Man

[alang1216]

The reality is that you and TN and Taz don't believe God exists and are more than happy with the evil that exists as long as this was all an accident and not intentional.

Yet, not one of you can say what you would do different other than you wouldn't do this or that.

Sorry but I just don't like being told to believe things that are obviously (at least to me) silly, lies, rationalizations, etc. I don't accept it from politicians or priests as I think it keeps us from dealing with reality. Sure alcohol or heroin makes reality easier to swallow but they are very short term solutions.

Then don't come in here and read it. No one twisted your arm. Now be truthful. You come here to validate your non-belief. Apparently you are insecure in your non-belief. Or are you fighting the good fight and eradicating the evil of believing in God?

Either way, it's not a good look.

I like to play chess and tennis but I don't believe my opponent is evil. On the other hand,

“The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing.”― Edmund Burke

 

[alang1216]

Does cold is the absence of heat make sense to you?

Sure but so?

No difference. Evil is the absence of good. Unless of course you believe existence is evil instead of good.

Sorry, not a good analogy. I can do evil or I can do good.

 

[ding]

The reality is that you and TN and Taz don't believe God exists and are more than happy with the evil that exists as long as this was all an accident and not intentional.

Yet, not one of you can say what you would do different other than you wouldn't do this or that.

Sorry but I just don't like being told to believe things that are obviously (at least to me) silly, lies, rationalizations, etc. I don't accept it from politicians or priests as I think it keeps us from dealing with reality. Sure alcohol or heroin makes reality easier to swallow but they are very short term solutions.

Then don't come in here and read it. No one twisted your arm. Now be truthful. You come here to validate your non-belief. Apparently you are insecure in your non-belief. Or are you fighting the good fight and eradicating the evil of believing in God?

Either way, it's not a good look.

I like to play chess and tennis but I don't believe my opponent is evil. On the other hand,

“The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing.”― Edmund Burke

I think motive says it all. I don't mind honest discussions, but I'm not into playing games. I have golf for that.

 

[alang1216]

I don't dispute anything you wrote, my only point was that the God Maimonides defined as only being able to create good, created a world with lots of evil. If God wants to pass responsibility for evil on to his creation, that's his call but Truman wouldn't approve.

I get that, but we are not concerned with the views of Maimonides. God didn't say he was only able to create good, men did. In a sense, God DID only create good, he created free will in man. For there to be good, there must also be the possibility of evil. For there to be light, there must be the possibility of darkness. Our world is a world of CHOICE and free will, the hyena has no choice but to live according to the mandates of the hyena, but we have that choice of living lower than the jackal (creating evil), or living as a saint.

There is no evil in the snakes bite, only his nature, man alone creates evil by DOING evil according to his choice, because by dint of his ability to know God, he must likewise have the ability to know evil.

Your choice.

I'd agree with you if I believed there was an absolute measure of 'Good'. But since I don't... Are we evil if we do what we believe to acceptable. Was Jefferson evil because he kept slaves? Are we better people because we don't?

You mean it isn't absolutely 100% good to say that children and the weak should be protected from men of ill will?

Is there any situation you can justify harming a child or rationalize it as good?

Plenty of people, maybe even Washington and Jefferson might feel selling a child of slaves to be acceptable behavior. If you thought it would maintain your family or your lifestyle you may well feel it is a good thing to do.

How about sodomizing them? Is that good?

Not to me. However, if I was a Spartan I might give a very different answer.

 

[alang1216]

I think motive says it all. I don't mind honest discussions, but I'm not into playing games. I have golf for that.

Since you seem to want to save the world, I won't interfere.

 

[ding]

Does cold is the absence of heat make sense to you?

Sure but so?

No difference. Evil is the absence of good. Unless of course you believe existence is evil instead of good.

Sorry, not a good analogy. I can do evil or I can do good.

It's a great analogy. You are just saying it's not a good analogy because it smoked your ass. I get the distinct feeling that you have never come across this concept before.

The negation of something does not make it extant. Cold is the negation of heat. Darkness is the negation of light. And evil is the negation of good.

