Minimum wage

[auditor0007]

Minimum wage doesn't buy shit now

Back in the early 70s I worked minimum wage at $2.10 an hour

I could afford to pay for college, buy a car and get myself started in life. You can't do shit on min wage now

Funny thing is that those who work minimum wage jobs, for the most part, work harder than most any other people. Minimum wage jobs are not easy jobs, and employers get a great return on minimum wage labor.

 

[auditor0007]

Minimum wage sets the FLOOR for hourly rates.

Child labor laws set the standards for who can work.

If you want to see what life is like without those, read the US history of the early post industrial age.

THAT is where some people want us to return.

But weren't those the good old days?

 

[Paulie]

Ok the minimum wage does not apply to all workers, tell us how much better those classes of workers are doing because of that exception.

waitresses and farm workers are getting rich?

Waitress jobs are exempt because their primary income doesn't hit the balance sheet of their employer. The interesting part about it is that there's no minimum wage for them, yet somehow, mysteriously, people continue applying for those jobs

 

[editec]

Ok the minimum wage does not apply to all workers, tell us how much better those classes of workers are doing because of that exception.

waitresses and farm workers are getting rich?

Waitress jobs are exempt because their primary income doesn't hit the balance sheet of their employer. The interesting part about it is that there's no minimum wage for them, yet somehow, mysteriously, people continue applying for those jobs

TIPS and desperation explains that.

Generally watrons and bartenders end up making more than minimum wage.

Of course people working on a facotory floor or in retail do NOT get tips, do they?

 

[expat_panama]

Minimum wage sets the FLOOR for hourly rates...

That's the fantasy. On the Planet Earth the law can't force anyone to pay more than what the labor's worth, it just stops anyone from hiring labor worth less that the minimum.

...Child labor laws...

Different thread. Focus or put a sock in it.

 

[Paulie]

Ok the minimum wage does not apply to all workers, tell us how much better those classes of workers are doing because of that exception.

waitresses and farm workers are getting rich?

Waitress jobs are exempt because their primary income doesn't hit the balance sheet of their employer. The interesting part about it is that there's no minimum wage for them, yet somehow, mysteriously, people continue applying for those jobs

TIPS and desperation explains that.

Generally watrons and bartenders end up making more than minimum wage.

Of course people working on a facotory floor or in retail do NOT get tips, do they?

How much money should a person realistically make for standing at a cash register all day hitting buttons?

I mean shit, even a lot of factory jobs don't require much skill. A lot of them are just repetitive tasks at specific stations either pressing buttons, pulling levers, placing items on conveyor belts, etc. For the most part, it is more a BORING job than a difficult one. Just because the job sucks and is boring and makes you lose your mind over time doesn't mean it should necessarily command a higher wage.

There are skilled positions in factories, and there are menial tasks that anyone with working limbs and a functional brain can accomplish. Wages should reflect this.

 

[Big Black Dog]

When you are hired for a job you are offered a specific amount of pay. If you find the pay offensive or not to your liking, you need to thank the interviewer for his time and go look somewhere else for a job that pays more to your liking. Business is in business to make money and not in business to provide you with the lifestyle that you would like to lead. Most people tend to feel that a business owes them a specific amount of money. This is not true. A job is worth only so much.

 

[Paulie]

Here's an example, editec...

I own a painting company. We paint high end homes that people pay DAMN GOOD money to make look beautiful the way they want it. Painting is not an easy task. Anyone can slap some paint onto a surface with a brush or roller, but only someone SKILLED can make it look RIGHT, with crisp straight lines, uniform finish with no missed spots or flashing, etc.

Right now I'm in need of a guy, and have gone through several over the last couple months because none of them are good enough to meet the requirements of our product. I am WILLING to pay a higher wage to someone who's good enough to fit in our crew.

Conversely, if I owned a store and needed someone to work a cash register and ring up purchases all day, I wouldn't have to offer a higher wage for better skills because just about ANYONE can run a register.

