Mosque On Ground Zero. An Act Of Aggression: Yea Or Nay?

[goldcatt]

I do not think this has anything to do with Bin Laden as a man.

It has to do with how many that lost loved ones view ground zero.

I was a second responder....I was there the very next morning at 6AM and was on again off again 12 hour shifts for 3 days...I saw how these people viewd ground zero up close and in person. They saw it as a tomb of their loved ones. Some asked me to take a rose and lay it on the rubble. Another asked me to read a poem out loud to her husband at the base of tower 1...

As tough as it was to work the RandR, it was even tougher to go through the cleaning up process at the end of the shift becuase that was where all of the family memebers were waiting and wailing....

Now, you couple that with the fact that it is Muslim practice to build a Mosque at the point of victory, and I see why they are upset.

Again, this was not an act of Isalm. This was an act of Terror by those that used their interpretation of Islam as justification.

People, Muslims, Jews, Christians, Hindus, etc....ALL need to respect this...and put their idological beliefs aside.

Not to go political with this....but we are in an age where the Speaker of the House deems it appropriate to march through a large group of protestors holding a large oversized gavel which is, in a way saying "in your face"....and the left said it was justified.

Heck, I wonder if those people would have deemed it appropriate for Rove and Cheney to be walking through a large group of anti war protesters toting a large helium filled balloon in the image of an F-16.....

Hmmm...

I see your point here. And that must have been a hellish experience, you have my respect for being there. Unfortunately I was more than a thousand miles away, I would have given a lot to be able to be there. But that's a personal story for another time and place, perhaps.

I'm not talking about bin Laden the man. I'm talking about the need for somebody to blame, and for closure. So many on this thread and everywhere seem to blame Muslims in general for what happened instead of focusing on the individual people responsible. And I can see the temptation in that, it's human. I'm just wondering if closure with the real perpetrator would have made a difference in a lot of people's attitudes, in the rawness so many still have and in that broad brush being used against Muslims in general that fuels so much of the emotional response against this particular project.

I guess we'll never know.

You're certainly entitled to your opinion, and I do see where you're coming from. In my opinion though, the larger principle is more important. It's been almost nine years. Can't we pull together, let it go and figure out how to move on? Or will we be stuck here for the next generation or two, until everyone who remembers is gone?

 

[ConHog]

I agree with alot...no....most of what you say.
However, I too had a part of 9-11 beyond just being an American. Yes, it was terrorists that did it, not Muslims as a whole. However, the terrorists used their warped interpretation of their religion to justufy their actions.

I do not mind them building there. Instead, I am more concerned why our politicians are not expressing more of a concern for their building there. Our politicians should be out there saying, "yes, you may if you wish, but we ask you to first consider how this may make others feel".....

Instead, our politicians are making this an ideological debate and ignoring basic human decency....and as I see how others debate this topic on this board, it appears poeople in general are making this a basic ideological debate without consdideration of basic human decency.

I swear this is true.....

I was talking with my neghbor about 15 years ago. My boss at the time was buying a new car and he offered to sell me his Mercedes for a steal....it was valued at over 25K used and he was selling it to me for 5K....well.....in exchange for a 5K bonus I was due.....

My neighbor proceeded to tell me how her uncle who she never met, was a vicxtim of the Holocost and she would never buy a German made "anything".

My attitude? The Germans of the 40's killed her uncle, not the Germans of today.

However, if a Mercedes reminded her of what happened to her Uncle, I found it insensitive to have it parked in a driveway right next door to her.

So I passed on the car. Stupid? Maybe. Being human and understanding? Certainly was worth it.

Understanding and respecting the phobias and worries of our fellow Americans is what I see America all about.

I am an early riser. I would love to powerwash my fence on a Sunday morning. No law stops me from doing it. But I dont. I respect my neighbors wishes to sleep later on Sunday.

I see what you're saying here, and honestly I can understand how some people will take this as an affront. Yes, to those people it is insensitive. I can see that.

But there are larger principles at stake here than the noise of power washing your fence early in the morning, or even the choice of vehicle parked in your driveway. We're talking about who we are and what we stand for as a nation as well as how we move forward. Do we stand, do we run, do we lash out, do we crawl?

Personally, I prefer to stand. It's just that simple. I realize there is no one right answer, but IMO there are wrong ones.

But I do have one question. If we had captured bin Laden and had a trial and execution, if there had been closure and accountability in that way, would everybody speaking out against this project still feel the same way?

If I was seeing serious efforts by Muslims to help apprehend Bin Laden then Yes I would feel differently about this mosque. I do not see that however. I would bet my entire retirement fund that the Pakistani government could locate Bin Laden within a week if they so chose, if indeed they don't already know his location. They WOULD choose to if enough Muslims were putting pressure on them. But none do, why because they don't want him found. It's THAT simple.

