danielpalos
Diamond Member
- Banned
- #21
Criminals of the People get infringed all the time.
Meaning of well regulated, meaning of shall, meaning of infringe
- Thread starter miketx
- Start date
Stryder50
Platinum Member
Where does his SECTION 24 come from?Well regulated must be prescribed by our federal Congress for the militia of the United States.What did it mean to be well regulated? One of the biggest challenges in interpreting a centuries-old document is that the meanings of words change or diverge. "Well-regulated in the 18th century tended to be something like well-organized, well-armed, well-disciplined," says Rakove. "It didn't mean 'regulation' in the sense that we use it now, in that it's not about the regulatory state. There's been nuance there. It means the militia was in an effective shape to fight." In other words, it didn't mean the state was controlling the militia in a certain way, but rather that the militia was prepared to do its duty.
In a word? Standardized.
If one’s State’s Militia was to fight along side the militia of another, it is helpful if all parties involved understand and have the same chain of command, and same types of drill, orders and nomenclature. And where possible, as similar types of equipment as possible, to mitigate the issues of logistics.
It does not now, nor ever has meant, to “regulate” as in “a rule or mechanism that limits, steers, or otherwise controls” the militia.
What does “well regulated” in the Second Amendment mean?
Answer (1 of 19): In order to be “well regulated,” it must be functional when called to active duty. Congress is empowered in the actual militia clauses to determine the training and discipline of the militia, and to provide for its arming. With a few limits, for instance, it could impose UCMJ o...www.quora.com
Shall:
What does the word shall mean?
What does shall mean legally?
when drafting a legal document, the term shall is used to say that something must be done, as opposed to the term may which simply means that something is allowed (ie that it can be done, but does not have to be done)
Definition of shall
auxiliary verb
1a—used to express what is inevitable or seems likely to happen in the future, we shall have to be ready, we shall see
b—used to express simple futurity, when shall we expect you
2—used to express determination. they shall not pass
3a—used to express a command or exhortation, you shall go
a: will have to : MUST
b: will be able to : CAN
Infringe:
infringe
verb
in·fringe | \ in-ˈfrinj \
infringed; infringing
Definition of infringe
transitive verb
1: to encroach upon in a way that violates law or the rights of another, infringe a patent
intransitive verb
: ENCROACH —used with on or upon infringe on our rights
SHALL NOT BE INFRINGED
And,
SECTION 24 RIGHT TO BEAR ARMS. The right of the individual citizen to bear arms in defense of himself, or the state, shall not be impaired, but nothing in this section shall be construed as authorizing individuals or corporations to organize, maintain or employ an armed body of men.
No such thing in any copy of the U.S. Constitution that I've seen.
Someone forgot to tell Teddy about this Section 24*;
...
* The most famous of all the units fighting in Cuba, the "Rough Riders" was the name given to the First U.S. Volunteer Cavalry under the leadership of Theodore Roosevelt. ...
...
Research Guides: World of 1898: International Perspectives on the Spanish American War: Introduction
This presentation provides resources and documents about the Spanish-American War, the period before the war, and some of the fascinating people who participated in the fighting or commented about it.
www.loc.gov
...A last-minute gift from a wealthy donor were a pair of modern tripod mounted, gas-operated M1895 Colt–Browning machine guns in 7mm Mauser caliber.
...
Rough Riders - Wikipedia
Last edited:
Stryder50
Platinum Member
From the dumbest POTUS ever, elected by the dumbest half of our nation to date (assuming all was legally done) we now get this gem;
...
“And I might add: The Second Amendment, from the day it was passed, limited the type of people who could own a gun and what type of weapon you could own. You couldn’t buy a cannon.”
...
The president offered this aside as he made a litany of his regular points about the need for background checks and what he says was the effectiveness of bans on assault weapons and large-capacity magazines that expired.
Parenthetical asides from a prepared text often trip up presidents, especially Biden. In this case, he repeated a claim — that Americans were prohibited from owning cannons — that has already been fact-checked as false when he made it during the presidential campaign.
The meaning of the Second Amendment — “A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed” — has long been debated. But experts said Biden especially mischaracterized it.