 

[Supposn]

Earning money is not a bad thing. Diversity of the worth of different people's labor is good. Minimum wage laws are bad because they outlaw hiring labor worth less than the minimum.

Expat Panama, I too am a proponent of free enterprise and self determination; but within some types of situations, equally valid concepts may be opposed to each other.

The alternative to rectifying those conflicts would be to accept what has been determined to be a generally consistent net harm in order to maintain an ideological purity. I’m opposed to knowingly increasing poverty by eliminating the federal minimum wage rate.

What we know (or believe that we know) of human behavior is applicable to many human endeavors.

Behavioral economists are concerned with situations or conditions within which the prospects of profits or losses are less effective than other motivating methods. In some such cases, (unless we modify our laws and regulations) we suffer results contrary to our society’s best interests.

Eliminating our federal minimum wage rate (rather than it be annually cost of living adjusted) would reduce purchasing powers of our aggregate wages, increase our numbers of working poor, the need for public assistance and thus be generally detrimental to both our economic and social welfare.

Respectfully, Supposn

 

[ShackledNation]

Earning money is not a bad thing. Diversity of the worth of different people's labor is good. Minimum wage laws are bad because they outlaw hiring labor worth less than the minimum.

Expat Panama, I too am a proponent of free enterprise and self determination; but within some types of situations, equally valid concepts may be opposed to each other.

The alternative to rectifying those conflicts would be to accept what has been determined to be a generally consistent net harm in order to maintain an ideological purity. I’m opposed to knowingly increasing poverty by eliminating the federal minimum wage rate.

What we know (or believe that we know) of human behavior is applicable to many human endeavors.

Behavioral economists are concerned with situations or conditions within which the prospects of profits or losses are less effective than other motivating methods. In some such cases, (unless we modify our laws and regulations) we suffer results contrary to our society’s best interests.

Eliminating our federal minimum wage rate (rather than it be annually cost of living adjusted) would reduce purchasing powers of our aggregate wages, increase our numbers of working poor, the need for public assistance and thus be generally detrimental to both our economic and social welfare.

Respectfully, Supposn

Your assumption that minimum wage decreases poverty is simply false. In fact, after minimum wage was passed, African Americans have actually become more impoverished. What you don't seem to realize is that workers making higher wages aren't all of a sudden going to have lower wages. What will happen is that people making zero wages (on welfare) will be able to find work they would not have been able to find before.

All proponents of minimum wage operate on the assumption that minimum wage reduces poverty, but such an assumption has been proven historically, empirically, and logically false.

1. A higher minimum wage causes employers to cut back on both the number of workers they hire and their employees' working hours.

2. The beneficiaries of higher minimum wages are unlikely to be poor because most minimum-wage earners are not poor.

3. Few individuals living in poverty work at minimum-wage jobs or any job.

One last point: Why not raise minimum wage to $50 an hour? Tell me why that is a bad idea. Would that not greatly reduce poverty? That question must be answered if you believe minimum wage has a positive effect.

 

[dblack]

I love the deluded logic behind these sorts of things. The individual mandate is the same sort of crap. People really think we can make our problems go away by just making them illegal.

Problem: Lots of people don't have health insurance because it's too expensive.

Solution: Make it illegal for them to not have insurance.


Problem: Lots of people can't find a job that pays enough for them have a decent standard of living.

Solution: Make it illegal for them to work at jobs that pay less than that.

 

[ShackledNation]

I love the deluded logic behind these sorts of things. The individual mandate is the same sort of crap. People really think we can make our problems go away by just making them illegal.

Problem: Lots of people don't have health insurance because it's too expensive.

Solution: Make it illegal for them to not have insurance.


Problem: Lots of people can't find a job that pays enough for them have a decent standard of living.

Solution: Make it illegal for them to work at jobs that pay less than that.

It really is quite the mythology, isn't it?