The negation does not exist in and of itself. It can't because it is not the extant thing.

 

[ding]

I don't dispute anything you wrote, my only point was that the God Maimonides defined as only being able to create good, created a world with lots of evil. If God wants to pass responsibility for evil on to his creation, that's his call but Truman wouldn't approve.

I get that, but we are not concerned with the views of Maimonides. God didn't say he was only able to create good, men did. In a sense, God DID only create good, he created free will in man. For there to be good, there must also be the possibility of evil. For there to be light, there must be the possibility of darkness. Our world is a world of CHOICE and free will, the hyena has no choice but to live according to the mandates of the hyena, but we have that choice of living lower than the jackal (creating evil), or living as a saint.

There is no evil in the snakes bite, only his nature, man alone creates evil by DOING evil according to his choice, because by dint of his ability to know God, he must likewise have the ability to know evil.

Your choice.

I'd agree with you if I believed there was an absolute measure of 'Good'. But since I don't... Are we evil if we do what we believe to acceptable. Was Jefferson evil because he kept slaves? Are we better people because we don't?

You mean it isn't absolutely 100% good to say that children and the weak should be protected from men of ill will?

Is there any situation you can justify harming a child or rationalize it as good?

Plenty of people, maybe even Washington and Jefferson might feel selling a child of slaves to be acceptable behavior. If you thought it would maintain your family or your lifestyle you may well feel it is a good thing to do.

How about sodomizing them? Is that good?

Not to me. However, if I was a Spartan I might give a very different answer.

But you would disagree with him. You would argue that it was a universal truth. Unless you are saying you would condone sodomizing a 6 year old as good. Do you? Would you ever not criticize the person doing it? Would you ever say, well that was ok that that 6 year old got fucked in the ass by that 42 year old man because that was what they did back then? No. You wouldn't. You would say that it was self evident that that was wrong and that it will always be wrong and will never be right.

 

[ding]

I think motive says it all. I don't mind honest discussions, but I'm not into playing games. I have golf for that.

Since you seem to want to save the world, I won't interfere.

If that's how you need to see it, that's cool. I can live with that.

 

[buttercup]

Does cold is the absence of heat make sense to you?

Sure but so?

No difference. Evil is the absence of good. Unless of course you believe existence is evil instead of good.

Sorry, not a good analogy. I can do evil or I can do good.

Yes, you can do evil, but his point is that evil does not exist on its own.

It only exists because there is an objective good. It is the absence or opposition of good, just like darkness is the absence of light.

CS Lewis talked about this, here's a quote.

 

[Taz]

God created man in his own image. Man occupies a unique place in creation. God in his own nature unites the spiritual and material worlds and established his friendship. Of all visible creatures only man is able to know and love his creator. He is called to share, by knowledge and love, in God's own life. It was for this end that he was created, and this is the fundamental reason for his dignity.

Being in the image of God the human individual possesses the dignity of a person, who is not just something, but someone. He is capable of self-knowledge, of self-possession and of freely giving himself and entering into communion with other persons. And he is called by grace to a covenant with his Creator, to offer him a response of faith and love that no other creature can give in his stead.

God created everything for man, but man in turn was created to serve and love God and to offer all creation back to him. It is only in the mystery of the Word made flesh that the mystery of man truly becomes clear. St. Paul tells us that the human race takes its origin from two men: Adam and Christ. . . The first man, Adam, he says, became a living soul, the last Adam a life-giving spirit. The first Adam was made by the last Adam, from whom he also received his soul, to give him life. . . The second Adam stamped his image on the first Adam when he created him. That is why he took on himself the role and the name of the first Adam, in order that he might not lose what he had made in his own image. The first Adam, the last Adam: the first had a beginning, the last knows no end. The last Adam is indeed the first; as he himself says: "I am the first and the last."

Because of its common origin the human race forms a unity which makes us contemplate the human race in the unity of its origin in God. . . in the unity of its nature, composed equally in all men of a material body and a spiritual soul; in the unity of its immediate end and its mission in the world; in the unity of its dwelling, the earth, whose benefits all men, by right of nature, may use to sustain and develop life; in the unity of its supernatural end: God himself, to whom all ought to tend; in the unity of the means for attaining this end;. . . in the unity of the redemption wrought by Christ for all.

