LIBERALS, You were there with me under Bush where have you gone now?

[Truthmatters]

USA PATRIOT Act - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


The first act reauthorized all but two of the provisions of Title II that would have expired. Two sections were changed to sunset on December 31, 2009: section 206 — the roving wiretap provision — and section 215, which allowed access to business records under FISA. Section 215 was amended further regardless so as to give greater judicial oversight and review. Such orders were also restricted to be authorized by only the FBI Director, the FBI Deputy Director, or the Executive Assistant Director for National Security, and minimization procedures were specified to limit the dissemination and collection of such information. Section 215 also had a "gag" provision, which was changed to allow the defendant to contact their Attorney.[169] However, the change also meant that the defendant was also made to tell the FBI who they were disclosing the order to — this requirement was removed by the USA PATRIOT Act Additional Reauthorizing Amendments Act.[170]

The patriot act we now have it not the same law as the one under Bush.


How many times do you have to be told this?

Please people remember it is no longer the same law as under Bush

 

[CrusaderFrank]

USA PATRIOT Act - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


The first act reauthorized all but two of the provisions of Title II that would have expired. Two sections were changed to sunset on December 31, 2009: section 206 — the roving wiretap provision — and section 215, which allowed access to business records under FISA. Section 215 was amended further regardless so as to give greater judicial oversight and review. Such orders were also restricted to be authorized by only the FBI Director, the FBI Deputy Director, or the Executive Assistant Director for National Security, and minimization procedures were specified to limit the dissemination and collection of such information. Section 215 also had a "gag" provision, which was changed to allow the defendant to contact their Attorney.[169] However, the change also meant that the defendant was also made to tell the FBI who they were disclosing the order to — this requirement was removed by the USA PATRIOT Act Additional Reauthorizing Amendments Act.[170]

The patriot act we now have it not the same law as the one under Bush.


How many times do you have to be told this?

Please people remember it is no longer the same law as under Bush

Obama threw a teaspoon of sand in the Grand Canyon...see how different it now is?

 

[Joe Steel]

Wealth redistribution is the highest calling of any government. Any government which doesn't hold it among it's greatest responsibilities is a danger to the general welfare and should be dissolved.

No.. equal treatment by government and the protection of the nation as a whole is the highest calling of government....

wealth redistribution is inherently against equal treatment

**** any of you entitlement junkies and Robin Hood dreamers

Unless a man has the property to support himself, he will be a slave to the man who does. Wealth redistribution guarantees his liberty.

 

[Truthmatters]

That is JUST ONE of the changes in the law.

I cant post them all so go to the link and read the rest

 

[QUENTIN]

Seriously where have all the liberal minded american's dissapeared to?

I remember when bush was president you guys were right there with me complaining about the patriot act, bush's atrocious spending without paying for it, and the general lack of responsibility to the people the administration projected.

Things haven't changed under obama, the government is still doing the same crap you guys were protesting and complaining about with me when bush was president.

Where are you all now?

Why are you silent?

Why do you refuse to speak out anymore?

I feel exactly the same way. I'm still just as much opposed to the invasive foreign occupations of Iraq and Afghanistan, the total rejection of the rule of law in favor of unchecked executive authority, Orwellian imprisonment without trial, surveillance without warrants, bailouts and handouts to massive corporations at the expense of the average American being fucked over, acquiescence to lobbyists and industry, failure to investigate or prosecute felonies for political reasons, privatization of war and health care, and general secrecy and dishonesty in the way government functions without proper oversight or transparency to the people it is intended to serve.

All of those things have continued unabated under Obama, some have gotten a little better, some have gotten a little worse, but they're all vital issues of our times that are as repugnant in 2010 as they were in 2007 or 2003. I judge deeds and actions based on their merits, not the people who do them, as should any remotely honest or consistent person.

I think the answer is that those who pretended to oppose Bush policies then did a 180 when Obama was elected weren't actually liberals at all, they were just partisan Democrats. In the same way those who had no problem with Bush policies then suddenly came out against them when Obama was elected aren't conservatives at all, they were just partisan Republicans. Liberal and conservative are based on ideology and values, those who subscribe to who is doing something rather than what they're doing have no ideology or values they just mindlessly root for their "team."

 

[CrusaderFrank]

That is JUST ONE of the changes in the law.

I cant post them all so go to the link and read the rest

Please spare the electrons

 

[Truthmatters]

So you are going to ignore all the changes to the law and pretend it is the same law BUSH used to spy on Americans.

Gee why am I not surpirzed you will continue to live in a world that is fact free?

 

[uptownlivin90]

Seriously where have all the liberal minded american's dissapeared to?

I remember when bush was president you guys were right there with me complaining about the patriot act, bush's atrocious spending without paying for it, and the general lack of responsibility to the people the administration projected.