 

[expat_panama]

...Eliminating our federal minimum wage rate (rather than it be annually cost of living adjusted) would reduce purchasing powers of our aggregate wages, increase our numbers of working poor...

Please share with us any factual basis you've got to back that statement. If we're just talking hypotheticals then we could argue that eliminating federal minimum laws would encourage local/state minimum wage laws and spur a nationwide economic efficiency improving general purchasing power.

 

[ShackledNation]

What no proponent of minimum wage will ever be able to explain is this:

If minimum wage is necessary to ensure people get decent wages, why do the vast majority of jobs pay above minimum wage? In 2010, only 6% of people worked for wages at or below the minimum wage. Even McDonald's pays above minimum wage. That should disprove the idea of minimum wage instantly.

Tables 1 - 10; Characteristics of Minimum Wage Workers: 2010

 

[percysunshine]

What no proponent of minimum wage will ever be able to explain is this:

If minimum wage is necessary to ensure people get decent wages, why do the vast majority of jobs pay above minimum wage? In 2010, only 6% of people worked for wages at or below the minimum wage. Even McDonald's pays above minimum wage. That should disprove the idea of minimum wage instantly.

Tables 1 - 10; Characteristics of Minimum Wage Workers: 2010

The minimum wage is designed to insure that the children of rich politicians will have something to do in the summer besides annoy the family pets.

 

[midcan5]

Personally minimum wage is just a sign that a society believes in its citizens enough that even the bottom rungers are treated fair. No modern society can function well on a minimum wage population unless you have lots of people like China and India. When I started working at the largest corporation on earth, it was the unions that made a difference, we had contracts and rules and boundaries and while I eventually moved up the food chain, the power of the union mattered more than any federal mandated limit because power was with the employees and not the corporation. That has changed and today we have a obsequious population that bow before big money and argue hell is nice. Those in my economic situation and age hold tight to the materialistic greed that is American today. America lost her soul sometime in eighties, where'd it go. Oh, and workers lost their balls but Wisconsin show a bit of them. Who knows maybe we'll cycle back to sense.

Minimum wage: The Effect of Minimum Wage Increases on Retail and Small Business Employment | EPI Study


"Something is profoundly wrong with the way we live today. For thirty years we have made a virtue out of the pursuit of material self-interest: indeed, this very pursuit now constitutes whatever remains of our sense of collective purpose. We know what things cost but have no idea what they are worth. We no longer ask of a judicial ruling or a legislative act: is it good? Is it fair? Is it just? Is it right? Will it help bring about a better society or a better world? Those used to be the political questions, even if they invited no easy answers. We must learn once again to pose them." Tony Judt 'Ill Fares the Land'

 

[ShackledNation]

Personally minimum wage is just a sign that a society believes in its citizens enough that even the bottom rungers are treated fair. No modern society can function well on a minimum wage population unless you have lots of people like China and India. When I started working at the largest corporation on earth, it was the unions that made a difference, we had contracts and rules and boundaries and while I eventually moved up the food chain, the power of the union mattered more than any federal mandated limit because power was with the employees and not the corporation. That has changed and today we have a obsequious population that bow before big money and argue hell is nice. Those in my economic situation and age hold tight to the materialistic greed that is American today. America lost her soul sometime in eighties, where'd it go. Oh, and workers lost their balls but Wisconsin show a bit of them. Who knows maybe we'll cycle back to sense.