“Everything in that statement is wrong,” said David Kopel, the research director and Second Amendment project director at the Independence Institute. After 1791, “there were no federal laws about the type of gun you could own, and no states limited the kind of gun you could own.” Not until the early 1800s were there any efforts to pass restrictions on carrying concealed weapons, he said.
...
Interestingly, during the campaign, Biden had asserted that the cannon restrictions happened during the Revolutionary War. “From the very beginning you weren’t allowed to have certain weapons,” Biden told Wired magazine in May 2020. “You weren’t allowed to own a cannon during the Revolutionary War as an individual.”
Historians at the time told PolitiFact there was no evidence this was the case. The Biden campaign could not point to any laws but seemed to suggest Biden’s point was more metaphorical than grounded in reality.
Now Biden has moved the cannon metaphor to some 20 years after the Revolutionary War — and it’s still wrong.
...
In fact, you do not have to look far in the Constitution to see that private individuals could own cannons. Article 1, Section 8, Clause 11 gives Congress the power to declare war. But there is another element of that clause that might seem strange to modern ears — Congress also had the power to “grant Letters of Marque and Reprisal.”
What’s that? These were special waivers that allowed private individuals to act as pirates on behalf of the United States against countries engaged in war with it. The “letter of marque” allowed a warship to cross into another country’s territory to take a ship, while a “letter of reprisal” gave authorization to bring the ship back to the home port of the capturer.
Individuals who were given these waivers and owned warships obviously also obtained cannons for use in battle.
The White House did not provide an explanation of Biden’s comment.
...
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Of course if Trump had made a statement like this, the Left and MSM would be shouting to the rafts it's another example of Trump lying ...
...
Biden’s false claim that the 2nd Amendment bans cannon ownership
...“And I might add: The Second Amendment, from the day it was passed, limited the type of people who could own a gun and what type of weapon you could own. You couldn’t buy a cannon.”
...
The president offered this aside as he made a litany of his regular points about the need for background checks and what he says was the effectiveness of bans on assault weapons and large-capacity magazines that expired.
Parenthetical asides from a prepared text often trip up presidents, especially Biden. In this case, he repeated a claim — that Americans were prohibited from owning cannons — that has already been fact-checked as false when he made it during the presidential campaign.
The Facts
The cannon element is what mostly interests us here, but we should also address Biden’s framing about the Second Amendment, which was part of the Bill of Rights adopted in 1791.The meaning of the Second Amendment — “A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed” — has long been debated. But experts said Biden especially mischaracterized it.
“Everything in that statement is wrong,” said David Kopel, the research director and Second Amendment project director at the Independence Institute. After 1791, “there were no federal laws about the type of gun you could own, and no states limited the kind of gun you could own.” Not until the early 1800s were there any efforts to pass restrictions on carrying concealed weapons, he said.
...
Interestingly, during the campaign, Biden had asserted that the cannon restrictions happened during the Revolutionary War. “From the very beginning you weren’t allowed to have certain weapons,” Biden told Wired magazine in May 2020. “You weren’t allowed to own a cannon during the Revolutionary War as an individual.”
Historians at the time told PolitiFact there was no evidence this was the case. The Biden campaign could not point to any laws but seemed to suggest Biden’s point was more metaphorical than grounded in reality.
Now Biden has moved the cannon metaphor to some 20 years after the Revolutionary War — and it’s still wrong.
...
In fact, you do not have to look far in the Constitution to see that private individuals could own cannons. Article 1, Section 8, Clause 11 gives Congress the power to declare war. But there is another element of that clause that might seem strange to modern ears — Congress also had the power to “grant Letters of Marque and Reprisal.”
What’s that? These were special waivers that allowed private individuals to act as pirates on behalf of the United States against countries engaged in war with it. The “letter of marque” allowed a warship to cross into another country’s territory to take a ship, while a “letter of reprisal” gave authorization to bring the ship back to the home port of the capturer.
Individuals who were given these waivers and owned warships obviously also obtained cannons for use in battle.
The White House did not provide an explanation of Biden’s comment.
...
