Long Wave that Union Jack

[Comrade]

And don't look back!

Eight Terror Suspects Seized Near London

Eight Terror Suspects Seized Near London

Eight Terror Suspects Seized Near London


http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/ap/20040330/ap_on_re_eu/britain_terror_arrests_4


Cheers you blokes! Jolly Good Show!!!

Not to use this board as a glorified press release, but damn if this couldn't very well have been:

"Massive truck bombing in London kills hundreds, national emergency declared"

I'm seeing a half-ton of ammonium nitrate in storage that would have been mixed with fuel just days prior to Thursday, 10 June 2004, now no longer able to punish the UK electorate. I'm seeing a silver lining among the storm clouds gathered over Spain. I'm sending out a "hell yah!" to our British chaps across the ocean today.

And if I have to post something for debate, which I should, it's that the people of the UK would not fold and withdraw from Iraq in the same manner as Spain, even if such an attack were to succeed. The mettle of Britannia and the will of the people all trace back to a bunch of tribes fighting for survival in a cold, hostile land. You peeps are BAD ASS! And smart as a whip!

Good f’cking job!

 

[jimnyc]

Bravo, UK!

 

[Atticus]

Hi,

Reading your email with interest. I find it almost impossible to understand the US shoot first ask questions later response to anything that bothers them.

I am UK citizen who grew up during a terrorist conflict in Northern Ireland. In this small country it is possible to see and understand the whole dreadful issue of terrorism in the round.

I watched for 18 years while my country tore itself to pieces with terrorist groups often funded by US organisations like NORAID.

There is a real misconception that this is like a conventional war. It is not. The evils of terrorism often are routed in extremely pressurised societies. Increasing the pressure simply increases the tendency to violent reaction.

One of the most galling aspects of UKs involvement in this US governments Iraq adventure is that our Tony Blair our Prime Minister recognised that the way to reach a solution to the 30 year terrorists problems in Northern Ireland was through dialogue and by trying to reach cross party agreement.

Yet here the UK is riding out with The Dubya posse to extinguish the fires of middle eastern terrorism with cans of gasoline.

Your own lovely Dick Cheney has said that this is a conflict that could take 50 years or more. Think. This is not just you. It is your children and your children's children.

The people of Spain have shown a willingness to consider all options. They have resisted a long term campaign of terror by ETA and will have drawn their own lessons from this.

Atticus

 

[jimnyc]

Originally posted by Atticus
This is not just you. It is your children and your children's children.

That is correct. So that our grandchildren and their children don't have to live in a society where terrorists are negotiated with and allowed to roam free.

 

[Atticus]

Hi,

You just dont get it do you.

What Northern Ireland shows us is that you can arrest the terrorists, you can kill them, but that increases the problem.

How many of the terrorists held in Guantanamo bay have sons, fathers, brothers, cousins who will simply see that you are holding their family and want revenge against USA, UK etc.

I watched it happen in my country.

Terrorism is a grey area.

There are no winners, and no losers. When conditions arrise in a community that spawn terrorism there is a choice. You can either engage with the community and find out about the issues then try and resolve them or you can go in guns blazing and make the whole thing worse.

Bear in mind in, it is our soldiers on their streets not the other way round. You might ask yourself how many Iraqi civilians have died? If this was your family how would you react?

Atticus

 

[NewGuy]

Originally posted by Atticus
Hi,

You just dont get it do you.

What Northern Ireland shows us is that you can arrest the terrorists, you can kill them, but that increases the problem.

How many of the terrorists held in Guantanamo bay have sons, fathers, brothers, cousins who will simply see that you are holding their family and want revenge against USA, UK etc.

I watched it happen in my country.

Terrorism is a grey area.

There are no winners, and no losers. When conditions arrise in a community that spawn terrorism there is a choice. You can either engage with the community and find out about the issues then try and resolve them or you can go in guns blazing and make the whole thing worse.

Bear in mind in, it is our soldiers on their streets not the other way round. You might ask yourself how many Iraqi civilians have died? If this was your family how would you react?

Atticus

And Israel is proof you HAVE to have guns blazing. The war cannot be won because it is a religious war, not any conventional war. Until people understand that, they will have no grasp of the situation.

 

[jimnyc]

Originally posted by Atticus
You just dont get it do you.

What Northern Ireland shows us is that you can arrest the terrorists, you can kill them, but that increases the problem.

What do you suggest be done then? Should we just give up and allow them to have a free pass to excercise their terroristic ways?

 

[Atticus]

You need the best intelligence.

You need to stand with your friends (yes that includes France and Germany) because all eyes are needed.

But you need to find out what the root cause of the problem is or it expands infinitely.

Do not confuse terrorists with the communities from which they come. The citizens of these communities if they trust you are your best defence because believe it or not they are normal people who want normal lives and in normal circumstances will not tolerate terrorism in their midst.

Be determined be informed

Atticus

 

[Atticus]

By the way, that Israeli approach really works.

Yes sir, see that success every week with more bodies on the TV screen.