This law of human solidarity and charity without excluding the rich variety of persons, cultures and peoples, assures us that all men are truly brethren. The human person, created in the image of God, is a being at once corporeal and spiritual. The biblical account expresses this reality in symbolic language when it affirms that then the LORD God formed man of dust from the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living being. Man, whole and entire, is therefore willed by God.

In Sacred Scripture the term "soul" often refers to human life or the entire human person. But "soul" also refers to the innermost aspect of man, that which is of greatest value in him, that by which he is most especially in God's image. "Soul" signifies the spiritual principle in man.

The human body shares in the dignity of "the image of God": it is a human body precisely because it is animated by a spiritual soul, and it is the whole human person that is intended to become, in the body of Christ, a temple of the Spirit.

Man, though made of body and soul, is a unity. Through his very bodily condition he sums up in himself the elements of the material world. Through him they are thus brought to their highest perfection and can raise their voice in praise freely given to the Creator. For this reason man may not despise his bodily life. Rather he is obliged to regard his body as good and to hold it in honor since God has created it and will raise it up on the last day.

The unity of soul and body is so profound that one has to consider the soul to be the "form" of the body. It is because of its spiritual soul that the body made of matter becomes a living, human body; spirit and matter, in man, are not two natures united, but rather their union forms a single nature.

The Church teaches that every spiritual soul is created immediately by God - it is not "produced" by the parents - and also that it is immortal: it does not perish when it separates from the body at death, and it will be reunited with the body at the final Resurrection.

Sometimes the soul is distinguished from the spirit: St. Paul for instance prays that God may sanctify his people "wholly", with "spirit and soul and body" kept sound and blameless at the Lord's coming. The Church teaches that this distinction does not introduce a duality into the soul. "Spirit" signifies that from creation man is ordered to a supernatural end and that his soul can gratuitously be raised beyond all it deserves to communion with God.

The spiritual tradition of the Church also emphasizes the heart, in the biblical sense of the depths of one's being, where the person decides for or against God.

Paraphrased and excerpted from the Catechism of the Catholic Church

Catechism of the Catholic Church - Table of Contents

So god created Dr Mengele in his own image?

Yes, just like he created you in his own image. What you and Mengele decide to do with it is up to you.

So god was the template for guys like Mengele. They share the same lust for torture, god with his deformed babies...

Yep, but when will you give God credit for the good, Taz?

You sound kinda thankless.

When he stops deforming babies.

 

[ding]

God created man in his own image. Man occupies a unique place in creation. God in his own nature unites the spiritual and material worlds and established his friendship. Of all visible creatures only man is able to know and love his creator. He is called to share, by knowledge and love, in God's own life. It was for this end that he was created, and this is the fundamental reason for his dignity.

Being in the image of God the human individual possesses the dignity of a person, who is not just something, but someone. He is capable of self-knowledge, of self-possession and of freely giving himself and entering into communion with other persons. And he is called by grace to a covenant with his Creator, to offer him a response of faith and love that no other creature can give in his stead.

God created everything for man, but man in turn was created to serve and love God and to offer all creation back to him. It is only in the mystery of the Word made flesh that the mystery of man truly becomes clear. St. Paul tells us that the human race takes its origin from two men: Adam and Christ. . . The first man, Adam, he says, became a living soul, the last Adam a life-giving spirit. The first Adam was made by the last Adam, from whom he also received his soul, to give him life. . . The second Adam stamped his image on the first Adam when he created him. That is why he took on himself the role and the name of the first Adam, in order that he might not lose what he had made in his own image. The first Adam, the last Adam: the first had a beginning, the last knows no end. The last Adam is indeed the first; as he himself says: "I am the first and the last."