Things haven't changed under obama, the government is still doing the same crap you guys were protesting and complaining about with me when bush was president.

Where are you all now?

Why are you silent?

Why do you refuse to speak out anymore?

It get's lonely in independentland there doesn't it?

Both the left and the right are hypocrites in most regards.

As of right now my meter regarding how much has "changed" (from 1 to 10) is at a 2.3. In other words in 2008 we were faced with McCain (Bush-light) and Obama (Bush light with a twist). The twist is "change" that stays the same but tastes different enough to piss of the Bush fans.

Oh and another twist, it's like Bush with the possibility of gun control and bullshit health care mandates.

Am I pissed, sure. Am I surprised? No.

 

[Foxfyre]

Seriously where have all the liberal minded american's dissapeared to?

I remember when bush was president you guys were right there with me complaining about the patriot act, bush's atrocious spending without paying for it, and the general lack of responsibility to the people the administration projected.

Things haven't changed under obama, the government is still doing the same crap you guys were protesting and complaining about with me when bush was president.

Where are you all now?

Why are you silent?

Why do you refuse to speak out anymore?

That's one of the things I hate most about politics.

Most rightwingers did not start threads criticiizing the government response to Katrina--the criticisms on the right were somewhat different than those on the left but they were by gosh valid. There were dozens of threads started by leftwingers re Katrina.

Most rightwingers did not start threads criticizing the Iraq War or how it was prosecuted. Their criticisms were somewhat different than those from the Left but they were valid. There were hundreds of threads started by leftwingers re the Iraq War.

Most rightwingers did not start threads condemning the Prescription Drug bill promoted by President Bush. It was one of his worst initiatives ever. Both the right and left were mostly ominously silent on that one.

Most rightwingers did not start threads sounding alarm bells over President Bush's embrace of global warming and international efforts to combat it. Both the right and left were mostly ominously silent on that one too.

Most rightwingers did not start threads condemning President Bush's initiative to grant amnesty to illegal aliens. Again not too much interest on either side there.

Most rightwingers did not start threads questioning the success or lack thereof of No Child Left Behind. That would have been an interesting thread with sufficient interest.

Most rightwingers did not start threads condemning the more objectionable elements of the Patriot Act. Leftwingers started dozens if not hundreds.

The trend is to be silent if it's your dog in the fight and scream loud and rudely at any sins or infractions by the other side.

I wish we could set aside party affiliations, partisanship, and blind prejudices and hatreds and actually analize the pros and cons of those government initiatives that affect us all.

As one American quipped recently, it simply isn't enough to not suck as badly as the other side sucks. None of us should set the bar that low and/or settle for that.

(On other sites, I did start threads on or participated on threads criticizing every one of those issues I listed.)

 

[QUENTIN]

Then stand up and speak out with those of us who feel the same instead of taking every possible opportunity to denegrate and dismiss our concerns when we bring them up.

Who's we? Sorry Pilgrim, if you are referring to the tea party movement then I can not simply stand up and speak up with them. They are a movement that wasn't around during the Bush Administration, and has a majority of people who have no problem with the Bush Administration as 57% of the people in a recent poll have a favorable view of Bush.

Until they prove themselves that they are not just a arm of the GOP, I will not even give them credit on the basis of being a legitimate movement that wants real change instead of just a turn to the far right.

As for Obama, I supported candidate Obama more than President Obama because candidate Obama was more of a actual Liberal. President Obama is left leaning on his best days.

Hmm, I definitely agree with the sentiment and bemoan the fact quite a bit that a lot of people who self-identified as liberal and seemed to support liberal or progressive policies did an about face when Obama was elected and simply supported Obama regardless of what he did, revealing themselves not as liberals but simply party line followers.

However, if what Plymco is suggesting is that they then join the Tea Party movement, which is radically opposed to any liberal ideas, ideals, or policies, then he's barking up the wrong tree.

Those who are genuinely liberal or progressive continue to oppose the destructive policies of government and organize on the basis of those objections and the solutions they believe in. It would make no sense for them to organize with people who support so many of the destructive policies they spent years opposing. That would make them not liberals, but simply anti-whatever-government-is-in-power. Things like United for Peace and Justice or the ANSWER Coalition or ACLU are far more appropriate groupings for those who opposed the majority of the Bush Administration and subsequently Obama Administration's policies, not the Tea Party that, by and large, simply supports the GOP and is funded by the far right.

The guy has only been president for a little over a year. I gave Bush a good two and a half years to try to govern and I plan on giving Obama the same.

Obama took over the country while it was in the toilet and I think he's making an honest effort to get it out of the toilet.

I hope he succeeds.

Why should you sit idly back and give a president or politician years to do the wrong thing while simply "hoping" they'll eventually turn around and do the right thing? That's ridiculous. The way democracy functions properly is for the citizenry to constantly agitate for the changes they want and policies they support and oppose any politician who refuses to enact them or institutes policies inconsistent with their ideals.

