LIBERALS, You were there with me under Bush where have you gone now?

[rightwinger]

10. And he deserves kudos for not running roughshod over the people or turning a deaf ear to them just to do whatever it was he wanted to do.

Is this the same Bush/Cheney we all knew and loved?

The "my way or the highway" "If you are not with us you are with the terrorists" Bush/Cheney??

 

[Dr.Traveler]

This. Support for Obama is not nearly as lock step as support for Bush was from the Right Wing Radio crowd. He's already done a lot of stuff I'd have rather he didn't. At this point I'm hoping the GOP can run a sane alternative to vote for in 2012, or that the GOP will gain Congressional Control and create a scenario like Clinton/Gingrich.

Perhaps it is a matter of perspective? It looks to those on the right that most of those on the left are blindly supporting President Obama and defending his more horrendous policies and statements when they would not have tolerated anything even remotely like that from President Bush.

I snipped a good list. My only rebuttal to that list is that Obama has only had about a year and a half of policy to criticize, while your list covers an 8 year term. Get back to me at the end of Obama's second term and we'll compare lists.

As for the perspective, you are correct. If you're already used to checking out Huffingtonpost.com or watching the Daily Show then you know that they're lambasting Obama on a regular basis. If those aren't in your rotation, then you probably don't.

There isn't a lot of lockstep support for Obama on the Left right now, which is why many folks leaning left are confused when Righties call him an extremist.

 

[Foxfyre]

This. Support for Obama is not nearly as lock step as support for Bush was from the Right Wing Radio crowd. He's already done a lot of stuff I'd have rather he didn't. At this point I'm hoping the GOP can run a sane alternative to vote for in 2012, or that the GOP will gain Congressional Control and create a scenario like Clinton/Gingrich.

Perhaps it is a matter of perspective? It looks to those on the right that most of those on the left are blindly supporting President Obama and defending his more horrendous policies and statements when they would not have tolerated anything even remotely like that from President Bush.

I snipped a good list. My only rebuttal to that list is that Obama has only had about a year and a half of policy to criticize, while your list covers an 8 year term. Get back to me at the end of Obama's second term and we'll compare lists.

As for the perspective, you are correct. If you're already used to checking out Huffingtonpost.com or watching the Daily Show then you know that they're lambasting Obama on a regular basis. If those aren't in your rotation, then you probably don't.

There isn't a lot of lockstep support for Obama on the Left right now, which is why many folks leaning left are confused when Righties call him an extremist.

All good points--I don't read Huffington Post or Salon or similar sites every single day, but do visit those sites pretty often--but I don't quite understand you last point.

How does the fact that all those on the Left aren't supporting Obama on every policy translate to it being confusing that many of those on the Right, including myself, see President Obama as an extremist on a number of issues?

 

[Dr.Traveler]

How does the fact that all those on the Left aren't supporting Obama on every policy translate to it being confusing that many of those on the Right, including myself, see President Obama as an extremist on a number of issues?

Because a lot of folks on the Left leaning side of the spectrum do not see Obama as being very far to the Left at all.

Take public healthcare for an example.

Disclaimer: I did not support Public Healthcare at the Federal Level. Due to various Constitutional and practical issues I thought any solution should have been left to the State level.

Many on the Left are outright furious that a Public Option did not end up in the final form of the bill. They justifably see the bill as a cash pay out to the Insurance companies they didn't trust in the first place. In fact there's a great deal of anger over the fact that with a 60 seat Senate a Public Option didn't happen.

To them Obama's Healthcare bill looks like its pro-Big Business, a very Republican stance to take.

Then there's the current financial reform, which many on the Left see as being toothless, etc.

So when a person leaning Left looks at Obama, he looks closer to the Center.

I will confess, I consider myself a Moderate and I think that Obama isn't that far off from center. A great many of the really extreme things that have passed since he was inaugurated came from Reid, Pelosi, and various Senators with enough power to set terms on legislation.

 

[Dr.Traveler]

All good points--I don't read Huffington Post or Salon or similar sites every single day, but do visit those sites pretty often--but I don't quite understand you last point.

I wanted to add, that I must be on the opposite side of the spectrum on sites and blogs. Huffington Post is a site I visit daily, and I watch The Daily Show on a regular basis, but I only listen to Rush, Sean, Beck about an hour or so a week (It doesn't help they're on when I'm working). I watch Fox news about a few hours a month to check in on the opposing view. I check CNN throughout the day.

During the Bush era I occasionally heard Rush and Sean rake DeLay/Frist/Bush over the coals, but it was far and few between. When a Democrat co-authored an offending bill, inevitably it was the Democrat that got 40 minutes of bashing compared to the GOP leadership's 10 minutes. The exception being McCain who they hated until he became the nominee.

I'm willing to concede they were probably tougher on the Bush/Frist/DeLay crowd than I saw because I didn't visit very regularly.

 

[Coyote]

Seriously where have all the liberal minded american's dissapeared to?

