Zone1 Let's Debate: Is "Transgender" a Valid Concept based in Reality?

[JoeB131]

It's mental illness, no different from an eating disorder, especially anorexia nervosa. In other words, the person is biologically and factually one thing, but in their head, they're another. The anorexic looks in the mirror and, dying of starvation, still thinks she's "fat". The transgender looks in the mirror with full male genitalia and sees a woman.

The difference between the two is only cultural:

Since transgenderism is part of the Left's sex obsession, they're happy to embrace it. Anorexia is not, therefore it's "allowed" to be a mental illness.

Well, if it were a mental illness, then we wouldn't have a discussion. It would be considered a disability under the Americans with Disabilities Act, which requires businesses and employers to make "reasonable accommodations" for disabilities. I once worked with a schizophrenic, who the company couldn't fire because of ADA. He'd have his off days when he was trying to telepathically communicate with the light fixtures. Thankfully, one day the Voices in his Head told him to quit.

No, anorexia is a real issue, because not eating causes real harm.

50 years ago, homosexuality was listed as a mental illness. Today it isn't. Because the APA realized that "I think it's icky" isn't a good enough reason to classify something as a mental illness.

The preponderance of scientific evidence shows that transgender brains are wired more like their identified gender than their assigned gender.

https://www.ese-hormones.org/media/...ke-their-desired-gender-from-an-early-age.pdf.

Brain activity and structure in transgender adolescents more closely resembles the typical activation patterns of their desired gender, according to findings to be presented in Barcelona, at the European Society of Endocrinology annual meeting, ECE 2018. These findings suggest that differences in brain function may occur early in development and that brain imaging may be a useful tool for earlier identification of transgenderism in young people.

In this study, Dr. Julie Bakker from the University of Liège, Belgium, and her colleagues from the Center of Expertise on Gender Dysphoria at the VU University Medical Center, the Netherlands, examined sex differences in the brain activation patterns of young transgender people. The study included both adolescent boys and girls with gender dysphoria and used magnetic resonance imaging (MRI) scans to assess brain activation patterns in response to a pheromone known to produce gender-specific activity. The pattern of brain activation in both transgender adolescent boys and girls more closely resembled that of non-transgender boys and girls of their desired gender. In addition, GD adolescent girls showed a male-typical brain activation pattern during a visual/spatial memory exercise. Finally, some brain structural changes were detected that were also more similar, but not identical, to those typical of the desired gender of GD boys and girls.

 

[martybegan]

sexual identity is what i said, because that is what i meant.

a person who was born a bio male, transitions to female, but is a lesbian.

that makes the body secondary & the brain is the origin.

That's sex identity, not sexual.

Sexual implies attraction and the act of sex.

 

[Seymour Flops]

Nope, I don't follow Transphobic propaganda and "leaked" documents someone made up.

The transgenderizers, who sent the messages made them up. Doctor marci Bowers, the president of the organization, bowers admitted that they were real. was she in on the transphobic propaganda making up the documents?

Her defense was "out of context," and - I kid you not - "we know best."

Yes, they do. People who get GAC are less likely to kill themselves.
If we made life more miserable for the Transphobes who mistreat them, the numbers would be lower still.

The research shows that they are less likely to report suicidal ideation and oppression- not that they are less likely to commit suicide. That part is a lie.

Of course, we have known for decades that cross-sex hormones alleviate depression, whether the person is "transgender" or not.

How, exactly? Her mere PRESENCE isn't going to do anything.

His presence could create anxiety and fear in the females who went into the room to have a private space to take care of personal business. That anxiety and fear may lead to suicides, which I thought you were interested in preventing

The problem is that you keep working on the assumption that letting a transgender woman in a "private space" is just like letting a cisgendered male into them.

Can you explain the difference in your own words?

What is the criteria for a male to be allowed into female spaces? is it just to say "I'm trans" no matter how obviously male they are? Or do they even have to say it? Is just walking into a female bathroom and an indication that they identify as female and nobody should ask them anything?

Is it hate speech to say "excuse me, sir. That's the lady's room?"

Then don't participate in sports.

We should say that to "transgirls" (boys) who want to avoid male sports instead of saying that to every female who wants to play female sports against females.

Again, works on the assumption that people would abuse the privilege like that.

Why would they not? It has already happened.

The reality is, most women have probably peed next to a transgender and never even knew it.