The passive stance you suggest is one of the best courses of action to assure a government that does not represent you.

So you are going to ignore all the changes to the law and pretend it is the same law BUSH used to spy on Americans.

Gee why am I not surpirzed you will continue to live in a world that is fact free?

The Patriot Act changes, like the attempts to close (but merely relocate the same broken institution) Guantanamo Bay, or the changes made to detention policy, or business regulation, or numerous other issues are, while not insignificant and sometimes a small step in the right direction, largely surface changes that don't address or alter the fundamental problems. With maybe a handful of notable exceptions, for the most part, the "progress" we've seen in the last year and a half is more rebranding than reform.

 

[DiamondDave]

Wealth redistribution is the highest calling of any government. Any government which doesn't hold it among it's greatest responsibilities is a danger to the general welfare and should be dissolved.

No.. equal treatment by government and the protection of the nation as a whole is the highest calling of government....

wealth redistribution is inherently against equal treatment

**** any of you entitlement junkies and Robin Hood dreamers

Unless a man has the property to support himself, he will be a slave to the man who does. Wealth redistribution guarantees his liberty.

No.. unless a man has the willingness to earn for himself and the equal treatment and protection of liberties, he will be a useless piece of shit.... and in our current entitlement junkie supporting system, he becomes the slave to those handing him meager handouts at the expense of others thru forced redistribution


Hand in hand with the freedom to succeed comes the freedom to fail

For even when we were with you, this we commanded you, that if any would not work, neither should he eat.

 

[QUENTIN]

Ummm.. technically.... there was not a war with either, it is military action authorized by congress and ordered by the President... and the 'war' with Iraq was started in the very early 90's, and was still in effect with the terms of cease-fire being violated... W did not 'start' the 'war'

There is no US ordered torture, just because YOU want something deemed as torture... and individual actions of torture are taken care of thru the legal system available

You complained about the horrible way the local governments handled the evacuation?? Great..

Many people complained about W's poor spending and economic policies... and did you complain when people such as Barney Frank were taking actions leading to the floundering economy??

Show a reduction in environmental standards issued by the government please...

And yes... it is the 'same' or hypocrisy how many Obamabots and left wingers will indeed stop their objections with Obama in charge, even though the practices they chanted against in their Bush Derangement Syndrome have remained under Obama

On the opposite end of the spectrum but being exactly the same beast, we have DD here serving as a perfect example of the equal problem of those who pretend to be conservatives when Democrats are in power, but actually lack any conviction and just thoughtlessly, reflexively support Republicans and oppose Democrats because they've built up a lens of "their side" through which they see the world.

Ultimately the problem you're addressing comes down to the fact that most people don't like to spend the time and effort required to think for themselves.

 

[DiamondDave]

Ummm.. technically.... there was not a war with either, it is military action authorized by congress and ordered by the President... and the 'war' with Iraq was started in the very early 90's, and was still in effect with the terms of cease-fire being violated... W did not 'start' the 'war'

There is no US ordered torture, just because YOU want something deemed as torture... and individual actions of torture are taken care of thru the legal system available

You complained about the horrible way the local governments handled the evacuation?? Great..

Many people complained about W's poor spending and economic policies... and did you complain when people such as Barney Frank were taking actions leading to the floundering economy??

Show a reduction in environmental standards issued by the government please...

And yes... it is the 'same' or hypocrisy how many Obamabots and left wingers will indeed stop their objections with Obama in charge, even though the practices they chanted against in their Bush Derangement Syndrome have remained under Obama

On the opposite end of the spectrum but being exactly the same beast, we have DD here serving as a perfect example of the equal problem of those who pretend to be conservatives when Democrats are in power, but actually lack any conviction and just thoughtlessly, reflexively support Republicans and oppose Democrats because they've built up a lens of "their side" through which they see the world.

Ultimately the problem you're addressing comes down to the fact that most people don't like to spend the time and effort required to think for themselves.

1) There is nothing to pretend about me being a conservative, or supporting and living by conservative ideals
2) I do not reflexively support a Republican and I vote against many or abstain from voting for any candidate if neither has a set of stances that I for the most part support
3) Evidently you are pretty much guilty of what you accuse others of, that being not thinking

 

[Article 15]

Seriously where have all the liberal minded american's dissapeared to?

I remember when bush was president you guys were right there with me complaining about the patriot act, bush's atrocious spending without paying for it, and the general lack of responsibility to the people the administration projected.

Things haven't changed under obama, the government is still doing the same crap you guys were protesting and complaining about with me when bush was president.

Where are you all now?

Why are you silent?

Why do you refuse to speak out anymore?