Because of its common origin the human race forms a unity which makes us contemplate the human race in the unity of its origin in God. . . in the unity of its nature, composed equally in all men of a material body and a spiritual soul; in the unity of its immediate end and its mission in the world; in the unity of its dwelling, the earth, whose benefits all men, by right of nature, may use to sustain and develop life; in the unity of its supernatural end: God himself, to whom all ought to tend; in the unity of the means for attaining this end;. . . in the unity of the redemption wrought by Christ for all.

This law of human solidarity and charity without excluding the rich variety of persons, cultures and peoples, assures us that all men are truly brethren. The human person, created in the image of God, is a being at once corporeal and spiritual. The biblical account expresses this reality in symbolic language when it affirms that then the LORD God formed man of dust from the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living being. Man, whole and entire, is therefore willed by God.

In Sacred Scripture the term "soul" often refers to human life or the entire human person. But "soul" also refers to the innermost aspect of man, that which is of greatest value in him, that by which he is most especially in God's image. "Soul" signifies the spiritual principle in man.

The human body shares in the dignity of "the image of God": it is a human body precisely because it is animated by a spiritual soul, and it is the whole human person that is intended to become, in the body of Christ, a temple of the Spirit.

Man, though made of body and soul, is a unity. Through his very bodily condition he sums up in himself the elements of the material world. Through him they are thus brought to their highest perfection and can raise their voice in praise freely given to the Creator. For this reason man may not despise his bodily life. Rather he is obliged to regard his body as good and to hold it in honor since God has created it and will raise it up on the last day.

The unity of soul and body is so profound that one has to consider the soul to be the "form" of the body. It is because of its spiritual soul that the body made of matter becomes a living, human body; spirit and matter, in man, are not two natures united, but rather their union forms a single nature.

The Church teaches that every spiritual soul is created immediately by God - it is not "produced" by the parents - and also that it is immortal: it does not perish when it separates from the body at death, and it will be reunited with the body at the final Resurrection.

Sometimes the soul is distinguished from the spirit: St. Paul for instance prays that God may sanctify his people "wholly", with "spirit and soul and body" kept sound and blameless at the Lord's coming. The Church teaches that this distinction does not introduce a duality into the soul. "Spirit" signifies that from creation man is ordered to a supernatural end and that his soul can gratuitously be raised beyond all it deserves to communion with God.

The spiritual tradition of the Church also emphasizes the heart, in the biblical sense of the depths of one's being, where the person decides for or against God.

Paraphrased and excerpted from the Catechism of the Catholic Church

Catechism of the Catholic Church - Table of Contents

So god created Dr Mengele in his own image?

Yes, just like he created you in his own image. What you and Mengele decide to do with it is up to you.

So god was the template for guys like Mengele. They share the same lust for torture, god with his deformed babies...

Yep, but when will you give God credit for the good, Taz?

You sound kinda thankless.

When he stops deforming babies.

That's exactly how people who don't believe He exists see it.

 

[alang1216]

Does cold is the absence of heat make sense to you?

Sure but so?

No difference. Evil is the absence of good. Unless of course you believe existence is evil instead of good.

Sorry, not a good analogy. I can do evil or I can do good.

It's a great analogy. You are just saying it's not a good analogy because it smoked your ass. I get the distinct feeling that you have never come across this concept before.

The negation of something does not make it extant. Cold is the negation of heat. Darkness is the negation of light. And evil is the negation of good.

The negation does not exist in and of itself. It can't because it is not the extant thing.

I don't know what you're smoking but it isn't my ass. Though you are correct, I have never come across this concept before and there is a very good reason for that.

Is white the absence of black? Is dictatorship the absence of democracy?

 

[alang1216]

Does cold is the absence of heat make sense to you?

Sure but so?

No difference. Evil is the absence of good. Unless of course you believe existence is evil instead of good.

Sorry, not a good analogy. I can do evil or I can do good.

Yes, you can do evil, but his point is that evil does not exist on its own.

It only exists because there is an objective good. It is the absence or opposition of good, just like darkness is the absence of light.

CS Lewis talked about this, here's a quote.

Sorry but there is no 'objective' good. Good is defined by the society you live in. We believe slavery is an evil but many of our founding fathers did not. Were they evil or just used a different scale? If you were a cannibal you'd might think eating your enemy was a good thing.