Of course.

Until about ten years ago, transvestites, for centuries dressed as women and went unnoticed.

Passable trannies can still go into the ladies room and be unnoticed.

But when a boy and a skirt is allowed to enter the girl's room at a high school no questions asked then no one should act surprised when they rape a girl in that bathroom.

And of course, only the most dishonest and cowardly would pretend that it didn't happen that way, or cover it up with a Catholic Bishop like transfer to a different location.

 

[Seymour Flops]

It's mental illness, no different from an eating disorder, especially anorexia nervosa. In other words, the person is biologically and factually one thing, but in their head, they're another. The anorexic looks in the mirror and, dying of starvation, still thinks she's "fat". The transgender looks in the mirror with full male genitalia and sees a woman.

The difference between the two is only cultural:

Since transgenderism is part of the Left's sex obsession, they're happy to embrace it. Anorexia is not, therefore it's "allowed" to be a mental illness.

Yes, what other mental disorder that includes a break from reality would we cater to instead of trying to get them to accept reality?

Imagine someone telling their psychiatrist that they identify as a person with a severe mobility disability and that they might kill themselves if they can't get "disability affirming care."

If that psychiatrist found a surgeon willing to the "transition" that person into being a paraplegic or a quadriplegic, hopefully both would go to prison.

I would guess that about half of this bizarre movement is driven by people wanting to prove that we have to accept them and cater to them no matter how crazy they are.

The other half is driven by "gay curious" folk, hoping for a chance to have certain sexual experiences without looking like they are gay.

To avoid running afoul of the board regulations, I will not say why I think so many people in that second group are focused on school kids and toddlers.

 

[Dogmaphobe]

The question I have is this: if males are so thoroughly convinced that they are females, why do the large majority keep their male genitalia?

 

[Seymour Flops]

The question I have is this: if males are so thoroughly convinced that they are females, why do the large majority keep their male genitalia?

For some of them, the transporn pays better than trying to do straight porn after bottom surgery.

Interestingly, I would have the opposite question. i would say (to an adult only) okay accepting your premise for sake of discussion: so you are a woman. But you happen to have male genitals through some mistake made by God or whatever. if there is no one way to be a woman, then there are an infinite number of ways to be a woman.So why not just be a woman with functioning male genitals?

Straight men are not going to want to be your partner once they find out that you're the va j j is fake. But tranny chasers abound, so you should do fine.

 

[playtime]

That's sex identity, not sexual.

Sexual implies attraction and the act of sex.

alrighty, sure, m'k - martin.

in the end - who cares? let people be - as long as they aren't comitting a crime - why do you care?

 

[martybegan]

alrighty, sure, m'k - martin.

in the end - who cares? let people be - as long as they aren't comitting a crime - why do you care?

words mean things.

They are making everyone care.

Every time they demand I use a pronoun that's worng
Every time they make people the bad guys for not wanting men in women's sports or places
Every time they force it in schools and on children.

 

[JoeB131]

Is it hate speech to say "excuse me, sir. That's the lady's room?"

Sure it is.

Especially when stuff like THIS happens.

Two Cis Women Kicked Out of a Boston Hotel Bathroom After One Was Ordered to "Prove" Sex

The hotel says it has suspended the security guard responsible and will conduct mandatory retraining for all staff on inclusive protocols.

www.them.us

Lesbian teen cornered by server in bathroom and forced to prove gender files charges

<p>Gerika Mudra, 18, says a Buffalo Wild Wings waiter made her show her breasts to prove she could use the women's restroom. </p>

www.advocate.com

But when a boy and a skirt is allowed to enter the girl's room at a high school no questions asked then no one should act surprised when they rape a girl in that bathroom.

And of course, only the most dishonest and cowardly would pretend that it didn't happen that way, or cover it up with a Catholic Bishop like transfer to a different location.

Well, it didn't happen that way. The Girl and the boy involved had a previous sexual relationship and had hooked up in that bathroom many times because they knew the teachers weren't watching. This was a case of relationship abuse, and that's bad, but it isn't what the haters portrayed it as.

 

[Frankeneinstein]

Then don't participate in sports.

and the science has spoken

 

[Frankeneinstein]

Sure it is.

so matter of factly...there was a time before the 60's when proper manners was the norm and not the hateful speech it is viewed as today by the ideologs of/from that era.

