Zone1 Mark of the Beast?

[buttercup]

Immediately after the Tribulation, Jesus sets up His Millennial reign. He has touched down on the earth and remains here. What would be the sense in taking us out of the earth to meet Him in the sky when He is already down here? In the rapture, we go to Him, He doesn't come to earth to gather us. We are the saints that come with Him when he appears on earth during the tribulation at the Mt. of Olives to prevent the destruction of all life here on earth.
ek. It means out of. He takes us out of the misery that is coming. What sense would it make for Him to take us out after the fact? Where does He take us to after the Tribulation, because He is here at that point. At the rapture He is in the clouds, not on earth.

There is a debate as to when the rapture takes place. Pre, mid or post trib. Since only the Father knows, all we can do is speculate.

There's no doubt in my mind that pre-trib is false. I believe it's a deception of the enemy so that Christians will not be prepared for all that is to come.

But this is a topic that should go on a thread of its own. And TBH I just don't have the time right now to debate or discuss this topic, beyond stating that the tribulation and God's wrath are two entirely different events.*

In fact, I think that's where most of the confusion comes from, because pre-tribbers conflate the two.

Did you watch that short video? As he said, the Tribulation is what the world does to us. God's wrath is what God does to the world. THAT is what He is protecting us from, not the tribulation... which we will have to go through.

* I've been trying to finish up a video about transhumanism. It's just a short video, but I put it on the shelf for a long time and now I'm back to trying to get it done. So like I said, I was just popping in here.

 

[1srelluc]

The Hindus use that red stuff. The younger guys have it in the palm of their hand instead of the forehead.

Huh, I wondered what happened to the dot on the guys other than their priests.....Thought it was a women thing.

 

[The Irish Ram]

Immediately after the Tribulation, Jesus sets up His Millennial reign. He has touched down on the earth and remains here. What would be the sense in taking us out of the earth to meet Him in the sky when He is already down here? In the rapture, we go to Him, He doesn't come to earth to gather us. We are the saints that come back with Him when he appears on earth during the tribulation at the Mt. of Olives to prevent the destruction of all life here on earth.
ek. It means out of. He takes us out of the misery that is coming. What sense would it make for Him to take us out after the fact? Where does He take us to after the Tribulation, because He is here at that point. At the rapture He is in the clouds, not on earth.

There is a debate as to when the rapture takes place. Pre, mid or post trib. Since only the Father knows, all we can do is speculate.

​

If post trib, then My question would be to Luke:

Luke 17: 34 I tell you, on that night two people will be in one bed; one will be taken and the other left. If the rapture is post trib, then where is one of the sleeping persons taken to? And does the other stay here in bed, because post trib means Jesus is located in Jerusalem at that time, not in the clouds, not in Heaven. Here on earth.
The Bible says that person was taken ek (out of) the earth to meet Jesus in the sky, not in Jerusalem.

 

[The Irish Ram]

I haven't watched the video yet, Buttercup. But, I will when I return.

 

[John Edgar Slow Horses]

So is Christianity:
Cult ~ a group of people who share extreme beliefs and practices, often led by a charismatic figure.

Yep, Biblical literalism is a clear contender in weird evangelical Christianity.

 

[Woodznutz]

I hated Blue Sunday. Nothing to do in town. But was not unconstitutional.

The Supreme Court has acknowledged the religious origins of blue laws but has upheld them as constitutional when supported by secular justifications, such as a uniform day of rest.
The Court has cited secular bases like securing a day of rest for workers and families, contributing to societal stability, and guaranteeing the free exercise of religion.
The Blue laws, also known as Sunday closing laws or Sabbath laws, emerged in England and colonial America to protect the Christian Sabbath.

(Continuing)

" Meanwhile, various state courts have struck down the laws as either unenforceable or in violation of their states' constitutions."

 

[buttercup]

My question is to Luke then:
Luke 17: 34 I tell you, on that night two people will be in one bed; one will be taken and the other left. If the rapture is post trib, then where is one of the sleeping persons taken to? And does the other stay here in bed, because post trib means Jesus is located in Jerusalem at that time, not in the clouds, not in Heaven. Here on earth.
The Bible says that person was taken ek (out of) to meet Jesus in the sky, not in Jerusalem.

I don't believe that contradicts other verses, or the post-trib rapture.

The rapture happens the same time as the second coming of Christ.

In fact... the idea of a pre-trib rapture pretty much means that there is a THIRD coming of Christ, not second, if He comes to take believers away and then comes again 7 years later.