 

[Taz]

God created man in his own image. Man occupies a unique place in creation. God in his own nature unites the spiritual and material worlds and established his friendship. Of all visible creatures only man is able to know and love his creator. He is called to share, by knowledge and love, in God's own life. It was for this end that he was created, and this is the fundamental reason for his dignity.

Being in the image of God the human individual possesses the dignity of a person, who is not just something, but someone. He is capable of self-knowledge, of self-possession and of freely giving himself and entering into communion with other persons. And he is called by grace to a covenant with his Creator, to offer him a response of faith and love that no other creature can give in his stead.

God created everything for man, but man in turn was created to serve and love God and to offer all creation back to him. It is only in the mystery of the Word made flesh that the mystery of man truly becomes clear. St. Paul tells us that the human race takes its origin from two men: Adam and Christ. . . The first man, Adam, he says, became a living soul, the last Adam a life-giving spirit. The first Adam was made by the last Adam, from whom he also received his soul, to give him life. . . The second Adam stamped his image on the first Adam when he created him. That is why he took on himself the role and the name of the first Adam, in order that he might not lose what he had made in his own image. The first Adam, the last Adam: the first had a beginning, the last knows no end. The last Adam is indeed the first; as he himself says: "I am the first and the last."

Because of its common origin the human race forms a unity which makes us contemplate the human race in the unity of its origin in God. . . in the unity of its nature, composed equally in all men of a material body and a spiritual soul; in the unity of its immediate end and its mission in the world; in the unity of its dwelling, the earth, whose benefits all men, by right of nature, may use to sustain and develop life; in the unity of its supernatural end: God himself, to whom all ought to tend; in the unity of the means for attaining this end;. . . in the unity of the redemption wrought by Christ for all.

This law of human solidarity and charity without excluding the rich variety of persons, cultures and peoples, assures us that all men are truly brethren. The human person, created in the image of God, is a being at once corporeal and spiritual. The biblical account expresses this reality in symbolic language when it affirms that then the LORD God formed man of dust from the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living being. Man, whole and entire, is therefore willed by God.

In Sacred Scripture the term "soul" often refers to human life or the entire human person. But "soul" also refers to the innermost aspect of man, that which is of greatest value in him, that by which he is most especially in God's image. "Soul" signifies the spiritual principle in man.

The human body shares in the dignity of "the image of God": it is a human body precisely because it is animated by a spiritual soul, and it is the whole human person that is intended to become, in the body of Christ, a temple of the Spirit.

Man, though made of body and soul, is a unity. Through his very bodily condition he sums up in himself the elements of the material world. Through him they are thus brought to their highest perfection and can raise their voice in praise freely given to the Creator. For this reason man may not despise his bodily life. Rather he is obliged to regard his body as good and to hold it in honor since God has created it and will raise it up on the last day.

The unity of soul and body is so profound that one has to consider the soul to be the "form" of the body. It is because of its spiritual soul that the body made of matter becomes a living, human body; spirit and matter, in man, are not two natures united, but rather their union forms a single nature.

The Church teaches that every spiritual soul is created immediately by God - it is not "produced" by the parents - and also that it is immortal: it does not perish when it separates from the body at death, and it will be reunited with the body at the final Resurrection.

Sometimes the soul is distinguished from the spirit: St. Paul for instance prays that God may sanctify his people "wholly", with "spirit and soul and body" kept sound and blameless at the Lord's coming. The Church teaches that this distinction does not introduce a duality into the soul. "Spirit" signifies that from creation man is ordered to a supernatural end and that his soul can gratuitously be raised beyond all it deserves to communion with God.

The spiritual tradition of the Church also emphasizes the heart, in the biblical sense of the depths of one's being, where the person decides for or against God.

Paraphrased and excerpted from the Catechism of the Catholic Church

Catechism of the Catholic Church - Table of Contents

So god created Dr Mengele in his own image?

Yes, just like he created you in his own image. What you and Mengele decide to do with it is up to you.

So god was the template for guys like Mengele. They share the same lust for torture, god with his deformed babies...

