Figures... mention a different flavor of christianity and what comes back? shit talking against that different flavour of christianity. Lovely. You, sir, are a testement to the increase of athiesm.
Indeed, it's hilarious that you readily discount the Amish because they are not born again.. As if being born again is any uniform christian standard. Im sure the catholics might have something to say about that on your left while the MORE charismatic denominations scoff at your watered down version of salvation. But, it's the AMISH that suck becuase they don't make waves?
ps... christian "godly wisdom" /= intellegence. sorry.
It's intrigueing and sad all at the same time.
Intrigueing:
Because there are belief systems in the world that are not inviting someone to church, or loving their enemy, or running rescue missions; serving thousands of daily meals, but see their belief system as a legal mandate by god to physically do harm to others who don't bend a knee to their belief/god.
Yet, good old biblical Christianity is "hammered" as though it's adherents get television time to behead infidels, and rattle sabres of war to the non-conforming world.
What causes this reaction to scripture. Did "eightball" make up the word, "born again"? Did eightball make up John 3:16? Hardly. Non-Christian man's fight isn't with anyone, but Christ/God.
You want Christ in your nice, little P.C. box? Go ahead and put Him in it. Think it changes reality? Hardly. God is the same yesterday, today, and tomorrow.
Want to use the poor, gentle Amish as a shield or debate defense? Go ahead. God loves the Amish, just like He loves you. You can shake a verbal fist at eightball or whoever that mentions biblical messages, or even accuse eightball or others of twisting the scripture, but God expects every man/woman to check for themselves. Eightball must go back to scripture often to make sure he's not passing on a message both in action, verbally to anyone that goes against the gospel. Eightball is fallible, and doesn't like to be wrong, but eightball can and will be wrong in past, present and future, but hopes and prays that he will get back on path and will accept correction.
Was the scripture designed to be interpretted diametrically different to any or all human beings? Hardly. Does man try to "soft ball" the impact of scripture to assuage his/her's own sick soul condition? Most assuredly. It hurts to be wrong. It hurts all of us. Being right is much more comfortable than being wrong, and knowing it. "Owning it" is very uncomfortable, but it's end product is a contrite and humble heart, that is readily open to instruction. We are not talking about the end product of brainwashing as in cultic tactics either. Just plain old openess to being wrong or skewed in thought, and willing to accept that possibility is a great step in the human soul.
Intriguing yes, surprising no. Christ said, not eightball, that there would be "mockers" by the myriads, and if one is so enlightened above those that expound Christian "talk/messages" allegedly obtuse, then maybe those enlightened ones should do as the Bereans did, and study the scripture for themselves? Maybe they aren't obtuse messages?
The Apostle Paul who wrote the books of Corinthians, Philippians, Galatians, Ephesians, Titus, Timothy, Colossians, Thessalonians, and possibly Hebrews to the various churches of Asia Minor to teach, correct, discipline and encourage in their fledgling states,
commended all who "tested" all that he wrote or verbally said in light of existing O.T. scriptures of their day.
If I am misinterpretting Christian doctrine, then put me to the test or anyone who espouses anything about Christ and show that "we or me" are wrong, and that biblical Christianity is not what we express here or elsewhere.
I invite correction, that is astute, logical, well reasoned. I also know that I am fallible, and do not know all the answers.
Most of all, I invite correction that is respectful, as I have shown to all others on this board during my years here. I would especially expect a moderator of this
esteemed board to reflect the spirit of debate in a manner that reflects admiration for diverse thoughts and not repugnance that disrespects a members system of belief. That isn't hamstringing free speech, but only keeping it in the vain of friendly discourse, seasoned with mutual respect.
A religious board or section of a forum needs to be able to debate issues of belief in the spirit of love, and give and take, without personalizing or disrespecting a particular member or members because they belong or espouse a particular religion.
Exceptions would be "hate mongering" as a religion, or belief systems that encourage physical harm, anti-social, or anti-cultural behavior that provokes or encourages anarchy, leading to personal, life endangering. That is something that Jesus never did or espoused, nor should it be tolerated by anyone who sees, hears, or reads statements by anyone claiming to represent biblical Christianity.