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Of course if Trump had made a statement like this, the Left and MSM would be shouting to the rafts it's another example of Trump lying ...
danielpalos
Diamond Member
- Banned
- #24
To provide for organizing, arming, and disciplining, the Militia, and for governing such Part of them as may be employed in the Service of the United States, reserving to the States respectively, the Appointment of the Officers, and the Authority of training the Militia according to the discipline prescribed by Congress;Where does his SECTION 24 come from?Well regulated must be prescribed by our federal Congress for the militia of the United States.What did it mean to be well regulated? One of the biggest challenges in interpreting a centuries-old document is that the meanings of words change or diverge. "Well-regulated in the 18th century tended to be something like well-organized, well-armed, well-disciplined," says Rakove. "It didn't mean 'regulation' in the sense that we use it now, in that it's not about the regulatory state. There's been nuance there. It means the militia was in an effective shape to fight." In other words, it didn't mean the state was controlling the militia in a certain way, but rather that the militia was prepared to do its duty.
In a word? Standardized.
If one’s State’s Militia was to fight along side the militia of another, it is helpful if all parties involved understand and have the same chain of command, and same types of drill, orders and nomenclature. And where possible, as similar types of equipment as possible, to mitigate the issues of logistics.
It does not now, nor ever has meant, to “regulate” as in “a rule or mechanism that limits, steers, or otherwise controls” the militia.
What does “well regulated” in the Second Amendment mean?
Answer (1 of 19): In order to be “well regulated,” it must be functional when called to active duty. Congress is empowered in the actual militia clauses to determine the training and discipline of the militia, and to provide for its arming. With a few limits, for instance, it could impose UCMJ o...
Shall:
What does the word shall mean?
What does shall mean legally?
when drafting a legal document, the term shall is used to say that something must be done, as opposed to the term may which simply means that something is allowed (ie that it can be done, but does not have to be done)
Definition of shall
auxiliary verb
1a—used to express what is inevitable or seems likely to happen in the future, we shall have to be ready, we shall see
b—used to express simple futurity, when shall we expect you
2—used to express determination. they shall not pass
3a—used to express a command or exhortation, you shall go
a: will have to : MUST
b: will be able to : CAN
Infringe:
infringe
verb
in·fringe | \ in-ˈfrinj \
infringed; infringing
Definition of infringe
transitive verb
1: to encroach upon in a way that violates law or the rights of another, infringe a patent
intransitive verb
: ENCROACH —used with on or upon infringe on our rights
SHALL NOT BE INFRINGED
And,
SECTION 24 RIGHT TO BEAR ARMS. The right of the individual citizen to bear arms in defense of himself, or the state, shall not be impaired, but nothing in this section shall be construed as authorizing individuals or corporations to organize, maintain or employ an armed body of men.
No such thing in any copy of the U.S. Constitution that I've seen.
Someone forgot to tell Teddy about this Section 24*;
...
* The most famous of all the units fighting in Cuba, the "Rough Riders" was the name given to the First U.S. Volunteer Cavalry under the leadership of Theodore Roosevelt. ...
...
Also, some last minute civilian supplied weaponry;Research Guides: World of 1898: International Perspectives on the Spanish American War: Introduction
This presentation provides resources and documents about the Spanish-American War, the period before the war, and some of the fascinating people who participated in the fighting or commented about it.
...A last-minute gift from a wealthy donor were a pair of modern tripod mounted, gas-operated M1895 Colt–Browning machine guns in 7mm Mauser caliber.
...
Rough Riders - Wikipedia
en.wikipedia.org
Article 2, Section 26. The right of the individual citizen to bear arms in defense of himself or the State shall not be impaired, but nothing in this section shall be construed as authorizing individuals or corporations to organize, maintain, or employ an armed body of men. (Arizona State Constitution)
whitehall
Diamond Member
Despite CNN's efforts to parse words and phrases in the 2nd Amendment it's a moot point since the Supreme Court upheld the Amendment in numerous decisions.