 

[del]

I agree with alot...no....most of what you say.
However, I too had a part of 9-11 beyond just being an American. Yes, it was terrorists that did it, not Muslims as a whole. However, the terrorists used their warped interpretation of their religion to justufy their actions.

I do not mind them building there. Instead, I am more concerned why our politicians are not expressing more of a concern for their building there. Our politicians should be out there saying, "yes, you may if you wish, but we ask you to first consider how this may make others feel".....

Instead, our politicians are making this an ideological debate and ignoring basic human decency....and as I see how others debate this topic on this board, it appears poeople in general are making this a basic ideological debate without consdideration of basic human decency.

I swear this is true.....

I was talking with my neghbor about 15 years ago. My boss at the time was buying a new car and he offered to sell me his Mercedes for a steal....it was valued at over 25K used and he was selling it to me for 5K....well.....in exchange for a 5K bonus I was due.....

My neighbor proceeded to tell me how her uncle who she never met, was a vicxtim of the Holocost and she would never buy a German made "anything".

My attitude? The Germans of the 40's killed her uncle, not the Germans of today.

However, if a Mercedes reminded her of what happened to her Uncle, I found it insensitive to have it parked in a driveway right next door to her.

So I passed on the car. Stupid? Maybe. Being human and understanding? Certainly was worth it.

Understanding and respecting the phobias and worries of our fellow Americans is what I see America all about.

I am an early riser. I would love to powerwash my fence on a Sunday morning. No law stops me from doing it. But I dont. I respect my neighbors wishes to sleep later on Sunday.

I see what you're saying here, and honestly I can understand how some people will take this as an affront. Yes, to those people it is insensitive. I can see that.

But there are larger principles at stake here than the noise of power washing your fence early in the morning, or even the choice of vehicle parked in your driveway. We're talking about who we are and what we stand for as a nation as well as how we move forward. Do we stand, do we run, do we lash out, do we crawl?

Personally, I prefer to stand. It's just that simple. I realize there is no one right answer, but IMO there are wrong ones.

But I do have one question. If we had captured bin Laden and had a trial and execution, if there had been closure and accountability in that way, would everybody speaking out against this project still feel the same way?

If I was seeing serious efforts by Muslims to help apprehend Bin Laden then Yes I would feel differently about this mosque. I do not see that however. I would bet my entire retirement fund that the Pakistani government could locate Bin Laden within a week if they so chose, if indeed they don't already know his location. They WOULD choose to if enough Muslims were putting pressure on them. But none do, why because they don't want him found. It's THAT simple.

if anyone can break a twenty, i'd be happy to take your bet.

 

[Shogun]

I see what you're saying here, and honestly I can understand how some people will take this as an affront. Yes, to those people it is insensitive. I can see that.

But there are larger principles at stake here than the noise of power washing your fence early in the morning, or even the choice of vehicle parked in your driveway. We're talking about who we are and what we stand for as a nation as well as how we move forward. Do we stand, do we run, do we lash out, do we crawl?

Personally, I prefer to stand. It's just that simple. I realize there is no one right answer, but IMO there are wrong ones.

But I do have one question. If we had captured bin Laden and had a trial and execution, if there had been closure and accountability in that way, would everybody speaking out against this project still feel the same way?

If I was seeing serious efforts by Muslims to help apprehend Bin Laden then Yes I would feel differently about this mosque. I do not see that however. I would bet my entire retirement fund that the Pakistani government could locate Bin Laden within a week if they so chose, if indeed they don't already know his location. They WOULD choose to if enough Muslims were putting pressure on them. But none do, why because they don't want him found. It's THAT simple.

if anyone can break a twenty, i'd be happy to take your bet.

Clearly, Ibrim the local muslim had better send an email to the.. uh.. Pakistani government! I'm sure they are waiting for nothing less than some input from American muslims in order to apprehend OBL.

 

[del]

If I was seeing serious efforts by Muslims to help apprehend Bin Laden then Yes I would feel differently about this mosque. I do not see that however. I would bet my entire retirement fund that the Pakistani government could locate Bin Laden within a week if they so chose, if indeed they don't already know his location. They WOULD choose to if enough Muslims were putting pressure on them. But none do, why because they don't want him found. It's THAT simple.

if anyone can break a twenty, i'd be happy to take your bet.

Clearly, Ibrim the local muslim had better send an email to the.. uh.. Pakistani government! I'm sure they are waiting for nothing less than some input from American muslims in order to apprehend OBL.

i've always contended that one of the biggest mistakes the boooosh admin made was not pursuing an email campaign to trap OBL.