Minimum wage: The Effect of Minimum Wage Increases on Retail and Small Business Employment | EPI Study


"Something is profoundly wrong with the way we live today. For thirty years we have made a virtue out of the pursuit of material self-interest: indeed, this very pursuit now constitutes whatever remains of our sense of collective purpose. We know what things cost but have no idea what they are worth. We no longer ask of a judicial ruling or a legislative act: is it good? Is it fair? Is it just? Is it right? Will it help bring about a better society or a better world? Those used to be the political questions, even if they invited no easy answers. We must learn once again to pose them." Tony Judt 'Ill Fares the Land'

Minimum wage does not cause people to be treated fairly. It makes it illegal for people with skills below the minimum wage level to find a job. 94% of all jobs pay above the minimum wage. Ending minimum wage will not suddenly make these jobs minimum wage jobs. It will add more jobs, allowing people on welfare to work for money, gain experience, and pull themselves out of poverty. Black teenagers have higher unemployment rates because of minimum wage. Minimum wage functions to keep the poor poor by barring them from entering the workplace. In South Africa, racist unions established minimum wage because it would prevent unskilled black workers from getting a job.

 

[expat_panama]

...minimum wage is just a sign that a society believes in its citizens enough that even the bottom rungers are treated fair...

That's the justification and it's a scam. In real life the law does not outlaw 'unfairness' to bottom rungers, it outlaws hiring them.

 

[Supposn]

Shackled Nation, elimination of federal minimum wage rates will not increase the numbers of higher and middle income jobs.

The proportional extent of minimum rate’s affect is inversely related to the wages’ amounts. Although all labor compensation is to some extent affected by minimum wage rates, due to elimination of the federal minimum rate, families of higher wage earners would proportionally suffer lesser losses of purchasing powers than those of middle income earning families.

Elimination of federal minimum wage rates will greatly increase the numbers of the lowest paying jobs. Almost all of those additional jobs’ do not now exist because their tasks do not justify minimum wage rates.

The wage for all lower wage job tasks will suffer extremely great losses of purchasing powers. The vast majority of these lower income jobs will provide extremely less purchasing power than our current federal minimum rates. Lower income jobs will be ever less able to provide sustenance.
Elimination of the federal minimum wage rate will cause wider spread poverty throughout our population.

Respectfully, Supposn

 

[ShackledNation]

Shackled Nation, elimination of federal minimum wage rates will not increase the numbers of higher and middle income jobs.

I didn't say it would. Nor will it decrease them. It will simply make available lower paying jobs so more people can work rather than be unemployed. Minimum wage makes low-paid jobs illegal. It is foolish to think making jobs illegal will create more jobs.

The proportional extent of minimum rate’s affect is inversely related to the wages’ amounts.

You have said that before and it makes no sense whatsoever.

Although all labor compensation is to some extent affected by minimum wage rates, due to elimination of the federal minimum rate, families of higher wage earners would proportionally suffer lesser losses of purchasing powers than those of middle income earning families.

How does providing jobs for once unemployed people result in losses for people who are already employed? As I said, 94% of jobs pay above minimum wage. Wages will not fall if minimum wage is abolished. What change will occur is new jobs that are lower paying will be added.

Elimination of federal minimum wage rates will greatly increase the numbers of the lowest paying jobs. Almost all of those additional jobs’ do not now exist because their tasks do not justify minimum wage rates.

It is up to employers and workers to determine via the price system if their tasks justify the wages. If a worker offers a wage that nobody will take, he will either have to raise the wage or not offer the job. Banning such low wage jobs prevents people willing to accept these jobs from getting them. These additional jobs, as you say, do not exist. Without minimum wage, they will exist, and people will take them rather than be unemployed and have no income at all.

The wage for all lower wage job tasks will suffer extremely great losses of purchasing powers. The vast majority of these lower income jobs will provide extremely less purchasing power than our current federal minimum rates. Lower income jobs will be ever less able to provide sustenance.

The lower income jobs don't currently exist, so there is no purchasing power at all. You are wrongly assuming that wages across the board will fall. That is simply false.

Elimination of the federal minimum wage rate will cause wider spread poverty throughout our population.
Respectfully, Supposn

You fail to explain how increasing the number of jobs in an economy will cause widespread poverty. Current workers now have to pay for the welfare of those made unemployed because of minimum wage. You have a class of unskilled workers that cannot find employment, have no jobs, and cannot get their foot in the door.