Btw... I've mentioned this a few times before, but many years ago I had the most phenomenal dream ever, it was about the second coming of Christ. It was truly the most realistic and amazing dream I ever had, by far. And in that dream, the rapture happened immediately after the tribulation, at the same time as the second coming of Christ. That's not the reason for my view, but I think it's interesting that I had that dream, because it goes along with what the scriptures says about the Day of the Lord and with the view I concluded was the correct one, for a number of reasons.

 

[Woodznutz]

Immediately after the Tribulation, Jesus sets up His Millennial reign. He has touched down on the earth and remains here. What would be the sense in taking us out of the earth to meet Him in the sky when He is already down here? In the rapture, we go to Him, He doesn't come to earth to gather us. We are the saints that come back with Him when he appears on earth during the tribulation at the Mt. of Olives to prevent the destruction of all life here on earth.
ek. It means out of. He takes us out of the misery that is coming. What sense would it make for Him to take us out after the fact? Where does He take us to after the Tribulation, because He is here at that point. At the rapture He is in the clouds, not on earth.

There is a debate as to when the rapture takes place. Pre, mid or post trib. Since only the Father knows, all we can do is speculate.

It is possible that the 'rapture' occurs between the sixth and the seventh seal, the half hour of silence in heaven, just before the Day of the Lord, the seventh seal. Maybe it takes a half hour to gather the saints. Also, the 'quiet before the storm'.

God doesn't take us up before or during the tribulation, and many will be persecuted and killed during "Jacob's Trouble".

 

[The Irish Ram]

I don't believe that contradicts other verses, or the post-trib rapture.

The rapture happens the same time as the second coming of Christ.

In fact... the idea of a pre-trib rapture pretty much means that there is a THIRD coming of Christ, not second, if He comes to take believers away and then comes again 7 years later.

Btw... I've mentioned this a few times before, but many years ago I had the most phenomenal dream ever, it was about the second coming of Christ. It was truly the most realistic and amazing dream I ever had, by far. And in that dream, the rapture happened immediately after the tribulation, at the same time as the second coming of Christ. That's not the reason for my view, but I think it's interesting that I had that dream, because it goes along with what the scriptures says about the Day of the Lord and with the view I concluded was the correct one, for a number of reasons.

He doesn't come to us during the rapture. He never touches earth. We go up to Him. We are caught up.
The word "rapture" comes from the Latin word raptus, which comes from the Latin verb rapio, meaning "to snatch" or "to carry off. The dead first, and then those followers that are alive. Jesus is in the clouds in the air. In your dream, where do these people go? Isn't Christ already here post trib? Why not just stay here with Him?
1 Thess. 4:17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

And we even know how long the whole process takes. As long as it takes light to go from the front of the eye to the back of the eye and back to the front. 11/100 of 1 second. In a twinkling of an eye, we will be transformed. He only comes here twice. The second time He stays. And we come with Him.

If we are appointed to the wrath of God, and we are still here throughout the tribulation, what is the point of having a rapture? Where are all the dead and those who are alive being carried off to? Not to Heaven. So where and why? Apocalyptic wrath is coming like the earth has never seen. And the Bible says we are not appointed to His wrath. That is why I believe we are taken out of the horror. And that part is just my opinion.

You think the Day of the Lord is at the end of the Tribulation. Woodz thinks maybe it's between seals during the Trib. Some think it is at the White Throne Judgment. As with the rapture, we'll know when it happens. It isn't when so much, but will I be ready, that's important. It would be nice if we had more info, but it doesn't change our daily desire, to be forever with the Lord.

 

[buttercup]

He doesn't come to us during the rapture. He never touches earth. We go up to Him. We are caught up.

He does come to this world, but I'll get to that in a moment. We are caught up, but it happens on the same day as the second coming of Christ.

This is Mark 13:24-27. I underlined the pertinent parts.

The Coming of the Son of Man​

“But in those days, after that tribulation, the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars of heaven will fall, and the powers in the heavens will be shaken. Then they will see the Son of Man coming in the clouds with great power and glory. And then He will send His angels, and gather together His elect from the four winds, from the farthest part of earth to the farthest part of heaven.


Also, Matthew 24:29-31

Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. Then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. And He will send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they will gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

^ That is the rapture, immediately after the tribulation!

The word "rapture" comes from the Latin word raptus, which comes from the Latin verb rapio, meaning "to snatch" or "to carry off. The dead first, and then those followers that are alive.

Yes, I agree. We just disagree on the timing. There is not one scripture in the bible that clearly and explicitly says the rapture happens before the tribulation.

The pre-trib rapture view is not the traditional view, it's a relatively recent interpretation. The idea that the rapture occurs before a seven-year tribulation was popularized in the 19th century.

Jesus is in the clouds in the air. In your dream, where do these people go? Isn't Christ already here post trib? Why not just stay here with Him?