 

[geauxtohell]

So.....

In summation:

The opponents of this mosque/cultural center oppose it because it is "insensitive" due to being "too close" to ground zero (without giving a distance they think would be appropriate) but admit that, legally speaking, this group has every right to build there.

In other words, "tough shit". You guys should find a nice corner of the room to go and have a pity party for yourselves

 

[WillowTree]

So.....

In summation:

The opponents of this mosque/cultural center oppose it because it is "insensitive" due to being "too close" to ground zero (without giving a distance they think would be appropriate) but admit that, legally speaking, this group has every right to build there.

In other words, "tough shit". You guys should find a nice corner of the room to go and have a pity party for yourselves

we will, thank you, a pity party for the survivors of the 9-11 victims. You sure as hell don't care shit about their feelings so you are in lock step with the muslims.



yay for tolerance.. yay


[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YQ-oaUqvAS8]YouTube - ‪Islamic Fundamentalists Destroy Ancient Statue of the Buddha‬‎[/ame]

 

[bodecea]

So.....

In summation:

The opponents of this mosque/cultural center oppose it because it is "insensitive" due to being "too close" to ground zero (without giving a distance they think would be appropriate) but admit that, legally speaking, this group has every right to build there.

In other words, "tough shit". You guys should find a nice corner of the room to go and have a pity party for yourselves

we will, thank you, a pity party for the survivors of the 9-11 victims. You sure as hell don't care shit about their feelings so you are in lock step with the muslims.



yay for tolerance.. yay


[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YQ-oaUqvAS8]YouTube - ‪Islamic Fundamentalists Destroy Ancient Statue of the Buddha‬‎[/ame]

We appreciate your link...makes it easier to see that you want to be just like those in the video.

 

[WillowTree]

so.....

In summation:

The opponents of this mosque/cultural center oppose it because it is "insensitive" due to being "too close" to ground zero (without giving a distance they think would be appropriate) but admit that, legally speaking, this group has every right to build there.

In other words, "tough shit". You guys should find a nice corner of the room to go and have a pity party for yourselves

we will, thank you, a pity party for the survivors of the 9-11 victims. You sure as hell don't care shit about their feelings so you are in lock step with the muslims.



Yay for tolerance.. Yay


[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yq-oauqvas8]youtube - ‪islamic fundamentalists destroy ancient statue of the buddha‬‎[/ame]

we appreciate your link...makes it easier to see that you want to be just like those in the video.

idiot

 

[geauxtohell]

we will, thank you, a pity party for the survivors of the 9-11 victims. You sure as hell don't care shit about their feelings so you are in lock step with the muslims.



yay for tolerance.. yay

No single person, group, or entity speaks for the "9-11 victims", so shut the **** up with that already.

On a larger scale, I am sympathetic to those who lost loved ones on 9-11. Their loss does not give them a trump card over the bill of rights.

YouTube - ‪Islamic Fundamentalists Destroy Ancient Statue of the Buddha‬‎

[/quote]

What does the Taliban's destruction of the Afghani Buddha's have to do with anything?

 

[goldcatt]

So.....

In summation:

The opponents of this mosque/cultural center oppose it because it is "insensitive" due to being "too close" to ground zero (without giving a distance they think would be appropriate) but admit that, legally speaking, this group has every right to build there.

In other words, "tough shit". You guys should find a nice corner of the room to go and have a pity party for yourselves

we will, thank you, a pity party for the survivors of the 9-11 victims. You sure as hell don't care shit about their feelings so you are in lock step with the muslims.



yay for tolerance.. yay


[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YQ-oaUqvAS8]YouTube - ‪Islamic Fundamentalists Destroy Ancient Statue of the Buddha‬‎[/ame]

Don't presume to know how all survivors of 9/11 victims think, Willow. And it's quite distasteful for anyone to wrap themselves in that mantle and milk it for cheap political points. You have no idea who or how many on this board may fit in that group, or what their feelings might be on the matter. Talk about insensitive!

 

[WillowTree]

we will, thank you, a pity party for the survivors of the 9-11 victims. You sure as hell don't care shit about their feelings so you are in lock step with the muslims.



yay for tolerance.. yay

No single person, group, or entity speaks for the "9-11 victims", so shut the **** up with that already.

On a larger scale, I am sympathetic to those who lost loved ones on 9-11. Their loss does not give them a trump card over the bill of rights.

YouTube - ‪Islamic Fundamentalists Destroy Ancient Statue of the Buddha‬‎

What does the Taliban's destruction of the Afghani Buddha's have to do with anything?[/QUOTE]

you can't make me shut the **** up. so shove your faux "bill of right up your ying yang. terrorist try to silence others.