Yep, but when will you give God credit for the good, Taz?

You sound kinda thankless.

When he stops deforming babies.

That's exactly how people who don't believe He exists see it.

There’s no empirical proof that god exists.

 

[alang1216]

I don't dispute anything you wrote, my only point was that the God Maimonides defined as only being able to create good, created a world with lots of evil. If God wants to pass responsibility for evil on to his creation, that's his call but Truman wouldn't approve.

I get that, but we are not concerned with the views of Maimonides. God didn't say he was only able to create good, men did. In a sense, God DID only create good, he created free will in man. For there to be good, there must also be the possibility of evil. For there to be light, there must be the possibility of darkness. Our world is a world of CHOICE and free will, the hyena has no choice but to live according to the mandates of the hyena, but we have that choice of living lower than the jackal (creating evil), or living as a saint.

There is no evil in the snakes bite, only his nature, man alone creates evil by DOING evil according to his choice, because by dint of his ability to know God, he must likewise have the ability to know evil.

Your choice.

I'd agree with you if I believed there was an absolute measure of 'Good'. But since I don't... Are we evil if we do what we believe to acceptable. Was Jefferson evil because he kept slaves? Are we better people because we don't?

You mean it isn't absolutely 100% good to say that children and the weak should be protected from men of ill will?

Is there any situation you can justify harming a child or rationalize it as good?

Plenty of people, maybe even Washington and Jefferson might feel selling a child of slaves to be acceptable behavior. If you thought it would maintain your family or your lifestyle you may well feel it is a good thing to do.

How about sodomizing them? Is that good?

Not to me. However, if I was a Spartan I might give a very different answer.

But you would disagree with him. You would argue that it was a universal truth. Unless you are saying you would condone sodomizing a 6 year old as good. Do you? Would you ever not criticize the person doing it? Would you ever say, well that was ok that that 6 year old got fucked in the ass by that 42 year old man because that was what they did back then? No. You wouldn't. You would say that it was self evident that that was wrong and that it will always be wrong and will never be right.

The point is that I can judge people by my standards but they can also judge me by their standards. I eat animals, many don't and would consider my actions an evil. Which of us is good and which is evil?

 

[Taz]

I don't dispute anything you wrote, my only point was that the God Maimonides defined as only being able to create good, created a world with lots of evil. If God wants to pass responsibility for evil on to his creation, that's his call but Truman wouldn't approve.

I get that, but we are not concerned with the views of Maimonides. God didn't say he was only able to create good, men did. In a sense, God DID only create good, he created free will in man. For there to be good, there must also be the possibility of evil. For there to be light, there must be the possibility of darkness. Our world is a world of CHOICE and free will, the hyena has no choice but to live according to the mandates of the hyena, but we have that choice of living lower than the jackal (creating evil), or living as a saint.

There is no evil in the snakes bite, only his nature, man alone creates evil by DOING evil according to his choice, because by dint of his ability to know God, he must likewise have the ability to know evil.

Your choice.

I'd agree with you if I believed there was an absolute measure of 'Good'. But since I don't... Are we evil if we do what we believe to acceptable. Was Jefferson evil because he kept slaves? Are we better people because we don't?

You mean it isn't absolutely 100% good to say that children and the weak should be protected from men of ill will?

Is there any situation you can justify harming a child or rationalize it as good?

Plenty of people, maybe even Washington and Jefferson might feel selling a child of slaves to be acceptable behavior. If you thought it would maintain your family or your lifestyle you may well feel it is a good thing to do.

How about sodomizing them? Is that good?

Not to me. However, if I was a Spartan I might give a very different answer.

But you would disagree with him. You would argue that it was a universal truth. Unless you are saying you would condone sodomizing a 6 year old as good. Do you? Would you ever not criticize the person doing it? Would you ever say, well that was ok that that 6 year old got fucked in the ass by that 42 year old man because that was what they did back then? No. You wouldn't. You would say that it was self evident that that was wrong and that it will always be wrong and will never be right.

The point is that I can judge people by my standards but they can also judge me by their standards. I eat animals, many don't and would consider my actions an evil. Which of us is good and which is evil?