Atticus

 

[DKSuddeth]

I certainly see the success of Israel's 'get tough' policy

 

[NewGuy]

Nobody in their right mind would say Israel handles it all the right way, but it is clear that terrosism, by that example, does not stop until it has achieved its goal. Terrorism as we are discussing it is clearly an issue of religious faith and a willingness to die for the cause. To think you can peacefully beat that or even WIN that in any capacity is rediculous. You can only fight it and break even in continual war.

 

[DU Freeper]

Originally posted by Atticus
There is a real misconception that this is like a conventional war. It is not. The evils of terrorism often are routed in extremely pressurised societies. Increasing the pressure simply increases the tendency to violent reaction.

Your missing a vital point in your argument. What the Irish were fighting for was freedom from the Brits in their homeland. The Islamic extremist want to rule the world by the sword with their religion. If the Muslims just wanted freedom of one country, then we would have something to work with. But they want the world to be converted to a radical form of Islam and nothing will appease them until they have it. That is why we have to have a pre-emptive war against them.

 

[Zhukov]

Originally posted by Atticus
By the way, that Israeli approach really works.

Yes sir, see that success every week with more bodies on the TV screen.

Atticus

NOTEWORTHY STATISTIC
Here's a statistic that somehow escaped the notice of Western news media: In 2003, the number of Israeli fatalities due to terrorism declined by more than 50% from the previous year, from 451 to 213. The overall number of attacks also declined from 5,301 in 2002 to 3,838 in 2003, a drop of 30%.

How were these declines achieved? Certainly not out of some newfound Palestinian sense of moderation, much less with concrete tactical assistance from the Palestinian Authority.

In fact, the declines were achieved by Israeli operational successes and tactical innovations, beginning with Operation Defensive Shield in April 2002 and culminating with the accelerated construction of the security fence. By increasing pressure on terrorist groups via targeted assassinations, mass arrests, periodic and sustained occupations of Palestinian towns and cities, the demolition of supply tunnels, more intensive closures and curfews, and so on, Israel has significantly improved its margin of security.

The Jerusalem Post, Jan 11, 2004

Care to try again?

 

[Atticus]

Hi,

Very happy to try again, these are all good point but do not necessarily detract from my central arguement.

For clarity, I firmly believe that each country must do its best to protect itself against terrorism.

However, having closely observed the effects of terrorism on a small society for some 30 years I am clear that agressive security measures without political understanding and attempt to resolve the underlying problems usually makes the problem worse.

From previous responses

quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
NOTEWORTHY STATISTIC
Here's a statistic that somehow escaped the notice of Western news media: In 2003, the number of Israeli fatalities due to terrorism declined by more than 50% from the previous year, from 451 to 213. The overall number of attacks also declined from 5,301 in 2002 to 3,838 in 2003, a drop of 30%.....
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I'm hesitant in putting responding because I have only a very basic grasp of the Israeli situations However, I found the following statisics that I submit as an outsider seeking to understand.

These are statistics for fatal terrorist attacks on Israeli citizens

1990 33
1991 101
1992 34
1993 45
1994 65
1995 29
1996 56
1997 41
1998 16
1999 8
1990s total = 428

This covers the period around the when there was much political discussion and an attempt to reach agreement through the Oslo agreement in 1993.

In the period since 2000 with a more aggressive policy and little meaningful political dialogue, the same website listed 834 Israeli deaths at the hands of terrorism.

During this period Israeli Security measures resulted in the death of approximately 3000 Palestinians.

As an outsider my immediate reaction to these statistics is that overall, since 2000, the treat of terrorism increased following the collapse of political discussions despite increased security activity.

Atticus

 

[Atticus]

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Re. Du Freeper

Your missing a vital point in your argument. What the Irish were fighting for was freedom from the Brits in their homeland. The Islamic extremist want to rule the world by the sword with their religion. If the Muslims just wanted freedom of one country, then we would have something to work with. But they want the world to be converted to a radical form of Islam and nothing will appease them until they have it. That is why we have to have a pre-emptive war against them.

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------

There are elements of truth in what you say but I would suggest that the overall picture is distorted.

Northern Ireland has two conflicting religious communities, Protestant and Catholic. Prots are in the majority and had historically put together a political structure that essentially served to deny economic and political rights to Caths.

A series of civil rights marches by Caths in the late 60s lead to increased tension and physical violence.

The UK gov actually sent the British Army into Northern Ireland to protect the smaller Cath community against violence from the Prot majority.

The process of sending trained soldiers into a civilian setting was a well documented disaster. A lack of understanding of the political background and aggressive military training meant the soldiers were out of their depth and rapidly escalated tensions, (Bloody Sunday massacre).

The result was a prolonged period of unabated terrorism that only resolved into an imperfect peace (that may take another generation to settle to true normality) after Prime Minister Blair and others made a specific effort to explore and address the underlying political causes.

What is most frightening is that the pictures of coalition troops on the streets of Bagdad are very reminicent of the images of British troops on the streets of Derry & Belfast at the start of the NI troubles.

With respect to Islamic Extremeists, there may be some truth in what you say. However every country has extremists and what is important is how much influence they have. Is it correct to assume that the entire Islamic world is collectively subject to the same extremism?

