Zone1 Let's Debate: Is "Transgender" a Valid Concept based in Reality?

[Seymour Flops]

Such a debate will have to start with definining the word "transgender." That is often the beginning and the rather abrupt end of such debates. So, I will propose a definition for us to have the debate about:

A transgender person or a person with transgenderism is a person who was born biologically one sex and who is in reality a person of the opposite sex.

If you have another definition, I am happy to debate whether that is the best definition and whether "transgender" is real under your definition.

My one rule is that the various medical conditions that fall under the layperson's term "intersex" not be part of the debate.

 

[JoeB131]

Okay,

https://www.apa.org/topics/lgbtq/transgender-people-gender-identity-gender-expression

Transgender is an umbrella term for persons whose gender identity, gender expression or behavior does not conform to that typically associated with the sex to which they were assigned at birth. Gender identity refers to a person’s internal sense of being male, female or something else; gender expression refers to the way a person communicates gender identity to others through behavior, clothing, hairstyles, voice or body characteristics. “Trans” is sometimes used as shorthand for “transgender.” While transgender is generally a good term to use, not everyone whose appearance or behavior is gender-nonconforming will identify as a transgender person. The ways that transgender people are talked about in popular culture, academia and science are constantly changing, particularly as individuals’ awareness, knowledge and openness about transgender people and their experiences grow.

Sex is assigned at birth, refers to one’s biological status as either male or female, and is associated primarily with physical attributes such as chromosomes, hormone prevalence, and external and internal anatomy. Gender refers to the socially constructed roles, behaviors, activities, and attributes that a given society considers appropriate for boys and men or girls and women. These influence the ways that people act, interact, and feel about themselves. While aspects of biological sex are similar across different cultures, aspects of gender may differ.

 

[Senior]

"Transgender" is an umbrella term.

What Is Transgender?

Understand the basics of transgender identity. Learn about the spectrum of gender expression, common terminology, and resources for health and support.

www.webmd.com

 

[1srelluc]

It's a mental derangement....End of "debate".

 

[Seymour Flops]

Okay,

https://www.apa.org/topics/lgbtq/transgender-people-gender-identity-gender-expression

Transgender is an umbrella term for persons whose gender identity, gender expression or behavior does not conform to that typically associated with the sex to which they were assigned at birth. Gender identity refers to a person’s internal sense of being male, female or something else; gender expression refers to the way a person communicates gender identity to others through behavior, clothing, hairstyles, voice or body characteristics. “Trans” is sometimes used as shorthand for “transgender.” While transgender is generally a good term to use, not everyone whose appearance or behavior is gender-nonconforming will identify as a transgender person. The ways that transgender people are talked about in popular culture, academia and science are constantly changing, particularly as individuals’ awareness, knowledge and openness about transgender people and their experiences grow.

Sex is assigned at birth, refers to one’s biological status as either male or female, and is associated primarily with physical attributes such as chromosomes, hormone prevalence, and external and internal anatomy. Gender refers to the socially constructed roles, behaviors, activities, and attributes that a given society considers appropriate for boys and men or girls and women. These influence the ways that people act, interact, and feel about themselves. While aspects of biological sex are similar across different cultures, aspects of gender may differ.

So you prefer a different definition of "transgender" than mine?

Good. My definition indicates that transgender is something not at all based in reality as far as I have seen. But it appears to be the definition that most supporters of transgender right believe.

Sex is not "assigned" at birth, it is the reality at birth. The doctor need not "assign" a girl baby the female sex, nor a boy baby the male sex, anymore than they need assign them two arms, one nose, etc. The penis or the vagina, along with less visible sex characteristics are not assigned by the OB/GYN, but exist at birth and cannot be changed by social constructs.

No person born a male ever becomes - in reality - a female. No person born a female ever becomes - in reality - a male.

The roles, behaviors, activities, and attributes considered appropriate to each sex are of course socially constructed, just as you say. Biology is not.

A little girl who expresses a desire to grow up to drive a big rig while her two older sisters have both said they want to be mommies when they grow up may be something of an outlier socially speaking. But she is certainly not in need of medical "treatment" or to use the boys' bathroom when she starts Kinder.

 

[Seymour Flops]

"Transgender" is an umbrella term.

What Is Transgender?

Understand the basics of transgender identity. Learn about the spectrum of gender expression, common terminology, and resources for health and support.

www.webmd.com

Is there a definition that you can defend as being based in reality?

 

[JoeB131]

It's a mental derangement....End of "debate".