 

[Frankeneinstein]

Especially when stuff like THIS happens.

Two Cis Women Kicked Out of a Boston Hotel Bathroom After One Was Ordered to "Prove" Sex

The hotel says it has suspended the security guard responsible and will conduct mandatory retraining for all staff on inclusive protocols.

www.them.us

Lesbian teen cornered by server in bathroom and forced to prove gender files charges

<p>Gerika Mudra, 18, says a Buffalo Wild Wings waiter made her show her breasts to prove she could use the women's restroom. </p>

www.advocate.com

what exactly does any of this prove JoeBob?

 

[Seymour Flops]

The problem is that you keep working on the assumption that letting a transgender woman in a "private space" is just like letting a cisgendered male into them.

Can you explain the difference in your own words?

Well, can you?

What is the differrence between letting a transgender woman in a "private space" and letting a cisgendered male into them?

Why is "private space" in quotes?

What is the criteria for a male to be allowed into female spaces? is it just to say "I'm trans" no matter how obviously male they are? Or do they even have to say it? Is just walking into a female bathroom and an indication that they identify as female and nobody should ask them anything?

What is the criteria?

Is it hate speech to say "excuse me, sir. That's the lady's room?"

Sure it is.

Sure, it is not.

If an obvious male is going into the ladies room, it is much more likely that he is making a mistake than that he is "transgender." Don't forget that it is the transactivists who keep insisting that it is a tiny, miniscule part of the population so nothing to see here. Unless they are lying, probability favors that being a mistake, not this extremely rare condition.

Are they lying?

Especially when stuff like THIS happens.

Two Cis Women Kicked Out of a Boston Hotel Bathroom After One Was Ordered to "Prove" Sex

The hotel says it has suspended the security guard responsible and will conduct mandatory retraining for all staff on inclusive protocols.

www.them.us

Lesbian teen cornered by server in bathroom and forced to prove gender files charges

<p>Gerika Mudra, 18, says a Buffalo Wild Wings waiter made her show her breasts to prove she could use the women's restroom. </p>

www.advocate.com

They were wrong to do that, if true. It seems they will be retrained. If true.

Of course, anyone could have predicted situations like that, once they started this "if you say you're a girl, you're a girl" idea.

I'm surprised, though, that you are suddenly not okay with a grown women being required to show her breasts. You are fine with underaged girls being required to show their breasts to men in their locker rooms.

Is it that the "trans community" can require girls of all ages to strip down for males, but no one else?

BTW, that second story, why was it important that we know that the woman cornered and forced to show her breasts was a lesbian and biracial?

Well, it didn't happen that way. The Girl and the boy involved had a previous sexual relationship and had hooked up in that bathroom many times because they knew the teachers weren't watching.

He had access to the girls restrooms whether the teachers were watching or not. That was the districts' policy.

If he had had sex with her a thousand times but she said no for the thousand and first time, it is rape if he forced her.

The most basic of concepts must be thrown out the window for the transagenda to work.

Even it it were not rape, schools should not be facilitating male female hookups in their restrooms. Among other things, that is not what public restrooms are for.

When do girls who just need to poop between classes get to go? Only after the skirt-wearing male gets done with the possibly consensual sex encounter in the girls room?

You cannot think a rule like that accomplishes fairness. What does it accomplish, then?

This was a case of relationship abuse, and that's bad, but it isn't what the haters portrayed it as.

Yet another category of men who get a pass for relationship abuse.

 

[JoeB131]

If an obvious male is going into the ladies room, it is much more likely that he is making a mistake than that he is "transgender." Don't forget that it is the transactivists who keep insisting that it is a tiny, miniscule part of the population so nothing to see here. Unless they are lying, probability favors that being a mistake, not this extremely rare condition.

Or you guys are just making something out of nothing to deflect from the real damage you are doing to the country.

"Hey, why is Gas $5.00 a gallon now?
"Eek, look, a Tranny wants to play badmintion!"

I'm surprised, though, that you are suddenly not okay with a grown women being required to show her breasts. You are fine with underaged girls being required to show their breasts to men in their locker rooms.

Why do you think that would happen, exactly? The only place underage girls would get naked would be in a school setting with adult supervision. And the only trans people in there with them- on the rare occassion it happens - would also be minors.

BTW, that second story, why was it important that we know that the woman cornered and forced to show her breasts was a lesbian and biracial?