 

[NYcarbineer]

Has ANYONE offered their opinion on what the proper distance from ground zero is supposed to be? The question I asked 3 days ago?

Or have you all decided that you don't really care about the distance?

500 yards?

1000 yards?

One mile?

Five miles?

Ten miles?

More?

If you honestly believe it's a proximity issue, then there HAS to be a distance that's acceptable to you.

Otherwise you're all full of shit as usual.

Who'll step up and name a distance?

 

[WillowTree]

So.....

In summation:

The opponents of this mosque/cultural center oppose it because it is "insensitive" due to being "too close" to ground zero (without giving a distance they think would be appropriate) but admit that, legally speaking, this group has every right to build there.

In other words, "tough shit". You guys should find a nice corner of the room to go and have a pity party for yourselves

we will, thank you, a pity party for the survivors of the 9-11 victims. You sure as hell don't care shit about their feelings so you are in lock step with the muslims.



yay for tolerance.. yay


[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YQ-oaUqvAS8]YouTube - ‪Islamic Fundamentalists Destroy Ancient Statue of the Buddha‬‎[/ame]

Don't presume to know how all survivors of 9/11 victims think, Willow. And it's quite distasteful for anyone to wrap themselves in that mantle and milk it for cheap political points. You have no idea who or how many on this board may fit in that group, or what their feelings might be on the matter. Talk about insensitive!

nope, I don't presume anything. so in conclusion you guys don't give a shit about their feelings so long as you can kiss a terrorists ass.

 

[NYcarbineer]

To not build the mosque would be a tacit concession from those Muslims that Islam is to blame for 9/11.

That would be a victory for the scapegoating bigots.

As someone was talking about today, in Germany in the thirties, anything bad got blamed on the Jews. In the 50's in the U.S., it was blame the bad on the Communists. Now, it's blame it on the Muslims.

The players just change; the story remains the same.

 

[geauxtohell]

you can't make me shut the **** up. so shove your faux "bill of right up your ying yang. terrorist try to silence others.

"Faux bill of right(s)"?

LMAO.

You either accept the establishment clause (right to worship) or you don't.

You don't get to have it both ways (i.e. I support the establishment clause as long as it doesn't involve Muslims).

Furthermore, pointing out how ******* banal your posts are is hardly "silencing you". I am not suppressing your right to free (albeit moronic) speech.

I think I see the disconnect here:

Many of you "conservatives" don't even understand the constitution that you claim to love so much.

 

[goldcatt]

Don't presume to know how all survivors of 9/11 victims think, Willow. And it's quite distasteful for anyone to wrap themselves in that mantle and milk it for cheap political points. You have no idea who or how many on this board may fit in that group, or what their feelings might be on the matter. Talk about insensitive!

nope, I don't presume anything. so in conclusion you guys don't give a shit about their feelings so long as you can kiss a terrorists ass.

You are either a comedic treasure or a stark raving idiot. It's hard to tell which.

Love the laughs though. Don't ever change.

 

[geauxtohell]

Has ANYONE offered their opinion on what the proper distance from ground zero is supposed to be? The question I asked 3 days ago?

Or have you all decided that you don't really care about the distance?

500 yards?

1000 yards?

One mile?

Five miles?

Ten miles?

More?

If you honestly believe it's a proximity issue, then there HAS to be a distance that's acceptable to you.

Otherwise you're all full of shit as usual.

Who'll step up and name a distance?

This is what I want to know.

Of course there are no answers because the answer is really "there is no acceptable distance to build a mosque, because mosques shouldn't be build in 'merica!"

 

[WillowTree]

you can't make me shut the **** up. so shove your faux "bill of right up your ying yang. terrorist try to silence others.

"Faux bill of right(s)"?

LMAO.

You either accept the establishment clause (right to worship) or you don't.

You don't get to have it both ways (i.e. I support the establishment clause as long as it doesn't involve Muslims).

Furthermore, pointing out how ******* banal your posts are is hardly "silencing you". I am not suppressing your right to free (albeit moronic) speech.

I think I see the disconnect here:

Many of you "conservatives" don't even understand the constitution that you claim to love so much.

if you knew your enemy was using your precious bill of rights and your precious constitution to destroy you what would you do? I know, I know. You would let them..and tell your fellow countryment to shut the **** up.. Precious little libturd that you are.

 

[Modbert]

Willow seems to be one of those so called Conservatives who believes in the right of worship clause, except that clause only extends to Christians. Anyone else shouldn't have such a right in her mind.