I remember when bush was president you guys were right there with me complaining about the patriot act, bush's atrocious spending without paying for it, and the general lack of responsibility to the people the administration projected.

Things haven't changed under obama, the government is still doing the same crap you guys were protesting and complaining about with me when bush was president.

Where are you all now?

Why are you silent?

Why do you refuse to speak out anymore?

Those weren't the things I (as a liberal) protested - what I protested against vis a vis Bush was:

A deliberate neutering of the agencies that protect the environment and occupational health and safety, and the removal of science from policy.

A faux war we did not need to start (and no, I'm not protesting Obama's continued involvement in it because once you start a war, you can't just walk away from it).

An aggressive "your with us or against us" foreign policy.

Thus far - Obama has not crossed my line in any of the above.

I didn't protest Bush's spending for much the same reason I'm not yet protesting Obama's - both Administrations were/are operating in unique situations. Bush - in a post-9/11 reality where military and security spending was paramount; and Obama, beginning his term in the worst economic downturn since the depression. I blame neither president for those and I tend to agree with the economists who say spending by the government in a recession helps. I'm willing to wait longer than one year to see what the long-term results of these policies are. The other spending that is going on that I agree with is that on infrastructure. Our infrastructure is aging and deteriorating as much of it was built during Eisenhower's time (bridges etc). If you don't start spending to fix it, it will reach the point of no return and be much more costly to replace (including possibly costing lives). Most states are to financially strapped to pay for it without help.

However - on the Patriot Act - you got me. I did protest it under Bush. Not so much under Obama. Maybe I'm a hypocrite or maybe I'm getting used to it.

 

[Dr.Traveler]

However - on the Patriot Act - you got me. I did protest it under Bush. Not so much under Obama. Maybe I'm a hypocrite or maybe I'm getting used to it.

We've all gotten used to it. The Patriot Act has been on the books a while now and a lot of the worst fears have yet to fully materialize. You occasionally hear of a few lawsuits, or a few questionable searches, but for the most part the nightmare scenario didn't materialize.

That isn't to say it won't. I still fear that one day when we slip into Tyranny it will be the tools from the Patriot Act and the institutions put in place by DHS that will be the tools used to control us. It just hasn't happened yet.

 

[Foxfyre]

All good points--I don't read Huffington Post or Salon or similar sites every single day, but do visit those sites pretty often--but I don't quite understand you last point.

I wanted to add, that I must be on the opposite side of the spectrum on sites and blogs. Huffington Post is a site I visit daily, and I watch The Daily Show on a regular basis, but I only listen to Rush, Sean, Beck about an hour or so a week (It doesn't help they're on when I'm working). I watch Fox news about a few hours a month to check in on the opposing view. I check CNN throughout the day.

During the Bush era I occasionally heard Rush and Sean rake DeLay/Frist/Bush over the coals, but it was far and few between. When a Democrat co-authored an offending bill, inevitably it was the Democrat that got 40 minutes of bashing compared to the GOP leadership's 10 minutes. The exception being McCain who they hated until he became the nominee.

I'm willing to concede they were probably tougher on the Bush/Frist/DeLay crowd than I saw because I didn't visit very regularly.

I catch Beck's television program maybe twice a month, and that is mostly by accident, unless I happen across the rerun late night and he is on a topic that really grabs my interest. Rush and Hannity are both on our #1 ABC affiliated news station that runs in the background every day in our office. I catch bits and snatches but don't really actively listen unless there is a huge issue going in which case I do listen for names, dates, key words, activities, etc. to look up later. (Better they do that research than me re-inventing the wheel every day.) A local host broadcasting through the four-hour afternoon rush hour keeps us abreast of what local folks are thinking about whatever.

But you're right. All of the conservatives out there were tougher on Republicans than you are probably aware, but they were nowhere near as tough on the Republicans as they have been on Obama, Pelosi, Reid, et al. After all, they AGREE with the Republicans on more things than they agree with the liberal Democrats. Every one, however, will acknowledge when a Democrat does get something right.

All have been much tougher on the GOP since Obama was elected though. No Republican escapes their critique if he doesn't toe the conservative line. And the bar is set very high for that line.

It's like somebody switched on a light. We can't defend conservatism by just being quiet or nice or conciliatory. And partisan politics doesn't always produce conservatism.

There is a value system--a specific ideology based on principles--that has been added to the mix in the last year or two and that is changing the dynamics.

The Democrats should be afraid, very afraid. And so should any Republicans who think they can continue with business as usual. It isn't about parties or partisan politics any more.

 

[Alpha1]

USA PATRIOT Act - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


The first act reauthorized all but two of the provisions of Title II that would have expired. Two sections were changed to sunset on December 31, 2009: section 206 — the roving wiretap provision — and section 215, which allowed access to business records under FISA. Section 215 was amended further regardless so as to give greater judicial oversight and review. Such orders were also restricted to be authorized by only the FBI Director, the FBI Deputy Director, or the Executive Assistant Director for National Security, and minimization procedures were specified to limit the dissemination and collection of such information. Section 215 also had a "gag" provision, which was changed to allow the defendant to contact their Attorney.[169] However, the change also meant that the defendant was also made to tell the FBI who they were disclosing the order to — this requirement was removed by the USA PATRIOT Act Additional Reauthorizing Amendments Act.[170]

The patriot act we now have it not the same law as the one under Bush.