The alleged Christianity of the Crusades was a counterfeit of biblical Christianity, and shouldn't even be considered Christianity at all. It isn't unlike Hitler's Third Reich (thousand year reign/Revelations) that took a little here and there from the bible and built a monumental, unGodly, tragic era in human history.
Christ did bring a message that He was indeed God in the flesh; that if you observed, heard, Him, you would have a glimpse of what God-your-Creator, was like in nature. Christ said, "I and the Father are One". Not like Jesus is one in agreement, but one in nature, and being in totality. Trully a mystery for man's finite mind, thus the many debates on the Trinity. It indeed is not Polytheism, but that's for another time or thread in the religion forum.
Christ calmly slept on one of the boats of His disciples as they crossed the Sea of Galilee, when a violent storm arose. Upon awakening by His frightened, followers, who feared drowning, He merely told the sea, "Be still", and the sea immediately calmed. His followers marveled that this Man could, by His mere word, order creation to obey or submit. It was at this time that little light bulbs started to pop "on" in their heads that this Man was not a mere teacher or prophet, but much more. Surely the past miracles of healing, would have been convincing, but the very nature of man then and
now precluded any early assumptions of Christs true diety. Otherwise we wouldn't be debating on this thread.
Actually, we who have been exposed to the bible in the last several centurys, are without excuse. We have greater opportunity to believe, than those 2,000 years ago. We have the accumulated works of Christ and His disciples contained within a 66 book, book. A book that hasn't changed in intent, or grammatical verbage for eons as most religious books do in a matter of a hundred years of being re-scribed hand to hand. The 100+ year old Book of Mormon has gone through thousands of changes since the early 1800's. The bible has been accused of being corrupted because of its age, yet the 1,900+ year old Dead Sea scrolls had a complet text of the O.T. book of Isaiah, and it was "word for word" identical to the present day bible's rendition of Isaiah. Only small verbage differences were found, but the total message or intent of the scripture was totally, 100% the same. Remember that Isaiah as well as all the books were hand scribed thousands of times, yet with the great chance of human error or fallibility easily changing scripture in over 2,000 years, it didn't occur. I will call it supernatural, skeptics will take the broad, easy street, and call it, rolling a seven ten times in a row. Just a low odds chance that worked. I'll stick to God's omnipotence, omniscience, and omnipresence, as my conclusion. If God wants to communicate with humanity, He will also protect His means of commnication from being corrupted. If He/God, can't keep His Word from being changed, then He is most indeed a fallible, weak, Creator, and then the human race is back to flailing in the ice cold waters around the Titanic.
Sadly:
This is the tough part.
Sad, because, we all by our human natures, don't like pain. If we do, we are really weird.
There is however good pain, and bad pain. There is the bad pain of a sliver entering a finger. There is however the good pain of the tweezers pulling the sliver out of the finger in one piece. So the last pain is often followed with relief. So good pain hurts too, but it also is the harbinger of "good".
So goes the gospel of Christ. It is a painful sliver to the unsaved, soul. It reminds and reacts to the human soul like a sliver entering tender, nerve-filled flesh. It breaks apart tissue, and irritates. It confounds the human soul, as it asks or mandates against natural human nature.
Man is born, dead; according to the bible. All of us are born in that state. We come to an age of reasoning and decision about our course of life, and we are finally at that point of "responsibility" or "accountability" before our Maker. What is life? Why am I here? What, why, who, me, creation, existence, evil, goodness, peace, goals, jobs, marriage, love, children, security, death, birth, suffering, disease,.............What is all of this? There has to be a reason for it all. It couldn't possibly be the result of rising from primordial soup. If that's all it is, then why the dreams, ambitions, passion, arts, philosophy, music, etc. Are we just Apes that jumped from finger painting to the latter mentioned attributes? It is indeed a great chasm that was jumped.
Something has to make sense of all of this.