Because they'd never pull this kind of shit on a straight white woman who just didn't look feminine, would they?

If he had had sex with her a thousand times but she said no for the thousand and first time, it is rape if he forced her.

I agree. But they didn't rape her because they were trans (he was actually non-binary). He raped her because it was an abusive relationship.

When do girls who just need to poop between classes get to go? Only after the skirt-wearing male gets done with the possibly consensual sex encounter in the girls room?

I doubt anyone was hooking up in a bathroom with traffic. That was the point of picking that bathroom, it wasn't one that was commonly used.

You cannot think a rule like that accomplishes fairness. What does it accomplish, then?

I think it accomplishes fairness just fine. People just need to get over themselves.

Yet another category of men who get a pass for relationship abuse.

Except she didn't get a pass. She was punished.

 

[Seymour Flops]

Or you guys are just making something out of nothing to deflect from the real damage you are doing to the country.

"Hey, why is Gas $5.00 a gallon now?
"Eek, look, a Tranny wants to play badmintion!"

Much too off topic for the Clean Debate Zone.

Why do you think that would happen, exactly?

Because it has already happened several times. I rarely do links from my phone. But if you will google "man girls changing room public pool," you will see examples.

The only place underage girls would get naked would be in a school setting with adult supervision. And the only trans people in there with them- on the rare occassion it happens - would also be minors.

Not always, as you will see if you google as I requested.

Anyway, your description of what happens in school during PE is accurate, but not very comforting. Even without the "transgender" aspect, there are some concerns with the students being required to strip naked. Even in front of "adult superation." but this thread is about the trannie aspect, so I will likely start to another thread about that.

So on topic, if a seventeen year old senior male identifying as a girl to play on the softball team after being cut from baseball strolls into the girl's locker room while fourteen year old Freshman girls are changing for swimming day in their PE class I don't know how comforted they will be that a female or "female identifying" coach is watching them also.

Hesitating to play the "I know things you don't" card, but I have to say that I have been teaching mainly in junior high for eighteen years. The adult supervision in PE locker rooms often lax to say the least.

Most PE teachers are also coaches of at least one sport team and that is what they view as their primary job even if they are required to teach five periods of regular PE per day. in my observation, they sit in their offices while the students are changing in the locker room. I can't really blame them for that. If they stood around watching the kids dress and undress, they would get reputations for being creepy.

So there is no close supervision of these boys and the girls locker rooms.

Because they'd never pull this kind of shit on a straight white woman who just didn't look feminine, would they?

No, I do not believe that this would "only happen to a black lesbian."

The story itself sounds pretty fishy. She is cornered and ordered to show her breasts, and she doesn't kick the girl's a** or tell the manager, but instead, just meekly flashes the girls to a waitress? then, still does not complain to a manager.? No sale.

But in fact, I believe that things like this will happen more firmly than you do.And not just do black lesbians.

First of all, if you go out of your way to look masculine, it should not be a surprise.If you are sometimes mistaken for a male.

Second of all 20 years ago, if there was a person of ambiguous looking gender who suddenly went into either the men's or the women's room, that would have settled the question. "Oh, they are female.They just went into the ladies room."

But now, if a masculine looking person walks into the women's room, they are likely to be questioned. Some of them quite innocently, maybe a girl who just likes a pixie cut and happened to be wearing a hoodie and jeans that day.

But from the trannie perspective, they are just collateral damage. Yet another example of the incredible unfairness brought about by the whole "guys can be girls if they say so" movement.

I agree. But they didn't rape her because they were trans (he was actually non-binary). He raped her because it was an abusive relationship.




I doubt anyone was hooking up in a bathroom with traffic. That was the point of picking that bathroom, it wasn't one that was commonly used.




I think it accomplishes fairness just fine. People just need to get over themselves.

So no matter how horrific the consequences of deep boys in the girl's bathroom policy, it must be defended.

Except she didn't get a pass. She was punished.

He never identified as she. The so called punishment he got from the district was to be moved to another school so that he could rape another girl. In that case, it was the cover up that mattered, not transgender policy.

Is legal punishment for the two rapes was supervised probation until his eighteenth birthday, at which time all records were sealed, and he is a completely free man.

Odds of him raping another girl?

