. Prior to the Proclamation, in accordance with the Fugitive Slave Act of 1850, escaped slaves were either returned to their masters or held in camps as contraband for later return. The Proclamation applied only to slaves in Confederate-held lands;


However, as a result of the Proclamation, many slaves were freed during the course of the war, beginning with the day it took effect; eyewitness accounts at places such as Hilton Head, South Carolina,[80] and Port Royal, South Carolina[77] record celebrations on January 1 as thousands of blacks were informed of their new legal status of freedom. Estimates of how many thousands of slaves were freed immediately by the Emancipation Proclamation are varied. One contemporary estimate put the 'contraband' population of Union-occupied North Carolina at 10,000, and the Sea Islands of South Carolina also had a substantial population. Those 20,000 slaves were freed immediately by the Emancipation Proclamation."[28] This Union-occupied zone where freedom began at once included parts of eastern North Carolina, the Mississippi Valley, northern Alabama, the Shenandoah Valley of Virginia, a large part of Arkansas, and the Sea Islands of Georgia and South Carolina.[81] Although some counties of Union-occupied Virginia were exempted from the Proclamation, the lower Shenandoah Valley, and the area around Alexandria were covered.[28] Emancipation was immediately enforced as Union soldiers advanced into the Confederacy. Slaves fled their masters and were often assisted by Union soldiers.[82]

Booker T. Washington, as a boy of 9 in Virginia, remembered the day in early 1865:[83]

As the great day drew nearer, there was more singing in the slave quarters than usual. It was bolder, had more ring, and lasted later into the night. Most of the verses of the plantation songs had some reference to freedom. ... Some man who seemed to be a stranger (a United States officer, I presume) made a little speech and then read a rather long paper—the Emancipation Proclamation, I think. After the reading we were told that we were all free, and could go when and where we pleased. My mother, who was standing by my side, leaned over and kissed her children, while tears of joy ran down her cheeks. She explained to us what it all meant, that this was the day for which she had been so long praying, but fearing that she would never live to see.

 

[Bootney Lee Farnsworth]

White nationalists/social cons will always try to paint people like Lincoln as white supremacists in order to deflect from their hatred.

I am neither a white supremacist nor a conservative.

The only people I hate are those who threaten liberty.

From Snopes on the question of whether Lincoln was a white supremacist, they cite what Lincoln said during the Lincoln-Douglass debate:

“I am not, nor ever have been, in favor of bringing about in any way the social and political equality of the white and black races … I am not nor ever have been in favor of making voters or jurors of Negroes, nor of qualifying them to hold office, nor to intermarry with white people; and I will say in addition to this that there is a physical difference between the white and black races which I believe will forever forbid the two races from living together on terms of social and political equality. And inasmuch as they cannot so live, while they do remain together there must be a position of superior and inferior, and I as much as any other man am in favor of having the superior position assigned to the white race.”

https://www.snopes.com/fact-check/did-lincoln-racism-equality-oppose/

MIC DROP!!!

 

[Syriusly]

It wasn't a bill, it was an illegal proclamation made by Lincoln. Slavery wasn't officially abolished until the passage of the 13th Amendment.


.

True the Emancipation Proclamation wasn't made until 1863- but illegal?

Never was declared so- and Lincoln carefully worded it to be within his authority as the Commander in Chief-

Just the lovers of the Rebel Slave states are pissed off that Lincoln told their slaves that they would be freed.

There is nothing in the Constitution that allows the commander in chief to unilaterally write laws. Slavery was legal, he had no authority to declare it otherwise, by proclamation.

I think the difference is the EP wasn't a "law" of the United States. It was a military order effective in occupied war territory (the Confederacy had by definition left the United States).

The EP did not "declare slavery illegal". It only declared that those who had been slaves in certain occupied territory were freed of their status. Actually abolition of Slavery was effected by the 13th Amendment in December of 1865, at which time none of the seceded states had been readmitted yet.

Don't let the facts intrude on this Confederate love fest.

The Emancipation Proclamation is an odd document to watch the contards twist themselves into pretzels about.

You have the one side who proudly lie that the Emancipation Proclamation didn't free a single slave- and that is of course false- but they make the lie to diminish the importance of it.

Then you have the other group which proclaims the EP was illegal- deftly ignoring the actual wording of the EP and the legal argument behind it.

And then you have those who make both claims- because of course they want to argue that a) Lincoln did nothing to free any slaves- and it was illegal for him to to it!

OKT's trying to use weasel words to first have it both ways, and then deny he wanted to have it the way that got busted.

It's a popular sport here. Where nobody ever wins.

Remember- no one here is every defending slavery- or their slave owners- they are just pissed off at Lincoln for being the tyrant that didn't let the slave owners take their human 'toys' home when they thought people might try to take them away.

 

[Bootney Lee Farnsworth]

The History Channel is wrong.

I will trust the History Channel, not you.

 

[Syriusly]

White nationalists/social cons will always try to paint people like Lincoln as white supremacists in order to deflect from their hatred.

I am neither a white supremacist nor a conservative.

The only people I hate are those who threaten liberty.