Stryder50
Platinum Member
You are halfway there on being a responsible poster here.To provide for organizing, arming, and disciplining, the Militia, and for governing such Part of them as may be employed in the Service of the United States, reserving to the States respectively, the Appointment of the Officers, and the Authority of training the Militia according to the discipline prescribed by Congress;Where does his SECTION 24 come from?Well regulated must be prescribed by our federal Congress for the militia of the United States.What did it mean to be well regulated? One of the biggest challenges in interpreting a centuries-old document is that the meanings of words change or diverge. "Well-regulated in the 18th century tended to be something like well-organized, well-armed, well-disciplined," says Rakove. "It didn't mean 'regulation' in the sense that we use it now, in that it's not about the regulatory state. There's been nuance there. It means the militia was in an effective shape to fight." In other words, it didn't mean the state was controlling the militia in a certain way, but rather that the militia was prepared to do its duty.
In a word? Standardized.
If one’s State’s Militia was to fight along side the militia of another, it is helpful if all parties involved understand and have the same chain of command, and same types of drill, orders and nomenclature. And where possible, as similar types of equipment as possible, to mitigate the issues of logistics.
It does not now, nor ever has meant, to “regulate” as in “a rule or mechanism that limits, steers, or otherwise controls” the militia.
What does “well regulated” in the Second Amendment mean?
Answer (1 of 19): In order to be “well regulated,” it must be functional when called to active duty. Congress is empowered in the actual militia clauses to determine the training and discipline of the militia, and to provide for its arming. With a few limits, for instance, it could impose UCMJ o...
Shall:
What does the word shall mean?
What does shall mean legally?
when drafting a legal document, the term shall is used to say that something must be done, as opposed to the term may which simply means that something is allowed (ie that it can be done, but does not have to be done)
Definition of shall
auxiliary verb
1a—used to express what is inevitable or seems likely to happen in the future, we shall have to be ready, we shall see
b—used to express simple futurity, when shall we expect you
2—used to express determination. they shall not pass
3a—used to express a command or exhortation, you shall go
a: will have to : MUST
b: will be able to : CAN
Infringe:
infringe
verb
in·fringe | \ in-ˈfrinj \
infringed; infringing
Definition of infringe
transitive verb
1: to encroach upon in a way that violates law or the rights of another, infringe a patent
intransitive verb
: ENCROACH —used with on or upon infringe on our rights
SHALL NOT BE INFRINGED
And,
SECTION 24 RIGHT TO BEAR ARMS. The right of the individual citizen to bear arms in defense of himself, or the state, shall not be impaired, but nothing in this section shall be construed as authorizing individuals or corporations to organize, maintain or employ an armed body of men.
No such thing in any copy of the U.S. Constitution that I've seen.
Someone forgot to tell Teddy about this Section 24*;
...
* The most famous of all the units fighting in Cuba, the "Rough Riders" was the name given to the First U.S. Volunteer Cavalry under the leadership of Theodore Roosevelt. ...
...
Also, some last minute civilian supplied weaponry;Research Guides: World of 1898: International Perspectives on the Spanish American War: Introduction
This presentation provides resources and documents about the Spanish-American War, the period before the war, and some of the fascinating people who participated in the fighting or commented about it.
...A last-minute gift from a wealthy donor were a pair of modern tripod mounted, gas-operated M1895 Colt–Browning machine guns in 7mm Mauser caliber.
...
Rough Riders - Wikipedia
Article 2, Section 26. The right of the individual citizen to bear arms in defense of himself or the State shall not be impaired, but nothing in this section shall be construed as authorizing individuals or corporations to organize, maintain, or employ an armed body of men. (Arizona State Constitution)
Your first paragraph remains undocumented, un-cited, and for all we know a fabrication of your imagination.
Your second paragraph can be found here;
View Document
www.azleg.gov
Arizona State Constitution
www.azleg.gov
Arizona State Constitution
www.azleg.gov
For someone who's been around for nearly six years you still don't play the game very well, but then Leftists usually aren't up to speed on details, accuracy, accountability, or responsibility.
(For example, you originally cited Section 24, not Section 26 ...