 

[EvilCat Breath]

Then let me ask about my definition of "transgender" for the purpose of this thread:

A transgender person or a person with transgenderism is a person who was born biologically one sex and who is in reality a person of the opposite sex.

Do you believe that is real?

Of course not. Transgenderism is another iteration of Body Integrity identity Disorder or Body Integrity Dysphoria. A person born with a healthy body who believes they were born in the wrong body. They see themselves as missing a limb, or deaf, or blind, or paralyzed.

BIID (Body Integrity Identity Disorder)

BIID is a mental health condition where you don’t feel a healthy limb is part of your body. Learn more about what causes it and treatment options.

my.clevelandclinic.org

To follow your reasoning, a person born into a healthy body who is in reality a person born profoundly disabled.

Both are products of mental illness.

 

[Seymour Flops]

Of course not. Transgenderism is another iteration of Body Integrity identity Disorder or Body Integrity Dysphoria. A person born with a healthy body who believes they were born in the wrong body. They see themselves as missing a limb, or deaf, or blind, or paralyzed.

BIID (Body Integrity Identity Disorder)

BIID is a mental health condition where you don’t feel a healthy limb is part of your body. Learn more about what causes it and treatment options.

my.clevelandclinic.org

To follow your reasoning, a person born into a healthy body who is in reality a person born profoundly disabled.

Both are products of mental illness.

Agreed except that is not my logic. That is the logic of people who believe that "transgender" is a real thing.

I'm asking them to defend it. while I have had some interesting discussions, no one has actually defended the idea that "transgender" is real.

 

[martybegan]

Sure it is.

Especially when stuff like THIS happens.

Two Cis Women Kicked Out of a Boston Hotel Bathroom After One Was Ordered to "Prove" Sex

The hotel says it has suspended the security guard responsible and will conduct mandatory retraining for all staff on inclusive protocols.

www.them.us

Lesbian teen cornered by server in bathroom and forced to prove gender files charges

<p>Gerika Mudra, 18, says a Buffalo Wild Wings waiter made her show her breasts to prove she could use the women's restroom. </p>

www.advocate.com

Well, it didn't happen that way. The Girl and the boy involved had a previous sexual relationship and had hooked up in that bathroom many times because they knew the teachers weren't watching. This was a case of relationship abuse, and that's bad, but it isn't what the haters portrayed it as.

Blame that on the left not being able to draw lines and say "guys with a beard and still with a penis shouldn't use ladies facilities"

You guys took on the fetishists and perverts into the tent and wonder why people are pissed off.

 

[EvilCat Breath]

Agreed except that is not my logic. That is the logic of people who believe that "transgender" is a real thing.
At
I'm asking them to defend it. while I have had snteresting discussions, no one has actually defended the idea that "transgender" is real.ies

Transgenderism is a real thing. It is a dangerous mental illness related to numerous other mental illnesses. BIID, Anexoria in which a person believes their real body is fat. This includes Cotard's Syndrome in which the real body is dead. While these types of e illnesses are harmless to others when confined to the sufferer, they become hugely harmful when monetized as transgenderism has become a cash cow. It satisfies the worst kind of perversions by ensnaring children and makes a fortune for those twisted enough to mutilate children for nothing but money

Imagine a school separating out a troubled child and saying "maybe you are in the wrong body. Your real body is dead." Professionals will bravely step forward offering to help transition from the old living body to the real dead body. Entire industries could spring up helping children with their authentic truth.

 

[Dogmaphobe]

Transgenderism is a real thing. It is a dangerous mental illness related to numerous other mental illnesses. BIID, Anexoria in which a person believes their real body is fat. This includes Cotard's Syndrome in which the real body is dead. While these types of e illnesses are harmless to others when confined to the sufferer, they become hugely harmful when monetized as transgenderism has become a cash cow. It satisfies the worst kind of perversions by ensnaring children and makes a fortune for those twisted enough to mutilate children for nothing but money

Imagine a school separating out a troubled child and saying "maybe you are in the wrong body. Your real body is dead." Professionals will bravely step forward offering to help transition from the old living body to the real dead body. Entire industries could spring up helping children with their authentic truth.

The level of cluster B personality disorder among Transgenders is off the charts. Especially for Narcissistic personality disorder and Histrionic personality disorder, when children seeking attention are met with virtue signaling adults, early questions about their gender are now being met with such love and support that it acts like heroin to a junkie with these kids. That is why it has exploded in recent years.