I woke up from the dream in the middle of being pulled up. So that was the end of the dream, unfortunately.

There are so many things I want to study, but when I have time, I want to do an in-depth study on eschatology, specifically the timeline of all the events.

But I simply no longer believe in the pre-trib rapture....not that I was ever a firm believer in it. I remember reading the "Left Behind" book series, which promotes it, but then I listened to several teachers who are very knowledgeable on the bible, and the more I looked into it, the more convinced I was that the pre-trib view is not only wrong, but a deception.

1 Thess. 4:17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

And we even know how long the whole process takes. As long as it takes light to go from the front of the eye to the back of the eye and back to the front. 11/100 of 1 second. In a twinkling of an eye, we will be transformed. He only comes here twice. The second time He stays. And we come with Him.

That verse doesn't say we will go all the way up to Heaven and meet him there. It says we will meet Him in the clouds / air, which means Jesus will indeed be HERE, in this world, along with the angels. In fact, the verse right before the one you posted says just that: "For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven..."

So, if we're counting Jesus' earthy ministry 2000 years ago as the first coming of Christ, if there was a pre-trib rapture that would be the second coming, then 7 years later would be the third.

That's not the case though. There are only two. The second coming of Christ is on the last day, immediately after the tribulation, just as it is written.

If we are appointed to the wrath of God,

We are not appointed to the wrath of God. Maybe that was a typo?

and we are still here throughout the tribulation, what is the point of having a rapture?

The point is that it's the end of this age, and when Jesus returns we will be with Him from that point on! Also, we will get our glorified permanent bodies. (Which btw was happening in my dream, right before I woke up.)

I think you are starting with the assumption that the whole point of the rapture is to spare us from God's wrath. But again, the problem is that pre-tribbers conflate God's wrath with the tribulation, when they are two entirely different events. We will go through the tribulation, but not God's wrath. Matthew 24 even talks about the hardships we will go through, and we are called to "endure til the end." Off topic, but that specific verse is often used as 'proof' that we can lose our salvation, but that's a misapplication of that verse. It's about being 'saved' physically, from the trials and the dangerous things that will come, in the last days.

Where are all the dead and those who are alive being carried off to? Not to Heaven. So where and why? Apocalyptic wrath is coming like the earth has never seen. And the Bible says we are not appointed to His wrath. That is why I believe we are taken out of the horror. And that part is just my opinion.

Maybe you missed my earlier post where I stated this clearly, but one more time... I agree that we are NOT appointed to God's wrath. Again, the tribulation and God's wrath are two different events.

We absolutely will be taken out before that really bad stuff happens.

You think the Day of the Lord is at the end of the Tribulation. Woodz thinks maybe it's between seals during the Trib. Some think it is at the White Throne Judgment. As with the rapture, we'll know when it happens. It isn't when so much, but will I be ready, that's important. It would be nice if we had more info, but it doesn't change our daily desire, to be forever with the Lord.

I agree with you on that. It's important to be ready. Not to open up a new can of worms, but crazy as this may sound to nonbelievers... I truly believe we are getting very close to the last days of this age. It's truly amazing to see so many things that Revelation prophesied unfolding right before our eyes.

I wasn't planning to post, and certainly not a post this long, haha. Like I said, I was just popping in. But I did want to reply.

There was an excellent documentary on this topic, about the timing of the rapture. If I find it, I'll either post it here or send it to you. Thanks TIR.

 

[Carl in Michigan]

ek. It means out of. He takes us out of the misery that is coming

No, the Church will be purified in fire. Your faith will be tested unto death. If you're dead before this, you are asleep in the grave. This is a blessing:

The righteous perisheth, and no man layeth it to heart; and merciful men are taken away, none considering that the righteous is taken away from the evil to come

Notice the highlighted portion. "Be ye merciful, as your Father in heaven is merciful"

 

[Carl in Michigan]

It is possible that the 'rapture' occurs between the sixth and the seventh seal, the half hour of silence in heaven, just before the Day of the Lord, the seventh seal. Maybe it takes a half hour to gather the saints. Also, the 'quiet before the storm'.

God doesn't take us up before or during the tribulation, and many will be persecuted and killed during "Jacob's Trouble".

I initially "disagreed" with this post because I don't agree with the first part, but I do agree with the last paragraph. The Church is in the Laodecean era -- neither hot nor cold for Christ. Therefore, the Church will be tested and refined with fire -- persecution. There is no way for the Christian to get out of this. The saints and diamonds are made of carbon. Both are created through intense HEAT and PRESSURE

 

[gipper]

I initially "disagreed" with this post because I don't agree with the first part, but I do agree with the last paragraph. The Church is in the Laodecean era -- neither hot nor cold for Christ. Therefore, the Church will be tested and refined with fire -- persecution. There is no way for the Christian to get out of this. The saints and diamonds are made of carbon. Both are created through intense HEAT and PRESSURE

Lol. You’re not a Christian. Jesus told you murder is wrong. Yet you support murder.