)danielpalos
Diamond Member
- Banned
- #27
lol. There is no appeal to ignorance of our federal Constitution. You could have easily done a search of the terms.You are halfway there on being a responsible poster here.To provide for organizing, arming, and disciplining, the Militia, and for governing such Part of them as may be employed in the Service of the United States, reserving to the States respectively, the Appointment of the Officers, and the Authority of training the Militia according to the discipline prescribed by Congress;Where does his SECTION 24 come from?Well regulated must be prescribed by our federal Congress for the militia of the United States.What did it mean to be well regulated? One of the biggest challenges in interpreting a centuries-old document is that the meanings of words change or diverge. "Well-regulated in the 18th century tended to be something like well-organized, well-armed, well-disciplined," says Rakove. "It didn't mean 'regulation' in the sense that we use it now, in that it's not about the regulatory state. There's been nuance there. It means the militia was in an effective shape to fight." In other words, it didn't mean the state was controlling the militia in a certain way, but rather that the militia was prepared to do its duty.
In a word? Standardized.
If one’s State’s Militia was to fight along side the militia of another, it is helpful if all parties involved understand and have the same chain of command, and same types of drill, orders and nomenclature. And where possible, as similar types of equipment as possible, to mitigate the issues of logistics.
It does not now, nor ever has meant, to “regulate” as in “a rule or mechanism that limits, steers, or otherwise controls” the militia.
What does “well regulated” in the Second Amendment mean?
Answer (1 of 19): In order to be “well regulated,” it must be functional when called to active duty. Congress is empowered in the actual militia clauses to determine the training and discipline of the militia, and to provide for its arming. With a few limits, for instance, it could impose UCMJ o...
Shall:
What does the word shall mean?
What does shall mean legally?
when drafting a legal document, the term shall is used to say that something must be done, as opposed to the term may which simply means that something is allowed (ie that it can be done, but does not have to be done)
Definition of shall
auxiliary verb
1a—used to express what is inevitable or seems likely to happen in the future, we shall have to be ready, we shall see
b—used to express simple futurity, when shall we expect you
2—used to express determination. they shall not pass
3a—used to express a command or exhortation, you shall go
a: will have to : MUST
b: will be able to : CAN
Infringe:
infringe
verb
in·fringe | \ in-ˈfrinj \
infringed; infringing
Definition of infringe
transitive verb
1: to encroach upon in a way that violates law or the rights of another, infringe a patent
intransitive verb
: ENCROACH —used with on or upon infringe on our rights
SHALL NOT BE INFRINGED
And,
SECTION 24 RIGHT TO BEAR ARMS. The right of the individual citizen to bear arms in defense of himself, or the state, shall not be impaired, but nothing in this section shall be construed as authorizing individuals or corporations to organize, maintain or employ an armed body of men.
No such thing in any copy of the U.S. Constitution that I've seen.
Someone forgot to tell Teddy about this Section 24*;
...
* The most famous of all the units fighting in Cuba, the "Rough Riders" was the name given to the First U.S. Volunteer Cavalry under the leadership of Theodore Roosevelt. ...
...
Also, some last minute civilian supplied weaponry;Research Guides: World of 1898: International Perspectives on the Spanish American War: Introduction
This presentation provides resources and documents about the Spanish-American War, the period before the war, and some of the fascinating people who participated in the fighting or commented about it.
...A last-minute gift from a wealthy donor were a pair of modern tripod mounted, gas-operated M1895 Colt–Browning machine guns in 7mm Mauser caliber.
...
Rough Riders - Wikipedia
Article 2, Section 26. The right of the individual citizen to bear arms in defense of himself or the State shall not be impaired, but nothing in this section shall be construed as authorizing individuals or corporations to organize, maintain, or employ an armed body of men. (Arizona State Constitution)
Your first paragraph remains undocumented, un-cited, and for all we know a fabrication of your imagination.
Your second paragraph can be found here;
Within the larger context of here;View Document
Within the full content of the Arizona State Constitution;Arizona State Constitution
Arizona State Constitution
For someone who's been around for nearly six years you still don't play the game very well, but then Leftists usually aren't up to speed on details, accuracy, accountability, or responsibility.