When man/woman comes to this point in their life, they are on the threshold of honestly seeking meaning. With that attitude in place, their Creator can finally respond in kind, with a sometimes subtle, and sometimes overt calling to their soul. Things that seemed mundane start to have meaning. Little things once are now important, and can be perceived as stepping stones towards something bigger than oneself.
The sadness, is that the very answers lie in a mere book of a few pages that contain enough information and knowledge both of man's travails in seeking God, and God's endeavors to communicate (God's travails/heartache) with His creation to answer all the most important questions needed to have restoration with one's Creator.
Intellect is good. Man has the capacity to ponder, to will, to express, to reason, to act, to emotionally enhance, in such unique ways above all of creation. Yet with that wonderful quality, is the capacity to say no, to a preponderance of evidence that demands an honest verdict.
Notice that not once in the bible does God force man to believe, but God does allow circumstances to influence man's decisions in ways that should "push" or encourage man to realize or see God's ways over man's answers that circumvent divine intervention.
God does not take a sword to the throat of the unbeliever through His human instruments and exact a threat of believe or die. He simply said in the Great Commission in Matthew, "Go out to the utter most parts of the world" and tell about Me. That gospel(good news) is simply the life, the crucifixion, the burial, and the ressurrection of Christ, the Messiah to the Jews, and Jesus the Saviour of mankind to the gentiles. It's not complex, yet it has created debate over the last 20 centuries, that no other system of belief has endured or spawned.
For those that so abhor the mention of "Christ", "born again" "salvation", "sinner", "sins", "Lordship", "repentance", etc... Take a big dare, and crack open that book with all the dust on it's cover that sits in a lonely part of your abode, or still sits in a book store somewhere waiting for your purchase. Try your best to open it's pages to the New Testament that starts with the advent of Christ's life on planet earth and ends at His ripe old age of 33 earthbound years.
Try to let the bible talk to you, and see if it says to you a different message than your pre-conceived message from whomever, whoever, or even yourself has compiled in your vast storage bank of brain cells over the years.
Try to eliminate the dysfunctional life of the past in the poor or whatever parental modeling, the hurts of people that you trusted, the failures of goals in life, the mundane and the vivid experiences, that have created a "model" of God within your mind. Let the bible reveal God's side of His nature, or the bible's model of God. It will most likely hit with "logger heads" against your manmade model of God, that is an acummulation of experiences over years of fighting the good fight of survival on this terrestrial ball in your own intellectual strength.
It's takes a brave soul, who's willing to see another side, and raise one's hands in surrender, and lay down one's weapons of combat, and accept that one has fought a good fight, but a false fight.
I eightball, was a staunch intellectual, on the other side from Christianity. I have accumulated many years of higher learning and have three degrees in the of which two are in the sciences.......Geology being one of them, yet there was still an empty wondering in my soul that wasn't being quenched. How many here can nod in the affirmative? How many here are willing to face their demons, and not put up the old defense, and fight like a drowning man without a lifesaver?
Even Paul of the bible thought He was doing God's work, rounding up Christians and bringing them back to Jerusalem for trial ( imprisonment and death). He even stood by and encouraged the stoning death of many of Jesus's followers, giving hearty support.
Yet, one day, Paul while on his ferverish pursuit of Christians was blinded by a heavenly light in the desert, and fell from his horse. He and only he heard a voice speak to him, "Paul, why do you pursue me". Paul asked who "He" was. "He" said, "Jesus". On that day, Paul was a changed man. He gave up the fight, and surrendered to the true captain of his life. From thence onward, Paul endured beating and hardships beyond our imaginations nowadays. These were exacted upon him by the very ones that he earlier gave support to in their pursuit of Christians.
Who, here is willing to open that book and try their darndest to read the first pages of Matthew, Mark, Luke, or John, without entertaining preconceived thoughts of who God, Christ, or Christianity is or ought to be?
Letting down ones guard is akin to letting down one's preconceived and often skewed ideas. It's not unlike being afraid of the dark when a child. There comes a time in life when we must pass from child to adult, not in physical nature, but in soul. The dark needs light to reveal it's pit-falls. A little truth goes a long way to revealing what is in the dark, and leading a man/woman on a straight and safe path.