How many times do you have to be told this?

Spin from Miss Hypocrite herself.

Patriot Act - Eight Years Later
?

Reclaiming Patriotism: A Call to Reconsider the Patriot Act

On February 25, 2010, Congress passed a one-year extension of three expiring Patriot Act provisions without making much-needed changes to the overly broad surveillance bill. In late 2009, to avoid expiration on December 31, Congress briefly extended the provisions. Despite bills pending in both the House and the Senate to amend the three expiring provisions and other sections of the Patriot Act, Congress decided instead to move ahead with a straightforward reauthorization.

The ACLU is urging Congress to...examine all of our surveillance laws and amend those that have been found unconstitutional or have been abused to collect information on innocent people, including last year's changes to the Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Act (FISA) and the Attorney General Guidelines (AGGs).
Reform the Patriot Act
==============================================

1..The FBI uses NSLs to compel internet service providers, libraries, banks, and credit reporting companies to turn over sensitive information about their customers and patrons. Using this data, the government can compile vast dossiers about innocent people. Government reports, as recent as February of 2010, confirm that upwards of 50,000 of these secret record demands go out each year.

2..Material Support Statute. This provision criminalizes providing "material support" to terrorists, defined as providing any tangible or intangible good, service or advice to a terrorist or designated group. As amended by the Patriot Act and other laws since September 11, this section criminalizes a wide array of activities, regardless of whether they actually or intentionally further terrorist goals or organizations.

3..FISA Amendments Act of 2008. This past summer, Congress passed a law to permit the government to conduct warrantless and suspicion-less dragnet collection of U.S. residents' international telephone calls and e-mails.

 

[FA_Q2]

However - on the Patriot Act - you got me. I did protest it under Bush. Not so much under Obama. Maybe I'm a hypocrite or maybe I'm getting used to it.

We've all gotten used to it. The Patriot Act has been on the books a while now and a lot of the worst fears have yet to fully materialize. You occasionally hear of a few lawsuits, or a few questionable searches, but for the most part the nightmare scenario didn't materialize.

That isn't to say it won't. I still fear that one day when we slip into Tyranny it will be the tools from the Patriot Act and the institutions put in place by DHS that will be the tools used to control us. It just hasn't happened yet.

That is my problem with the patriot act. As the right points out continually, there are no damages to American citizens from the patriot act and I do believe that it has been used responsibly throughout it's short lived life. What I am afraid of is the precedent that it sets. It may well be used to justify much worse things 10 or 20 years down the road. All such policies are like that. Healthcare is another one of these policies that I believe is setting a terrible president whose true impact will not be fully felt for many years. The mandate may not seem like that big a deal to the left today but just wait until the next thing on the list of 'it be better if everyone bought...." The policies of the current presidents do more than just effect the here and now.

 

[Dr.Traveler]

However - on the Patriot Act - you got me. I did protest it under Bush. Not so much under Obama. Maybe I'm a hypocrite or maybe I'm getting used to it.

We've all gotten used to it. The Patriot Act has been on the books a while now and a lot of the worst fears have yet to fully materialize. You occasionally hear of a few lawsuits, or a few questionable searches, but for the most part the nightmare scenario didn't materialize.

That isn't to say it won't. I still fear that one day when we slip into Tyranny it will be the tools from the Patriot Act and the institutions put in place by DHS that will be the tools used to control us. It just hasn't happened yet.

That is my problem with the patriot act. As the right points out continually, there are no damages to American citizens from the patriot act and I do believe that it has been used responsibly throughout it's short lived life. What I am afraid of is the precedent that it sets. It may well be used to justify much worse things 10 or 20 years down the road. All such policies are like that. Healthcare is another one of these policies that I believe is setting a terrible president whose true impact will not be fully felt for many years. The mandate may not seem like that big a deal to the left today but just wait until the next thing on the list of 'it be better if everyone bought...." The policies of the current presidents do more than just effect the here and now.

Yep. I was trying to warn folks after 9/11 that the stuff passed now would have long shadows, and the same is true now. The Federal Government never ever gives up power, and any time you allow power to expand or consolidate, under a Democrat or Republican, you guarantee that power will stay in place when control changes hands.

I think Republicans are starting to understand this at least a little. The DHS could be a powerful tool to turn on the Tea Party should some extremist elements do something stupid. And the GOP will have only themselves to blame for making that possible.

 

[PLYMCO_PILGRIM]

So right on that last post dr. traveler, they will never give up the power they gained from the patriot act just as they wont give up the power they gained from bailouts of GM/Chrysler, the T.A.R.P., or the health care bill that just passed. Now they are trying to grab more power over energy with cap and trade.

I hope more and more people wake up and stop the power grab by the progressive dems and repubs in congress and in the executive branch.