Down you go Carl in Mecca.

 

[ding]

God will forgive any sin we commit if we are repentant, except blasphemy against the Holy Spirit.

Forgive us our trespasses as we forgive those who trespass against us.

Sounds conditional to me.

 

[Woodznutz]

I initially "disagreed" with this post because I don't agree with the first part, but I do agree with the last paragraph. The Church is in the Laodecean era -- neither hot nor cold for Christ. Therefore, the Church will be tested and refined with fire -- persecution. There is no way for the Christian to get out of this. The saints and diamonds are made of carbon. Both are created through intense HEAT and PRESSURE

I reread the account in Revelation 8 and the 'silence for half an hour' occurs when the seventh seal is opened and after the rapture.

 

[Carl in Michigan]

I reread the account in Revelation 8 and the 'silence for half an hour' occurs when the seventh seal is opened and after the rapture.

I don't believe in the "rapture." I believe in the RESURRECTION OF THE DEAD at Christs return

The "rapture" is a Protestant explanation for the Catholic belief that the dead go out immediately to heaven. They do not. The saints sleep in the grave until He returns and commands us, "Come up here!"

At our resurrection we meet Him in the clouds and land with Him on the Mt of Olive.

Our future is Jerusalem NOT heaven.

 

[Woodznutz]

I don't believe in the "rapture." I believe in the RESURRECTION OF THE DEAD at Christs return

The "rapture" is a Protestant explanation for the Catholic belief that the dead go out immediately to heaven. They do not. The saints sleep in the grave until He returns and commands us, "Come up here!"

At our resurrection we meet Him in the clouds and land with Him on the Mt of Olive.

Our future is Jerusalem NOT heaven.

"Come up here" (hither) was said to the two resurrected witnesses.

 

[Carl in Michigan]

"Come up here" (hither) was said to the two resurrected witnesses.

Yeah, they are resurrected to physical life at this time as a witness to the world before The Day of the Lord (which comes immediately after the Great Tribulation. They are taken to a place of safety (not heaven).

The Day of the Lord is the period where God plagues the world for its abuse of His Church by the Beast and the False Prophet

The saints will hear the same command as Christ descends to the Mt of Olives

 

[The Irish Ram]

I initially "disagreed" with this post because I don't agree with the first part, but I do agree with the last paragraph. The Church is in the Laodecean era -- neither hot nor cold for Christ. Therefore, the Church will be tested and refined with fire -- persecution. There is no way for the Christian to get out of this. The saints and diamonds are made of carbon. Both are created through intense HEAT and PRESSURE

Are you Jewish? Jacob's troubles describes Israel. 1/3 of Jacob's people are going to die in the next war. And then 1/3 of what's left is going to die. Only a remnant of the Jewish population will survive what is coming.

The "rapture" is a Protestant explanation for the Catholic belief that the dead go out immediately to heaven. They do not. The saints sleep in the grave until He returns and commands us, "Come up here!"

Catholics don't believe they go to Heaven when they die. According to them, they go to Purgatory to work until they are good enough to get into Heaven.

If the saints are in the grave, then what do you say to Paul? He was confident that absent from the body is present with the Lord.
If our soul doesn't go to God when we die, when do we attend the BEMA Seat of Christ? When is our coronation held? When do we receive our crowns, and when do we lay them at Christ's feet? According to the Bible, that all happens in Heaven when we die, and before we return with Christ.

Not believing in hell puts you at a disadvantage, because it explains absent from the body. Those in Abraham's Bosom were absent from their bodies. They were recognizable even without the clay exterior. When Christ was on the cross, there was an earthquake that opened the graves of those in Abraham's Bosom. According to Matthew, those souls that returned with Christ were reunited with their now incorruptible bodies. If you don't believe in hell, what do you do with Luke 16: 19-31? How do you read that and come to the conclusion that none of it is true?

If Christ's Bride is left here to endure God's wrath, why didn't the Bible use the word fire instead of the word ek, which means out of, snatched out of, carried off, kidnapped? If Christ died for our sins, and we are sinless, covered in the blood of Christ, why do we need further refinement? Wasn't what Christ did for us refined enough?

 

[The Irish Ram]

Forgive us our trespasses as we forgive those who trespass against us.

Sounds conditional to me.

Much of what God does is conditional. If you do this, I will do this. e.g. If you accept the gift Christ died to give you, I will remember your sins no more. On the other hand, His love for us is unconditional. He sees us as little lambs, in need of a shepherd.