Vegetarian = good
Carnivore = bad, with stinkier farts.

 

[ding]

Does cold is the absence of heat make sense to you?

Sure but so?

No difference. Evil is the absence of good. Unless of course you believe existence is evil instead of good.

Sorry, not a good analogy. I can do evil or I can do good.

It's a great analogy. You are just saying it's not a good analogy because it smoked your ass. I get the distinct feeling that you have never come across this concept before.

The negation of something does not make it extant. Cold is the negation of heat. Darkness is the negation of light. And evil is the negation of good.

The negation does not exist in and of itself. It can't because it is not the extant thing.

I don't know what you're smoking but it isn't my ass. Though you are correct, I have never come across this concept before and there is a very good reason for that.

Is white the absence of black? Is dictatorship the absence of democracy?

Race is extant. Political party or ideology is extant. So no.

But evil is the absence of good.

 

[ding]

Does cold is the absence of heat make sense to you?

Sure but so?

No difference. Evil is the absence of good. Unless of course you believe existence is evil instead of good.

Sorry, not a good analogy. I can do evil or I can do good.

Yes, you can do evil, but his point is that evil does not exist on its own.

It only exists because there is an objective good. It is the absence or opposition of good, just like darkness is the absence of light.

CS Lewis talked about this, here's a quote.

Sorry but there is no 'objective' good. Good is defined by the society you live in. We believe slavery is an evil but many of our founding fathers did not. Were they evil or just used a different scale? If you were a cannibal you'd might think eating your enemy was a good thing.

So if you lived during a time that it was not wrong for adult men to have sex with children, you would have accepted that?

You do realize that it is logic which determines what is right and wrong, right? So is logic absolute or can we make logic be anything we want too?

 

[ding]

God created man in his own image. Man occupies a unique place in creation. God in his own nature unites the spiritual and material worlds and established his friendship. Of all visible creatures only man is able to know and love his creator. He is called to share, by knowledge and love, in God's own life. It was for this end that he was created, and this is the fundamental reason for his dignity.

Being in the image of God the human individual possesses the dignity of a person, who is not just something, but someone. He is capable of self-knowledge, of self-possession and of freely giving himself and entering into communion with other persons. And he is called by grace to a covenant with his Creator, to offer him a response of faith and love that no other creature can give in his stead.

God created everything for man, but man in turn was created to serve and love God and to offer all creation back to him. It is only in the mystery of the Word made flesh that the mystery of man truly becomes clear. St. Paul tells us that the human race takes its origin from two men: Adam and Christ. . . The first man, Adam, he says, became a living soul, the last Adam a life-giving spirit. The first Adam was made by the last Adam, from whom he also received his soul, to give him life. . . The second Adam stamped his image on the first Adam when he created him. That is why he took on himself the role and the name of the first Adam, in order that he might not lose what he had made in his own image. The first Adam, the last Adam: the first had a beginning, the last knows no end. The last Adam is indeed the first; as he himself says: "I am the first and the last."

Because of its common origin the human race forms a unity which makes us contemplate the human race in the unity of its origin in God. . . in the unity of its nature, composed equally in all men of a material body and a spiritual soul; in the unity of its immediate end and its mission in the world; in the unity of its dwelling, the earth, whose benefits all men, by right of nature, may use to sustain and develop life; in the unity of its supernatural end: God himself, to whom all ought to tend; in the unity of the means for attaining this end;. . . in the unity of the redemption wrought by Christ for all.

This law of human solidarity and charity without excluding the rich variety of persons, cultures and peoples, assures us that all men are truly brethren. The human person, created in the image of God, is a being at once corporeal and spiritual. The biblical account expresses this reality in symbolic language when it affirms that then the LORD God formed man of dust from the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living being. Man, whole and entire, is therefore willed by God.

In Sacred Scripture the term "soul" often refers to human life or the entire human person. But "soul" also refers to the innermost aspect of man, that which is of greatest value in him, that by which he is most especially in God's image. "Soul" signifies the spiritual principle in man.