Here's my .02

It's seems like the biggest complaint is spending. In particular, HRC and the stimulus. Obama campaigned on these things. He said he was going to pass the stimulus right away. He said he was going to reform healthcare. Anyone in their right mind knew this was going to cost money. And he was elected. How can you expect the left to join the chorus against what they voted for?

Is he a hypocrite on the Patriot Act and the GWOT? He certainly is on the Patriot Act. Ain't that a ***** and a prediction come true. I remember a whole bunch of people warning that once you give the gov't that kind of power they wont give it up and they didn't ... what a shock.

And the GWOT ... the man said he was going to amp up A-Stan. In Iraq he's is approaching a point where he is going to have to shit or get off the pot. We were told that by this summer combat troops would be gone. I'm betting he just shuffles the deck or paints the horse a different color and if he does I will hammer him for it.

But you want to know why the liberals haven't joined you against the administration?

I know that your point is that people are giving a pass to Obama because he's "their guy" and I agree that there will always be a lot of sentiment for "their guy." It's a reality that wont change ... Bush still had like 20 something percent of the country thinking he was doing a good job when he left office.

But other than voting for things like HRC and the stimulus which the right vehemently opposed ... even before day one of Obama's presidency the right made it clear they would oppose anything the administration did and they followed up on it. From day one it's been non-stop outrage after outrage. Frankly, I don't blame them for not joining up with something like the tea party or joining the noise machine because they view it as disingenuous and partisan.

They may speak silently at the voting booth but I wouldn't expect to see many changes in the ranks at places like USMB.

 

[Ravi]

It's seems like the biggest complaint is spending. In particular, HRC and the stimulus. Obama campaigned on these things. He said he was going to pass the stimulus right away. He said he was going to reform healthcare. Anyone in their right mind knew this was going to cost money. And he was elected. How can you expect the left to join the chorus against what they voted for?

Yes, yes he did. And last time I checked, he won the election.

When they aren't complaining that he hasn't fulfilled his campaign promises they are complaining that he has. Can't win with these guys.

 

[DiamondDave]

It's seems like the biggest complaint is spending. In particular, HRC and the stimulus. Obama campaigned on these things. He said he was going to pass the stimulus right away. He said he was going to reform healthcare. Anyone in their right mind knew this was going to cost money. And he was elected. How can you expect the left to join the chorus against what they voted for?

Yes, yes he did. And last time I checked, he won the election.

When they aren't complaining that he hasn't fulfilled his campaign promises they are complaining that he has. Can't win with these guys.

And funny.. if the ~50% that do not pay income taxes had an equal % stake in the game... don't think they would be in to a lot of extra government spending... and if these programs suddenly encurred a cost to those receiving benefits, we would see a lot more complaints.. it is pretty obvious Obama bought the votes of those that benefit directly from his handout systems which are woven in to his entitlement mantra

 

[Xenophon]

It's seems like the biggest complaint is spending. In particular, HRC and the stimulus. Obama campaigned on these things. He said he was going to pass the stimulus right away. He said he was going to reform healthcare. Anyone in their right mind knew this was going to cost money. And he was elected. How can you expect the left to join the chorus against what they voted for?

He campaigned on doing things in a new way, post partisan and transparent, destroying the old washington tax & spend culture.


He renegged on that 100%.

The fact that the stimulous turned into a debacle and healthcare is loaded with perks for cronies can be laid directly at his feet.


That is how he lost the independants.

Democrats back him the same as always and GoP oppose him the same as always, but the reason his poll numbers are where they are is indepenants have left him.

 

[Ravi]

 

[Murf76]

It's seems like the biggest complaint is spending. In particular, HRC and the stimulus. Obama campaigned on these things. He said he was going to pass the stimulus right away. He said he was going to reform healthcare. Anyone in their right mind knew this was going to cost money. And he was elected. How can you expect the left to join the chorus against what they voted for?

Yes, yes he did. And last time I checked, he won the election.

When they aren't complaining that he hasn't fulfilled his campaign promises they are complaining that he has. Can't win with these guys.

No, he didn't. He said he wanted all Americans to have access to the same insurance options that Congress has. And it was Hilary who wanted to mandate individual compliance, not Obama.

In regard to his so-called "stimulus"... hell, he broke more promises than he kept before the ink was even dry:
Stimulus Bill Broke 7 Obama Promises | Sweetness & Light




All in all, Obama ran as a post-partisan, post-racial uniter, one who was going to clean up the corruption and change the way Washington does business. And on all counts, he turned out to be a big, fat LIAR who has doubled down on everything we already hated about career politicians. And THAT simple failure to understand the REAL mandate, to honor the spirit of his campaign promises... is what will bring him down, and his nasty socialist agenda along with him.

 

[Mr. Peepers]

I was NOT with you under Bush. Gross! Fornificationary strategry.