(For example, you originally cited Section 24, not Section 26 ...
whitehall
Diamond Member
A former KKK member appointed to the Supreme Court by FDR used a letter by Jefferson around 1948 to create the fake "separation of Church/State we live with today. A later Court found a "right to privacy" that did not appear in the Constitution to authorize the murder of the unborn. My point is that (mostly) lefties argue about the wording of the 2nd Amendment even though it is well established but they don't seem concerned about decisions that are taken out of thin air.
danielpalos
Diamond Member
- Banned
- #29
My point is right-wingers don't understand Constitutional law and appeal to ignorance all the time.
All people are by nature free and independent and have inalienable rights. Among these are enjoying and defending life and liberty, acquiring, possessing, and protecting property, and pursuing and obtaining safety, happiness, and privacy. (California State Constitution)
Due process applies in federal venues.
whitehall
Diamond Member
Due process? Is the left going to lecture us on due process when FDR issued an executive order authorizing the arrest of American citizens without due process? You almost gotta laugh that the former KKK member he appointed to the Court validated the most notorious violation of Constitutional law in history. I worry about the future of the 2nd Amendment because we have a left wing administration, a timid Court and a fawning media that will sustain any violation of Constitutional law as long as democrats are in power.
danielpalos
Diamond Member
- Banned
- #31
Yes. Segregation was unConstitutional but still happening back then.
whitehall
Diamond Member
Due process wasn't about segregation. FDR is a democrat icon, perhaps the greatest democrat icon of the 20th century, his image is on a freaking U.S. coin but his executive order #9066 authorized the arrest of American citizens and denied them due process. If the media could create a hero out of a 20th century tyrant who violated half a dozen Amendments to the Constitution, what are they capable of in the 21st century when so many freedoms are at stake?
danielpalos
Diamond Member
- Banned
- #33
A world war had no impact whatsoever?
And, well regulated must be prescribed by our federal Congress for the militia of the United States.
woodwork201
Diamond Member
- Mar 2, 2021
- 4,631
- 2,848
- 1,938
I don't live in Arizona or California. What you don't understand is that those constitutions don't apply outside of their states. The even bigger issue that you fail to understand is that the US Constitution trumps the state constitutions:
This Constitution, and the Laws of the United States which shall be made in Pursuance thereof; and all Treaties made, or which shall be made, under the Authority of the United States, shall be the supreme Law of the Land; and the Judges in every State shall be bound thereby, any Thing in the Constitution or Laws of any State to the Contrary notwithstanding.
danielpalos
Diamond Member
- Banned
- #35
What You fail to understand is that y'all only appeal to ignorance of the (Constitutional) law. All State Constitutions say something similar; and:
The Citizens of each State shall be entitled to all Privileges and Immunities of Citizens in the several States.
woodwork201
Diamond Member
- Mar 2, 2021
- 4,631
- 2,848
- 1,938
And you interpret that to mean that the rules or laws of the other states apply to all the states? The Privileges and Immunities clause of the 14th Amendment is useless and redundant. The US Constitution already applied. It was intended to remove any doubt about the applicability of the Constitution but it didn't actually do anything.
danielpalos
Diamond Member
- Banned
- #37
What State are you from? There is no appeal to ignorance of (the Constitutional) law.
Doc7505
Diamond Member
- Feb 16, 2016
- 19,639
- 35,715
- 2,430
Bob Blaylock
Diamond Member
- Banned
- #39
The word “infringe” is related to the word “fringe”, referring to the barest edge of a thing, or in more common modern usage, to a form of decoration commonly applied to the edge of something.
As used in the Second Amendment, its meaning is stronger than most people realize. It means that government is forbidden from even touching the barest edge of the right which this Amendment affirms.
Abatis
Platinum Member
Which is why we should always remain tethered to foundational principles.
For "interpretation" of the 2nd Amendment, the most important principle is one that the Supreme Court has reaffirmed multiple times for nearly a century and a half . . . That is, the right to keep and bear arms is not granted by the 2nd Amendment thus the right in no manner depends on the Constitution for its existence.
That means examining words upon which the right does not depend, is useless and dangerous.
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