From Snopes on the question of whether Lincoln was a white supremacist, they cite what Lincoln said during the Lincoln-Douglass debate:

“I am not, nor ever have been, in favor of bringing about in any way the social and political equality of the white and black races … I am not nor ever have been in favor of making voters or jurors of Negroes, nor of qualifying them to hold office, nor to intermarry with white people; and I will say in addition to this that there is a physical difference between the white and black races which I believe will forever forbid the two races from living together on terms of social and political equality. And inasmuch as they cannot so live, while they do remain together there must be a position of superior and inferior, and I as much as any other man am in favor of having the superior position assigned to the white race.”

https://www.snopes.com/fact-check/did-lincoln-racism-equality-oppose/

MIC DROP!!!

Of course Lincoln was a racist.

Virtually everyone in 1860 was a racist.

But Lincoln was a racist who thought slavery barbaric

I have always hated slavery, I think as much as any Abolitionist.
--July 10, 1858 Speech at Chicago

You know I dislike slavery; and you fully admit the abstract wrong of it.
--August 24, 1855 Letter to Joshua Speed

The slave-breeders and slave-traders, are a small, odious and detested class, among you; and yet in politics, they dictate the course of all of you, and are as completely your masters, as you are the master of your own negroes.
--August 24, 1855 Letter to Joshua Speed

Now I confess myself as belonging to that class in the country who contemplate slavery as a moral, social and political evil.
--October 7, 1858 Debate at Galesburg, Illinois

So Lincoln was a racist who opposed slavery.

As opposed to say this man- speaking for the new Confederate Government:
Alexander Stephans- Vice President of the Confederacy

Our new government is founded upon exactly [this] idea; its foundations are laid, its cornerstone rests upon the great truth, that the negro is not equal to the white man; that slavery -- subordination to the superior race -- is his natural and normal condition. This, our new government, is the first, in the history of the world, based upon this great physical, philosophical, and moral truth.[1]

 

[Syriusly]

The History Channel is wrong.

I will trust the History Channel, not you.

Of course you will trust whatever citation you can find on the internet that supports your little historical prejudices.

I gave you the citation- I am not shocked you don't pursue the facts.

 

[Bootney Lee Farnsworth]

Of course Lincoln was a racist.

Virtually everyone in 1860 was a racist.

That was in response the ALT who claimed that Lincoln was NOT a white supremacist.

 

[rightwinger]

The Aristocrats and Sweatshop Owners Get Off Scot-Free in This MInd-Controlled Thread

The Africans got room and board, protection from their own predators, medical services, and many other benefits they never got back in the jungle. Most Whites at the time lived in misery, with the Jews and Irish being treated worse than slaves. The most miserable lifestyle in the whole world was that of the Africans who got stuck back in the jungle. That is, if you don't consider selling their fellow Blacks into slavery as being high entertainment.

Your posting style is tedious

Your celebration of slavery is not worth reading

Hell the emancipation proclamation wasn't signed till 1863. That should tell anyone smarter than a rock that slavery wasn't the major cause of the civil war. If it had been that bill would have been signed three years earlier.

Like many of the defenders of the Confederacy you keep bringing up this fallacy.

The United States did not enter the war to end slavery.
But the Confederate Slave states left the Union to perpetuate slavery- and to defend their "rights" to perpetuate slavery and own human property- attacked troops of the United States Army.

I'm not defending the Confederacy. I'm merely stating that slavery wasn't the only issue about the Civil War. States Rights was the main issue and slavery was another issue.

The north wasn't against slavery. It was legal.

They left the Union because they didn't see eye to eye with those in power. Slavery was part of it but States rights was the bigger part.

Slavery was not the 'only issue' but it was the main- the pre-eminent issue- and the reason why the Confederate states chose to secede after the election of Abraham Lincoln.

The only 'state' rights that get mentioned are the rights that have to do with slavery.

And actually- most of the North was against slavery- Lincoln was a compromise candidate because he was not a full blown abolitionist- but a large proportion of the North was either fully abolitionist or leaning towards abolition.

No one disputed that it was legal- abolitionist believed that legal slavery was morally wrong- and that the laws should be changed.

The Southern slave states tried to secede because they believed that the Northern States would eventually have the political power to be able to make slavery illegal- thus 'interfering' with their 'states rights"

Slavery was the only issue they were willing to go to war over

 

[Bootney Lee Farnsworth]

Of course you will trust whatever citation you can find on the internet that supports your little historical prejudices.

I gave you the citation- I am not shocked you don't pursue the facts.

Even if you are right, you were shitting on people who believed that the Emancipation Proclamation didn't free slaves when the ******* HISTORY CHANNEL said the same thing.

 

[Bootney Lee Farnsworth]

Slavery was the only issue they were willing to go to war over

Slave states? Yes. I agree.

The Union and Lincoln were not willing to go to war over it.

 

[Pellinore]

Secession was about slavery. The Civil War wasnt about slavery. The Civil War was about secession.

Exactly. We have Lincoln's own words to back this up.

No you don't. You think you do because you're taking his letter to Horace Greeley out of context.

It's Real Americans Against the Born Rich. Blacks Are Irrelevant.

Greeley also said, "We can always hire half the poor to kill the other half." Once again, that proves that the Abolitionists were vicious plutocratic snobs.

That was Jay Gould, not Horace Greeley, and it was only attributed second-hand, and it was about farmers rather than the poor.