If you were to apply the same blurring of distinctions to USA and extremists such as Timothy McVeigh what would happen?
US citizens are child murdering bombers who believe in the destruction of civil governance? Is this true?

In a normal society they remain at the fringe. In Northern Ireland, escalations in tension and a misunderstanding of the political background brought extremism to the fore and gave it a poisonous voice in communities.

Our current actions risk driving Islamics into the arms of extremists. Richard Clarke made reference to a speech by Osama Bin Laden made before the Iraq war that USA would use 911 as an excuse to invade an oil rich country unconnected with Al Quaida. In the light of subsequent events I wonder how that speech has been percieved by impressionalble young men all over the middle east and how this has helped reduce terrorism

Even I as a westerner find it ironic that while you describe the Islamic extremist agenda to take over the world, our troops are on their streets and we are openly debating forcing our political and cultural values onto their societies.

In taking their democratic stand, Spain are not going soft on terrorism but are questioning what exactly Iraq had to do with terrorism in the first place (little or nothing is the increasingly accepted answer) and whether the shoot first ask questions later approach really leads to a safer world.

I count myself as one of many UK citizens who agree with their use of democracy to raise these valuable questions.

Atticus

 

[Zhukov]

Originally posted by Atticus
This covers the period around the when there was much political discussion and an attempt to reach agreement through the Oslo agreement in 1993.

In the period since 2000 with a more aggressive policy and little meaningful political dialogue, the same website listed 834 Israeli deaths at the hands of terrorism.

During this period Israeli Security measures resulted in the death of approximately 3000 Palestinians.

As an outsider my immediate reaction to these statistics is that overall, since 2000, the treat of terrorism increased following the collapse of political discussions despite increased security activity.

Atticus

You miss the point entirely.

After Arafat was offered 90% of everything he wanted he refused it and initiated this current wave of violence, what is referred to as the Aqsa Intifadah, which has been going on since around 2000-01.

One cannot have a 'political dialogue' with a terrorist who wants nothing else but to utterly destroy you, and yet the Israelis have no one else to negotiate with. With whom would you like them to politely engage in diplomacy? There is no one.

The only option is to build a fence, and fight the terrorists off until it is complete.

The article I provided indicates that fighting terrorism aggressively has reduced Israeli casualties.

The terrorism in the Middle East is not precisely the same as the terrorism which plagues Northern Ireland.

 

[Zhukov]

Originally posted by Atticus
With respect to Islamic Extremeists, there may be some truth in what you say. However every country has extremists and what is important is how much influence they have. Is it correct to assume that the entire Islamic world is collectively subject to the same extremism?

If you were to apply the same blurring of distinctions to USA and extremists such as Timothy McVeigh what would happen?
US citizens are child murdering bombers who believe in the destruction of civil governance? Is this true?

You should do some research into how many Americans approved of McVeigh's behavior as opposed to how many Palestinians approve of Hamas' behavior, and terrorism in general. Based on your statements, I believe you may be surprised.

 

[MadMax]

Originally posted by Atticus
Hi,

Reading your email with interest. I find it almost impossible to understand the US shoot first ask questions later response to anything that bothers them.

I am UK citizen who grew up during a terrorist conflict in Northern Ireland. In this small country it is possible to see and understand the whole dreadful issue of terrorism in the round.

I watched for 18 years while my country tore itself to pieces with terrorist groups often funded by US organisations like NORAID.

There is a real misconception that this is like a conventional war. It is not. The evils of terrorism often are routed in extremely pressurised societies. Increasing the pressure simply increases the tendency to violent reaction.

One of the most galling aspects of UKs involvement in this US governments Iraq adventure is that our Tony Blair our Prime Minister recognised that the way to reach a solution to the 30 year terrorists problems in Northern Ireland was through dialogue and by trying to reach cross party agreement.

Yet here the UK is riding out with The Dubya posse to extinguish the fires of middle eastern terrorism with cans of gasoline.

Your own lovely Dick Cheney has said that this is a conflict that could take 50 years or more. Think. This is not just you. It is your children and your children's children.

The people of Spain have shown a willingness to consider all options. They have resisted a long term campaign of terror by ETA and will have drawn their own lessons from this.

Atticus

Brilliant, we shall appease and negotiate with fuckin animals cause your country's " experience " with said animals is so fuckin succesfull. Oh the brave Spaniards are an example of all civilized races on how to deal with extremists. I am sorry but what you offer is not acceptable to the Americans I know. What lessons did the "BRAVE " Spaniards learn????? How to have another group of asshole basically elect the Government they choose??? Call me what you want but I shall help chosse the Gov in this country, not them, you nor any other retarded assholes.

 

[MadMax]

I apologize if I sound like a jerk. but I am passionate about hte fact that we need to fight forever if need be to wipe out these extremist fucks! They understand and listen to nothing.... What is so hard to understand about that???

 

[DU Freeper]

Islam is a religion that will always be a threat to peace in the world. Unless Islam is totally eradicated we will always have terrorism and the murder of women and children. Of course eradicating them is not possible, but we must never appease them and aggressively put down their uprisings as soon as they show themselves.