The human body shares in the dignity of "the image of God": it is a human body precisely because it is animated by a spiritual soul, and it is the whole human person that is intended to become, in the body of Christ, a temple of the Spirit.

Man, though made of body and soul, is a unity. Through his very bodily condition he sums up in himself the elements of the material world. Through him they are thus brought to their highest perfection and can raise their voice in praise freely given to the Creator. For this reason man may not despise his bodily life. Rather he is obliged to regard his body as good and to hold it in honor since God has created it and will raise it up on the last day.

The unity of soul and body is so profound that one has to consider the soul to be the "form" of the body. It is because of its spiritual soul that the body made of matter becomes a living, human body; spirit and matter, in man, are not two natures united, but rather their union forms a single nature.

The Church teaches that every spiritual soul is created immediately by God - it is not "produced" by the parents - and also that it is immortal: it does not perish when it separates from the body at death, and it will be reunited with the body at the final Resurrection.

Sometimes the soul is distinguished from the spirit: St. Paul for instance prays that God may sanctify his people "wholly", with "spirit and soul and body" kept sound and blameless at the Lord's coming. The Church teaches that this distinction does not introduce a duality into the soul. "Spirit" signifies that from creation man is ordered to a supernatural end and that his soul can gratuitously be raised beyond all it deserves to communion with God.

The spiritual tradition of the Church also emphasizes the heart, in the biblical sense of the depths of one's being, where the person decides for or against God.

Paraphrased and excerpted from the Catechism of the Catholic Church

Catechism of the Catholic Church - Table of Contents

So god created Dr Mengele in his own image?

Yes, just like he created you in his own image. What you and Mengele decide to do with it is up to you.

So god was the template for guys like Mengele. They share the same lust for torture, god with his deformed babies...

Yep, but when will you give God credit for the good, Taz?

You sound kinda thankless.

When he stops deforming babies.

That's exactly how people who don't believe He exists see it.

There’s no empirical proof that god exists.

Sure there is. It is literally all around you. You just don't accept it.

Do you have empirical evidence that God doesn't exist?

 

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I don't dispute anything you wrote, my only point was that the God Maimonides defined as only being able to create good, created a world with lots of evil. If God wants to pass responsibility for evil on to his creation, that's his call but Truman wouldn't approve.

I get that, but we are not concerned with the views of Maimonides. God didn't say he was only able to create good, men did. In a sense, God DID only create good, he created free will in man. For there to be good, there must also be the possibility of evil. For there to be light, there must be the possibility of darkness. Our world is a world of CHOICE and free will, the hyena has no choice but to live according to the mandates of the hyena, but we have that choice of living lower than the jackal (creating evil), or living as a saint.

There is no evil in the snakes bite, only his nature, man alone creates evil by DOING evil according to his choice, because by dint of his ability to know God, he must likewise have the ability to know evil.

Your choice.

I'd agree with you if I believed there was an absolute measure of 'Good'. But since I don't... Are we evil if we do what we believe to acceptable. Was Jefferson evil because he kept slaves? Are we better people because we don't?

You mean it isn't absolutely 100% good to say that children and the weak should be protected from men of ill will?

Is there any situation you can justify harming a child or rationalize it as good?

Plenty of people, maybe even Washington and Jefferson might feel selling a child of slaves to be acceptable behavior. If you thought it would maintain your family or your lifestyle you may well feel it is a good thing to do.

How about sodomizing them? Is that good?

Not to me. However, if I was a Spartan I might give a very different answer.

But you would disagree with him. You would argue that it was a universal truth. Unless you are saying you would condone sodomizing a 6 year old as good. Do you? Would you ever not criticize the person doing it? Would you ever say, well that was ok that that 6 year old got fucked in the ass by that 42 year old man because that was what they did back then? No. You wouldn't. You would say that it was self evident that that was wrong and that it will always be wrong and will never be right.

The point is that I can judge people by my standards but they can also judge me by their standards. I eat animals, many don't and would consider my actions an evil. Which of us is good and which is evil?

So for you morals are just opinions and they can be anything anyone wants.

That seems like something an idiot would believe.