How is it a mental derangement?

Because they don't conform to gender roles society has assigned to them?

Is there a definition that you can defend as being based in reality?

I already did.

Here's the problem. Most of what I hear about your opposition to transgenders comes from your own insecurities.

If they aren't bothering me, I don't really care.

 

[Senior]

Is there a definition that you can defend as being based in reality?

An "unbrella" term is just that. Transgenderism is many-faceted and one definition does not describe or encompass all facets.

 

[Seymour Flops]

I already did.

(provide a definition that you can defend as being based in reality?)

Yes, you did, and I acknowledged it. My question was to Senior.

There seems to be as many definitions of "transgender" as there are people who support the idea that "transgender" is real.

Here's the problem. Most of what I hear about your opposition to transgenders comes from your own insecurities.

That is a personal attack, not an argument. I'm not offended, but I just want you to know, in case you thought that it was an argument.

If they aren't bothering me, I don't really care.

That may be true of "transgender" individuals specifically. But I doubt that is a blanket policy you apply to all people.

For example, neither the "transgender" wrestler discussed on another thread, nor the girl he is accused of molesting, are bothering you, but you commented several times on that thread.

 

[Seymour Flops]

An "unbrella" term is just that. Transgenderism is many-faceted and one definition does not describe or encompass all facets.

Then let me ask about my definition of "transgender" for the purpose of this thread:

A transgender person or a person with transgenderism is a person who was born biologically one sex and who is in reality a person of the opposite sex.

Do you believe that is real?

 

[Seymour Flops]

It's a mental derangement....End of "debate".

I believe that - in reality - what people call "transgender" is a spectrum that could range for example from a girl who enjoys wearing her older brothers' clothes, joins them in playing football and "playing Army" and has to be forced by her mom to put on a dress for church all the way to a girl who wears exclusively boys' clothes and what she perceives as a male haircut, alters her name to a male version (i.e. Erin to Aaron, Frances to Frank), and suffers from dibilitating depression, bi-polar traits, and anger issues that she attributes to being "assigned the wrong sex" at birth.

When it gets to that extreme end of the specturm, it is the mental illness of Gender Dysphoria. But it is not in realty being born in the "wrong body." It is a refusal to accept the body she was born in.

 

[alang1216]

Such a debate will have to start with definining the word "transgender."

No, such a debate will have to start with defining the word "valid". Who gets to determine what is valid, yourself or others? What is valid for me is called personal freedom and, so long as it doesn't adversely affect others, that should be the end of the discussion.

 

[Seymour Flops]

No, such a debate will have to start with defining the word "valid". Who gets to determine what is valid, yourself or others?

I am going by the well-established dictionary definition of "valid:"

The word valid is an adjective that describes something founded on truth, logic, or well-grounded facts. In a broader sense, it means an argument, reason, or document is acceptable, defensible, and meets all official or logical requirements. [1, 2, 3]

So it is not about the definition of "valid," but I agree that it often is about who gets to determine what is valid. On this thread, we can each make our arguments about whether transgenderism is valid or not.

What is valid for me is called personal freedom and, so long as it doesn't adversely affect others, that should be the end of the discussion.

Sure, I agree with that.

It is different now than it was years ago. "Transgender" people and their allies now insist on adversely affecting others and that the others must be accepting and even supportive of these adverse effects or be accused of having a mental illness called "transphobia."

We have had transexuals and transvestites since the seventies and they rarely adversely affected others outside of friends and family. They got their hormones and surgeries, or not. They told people their true sex or not. They figured out their own desires for romance and how to fulfill them. They tried to "pass" as women or men so no one noticed them going into their chosen bathrooms.

They were not attention whores, to put it succinctly.

We have had forms of crossdressing probably since very shortly after each tribe of primitive humans starting assigning different manners of dress to the two sexes. No harm no foul.

This is different.

 

[Darkwind]

A transgender person or a person with transgenderism is a person who was born biologically one sex and who is in reality a person of the opposite sex.

No. I reject your definition.


A transgender person or person with transgenderism is a person suffering a significant mental health break from reality and needs a compassionate treatment program to bring them back to reality.

That is the ONLY definition I will accept.

 

[luiza]

who is in reality a person of the opposite sex.

Whose reality?
Defined by whom?
On what authority?

Sloppy .

 

[Seymour Flops]

Whose reality?
Defined by whom?
On what authority?

Sloppy .

Reality exists outside of any individual's attempt to define it away.

No. I reject your definition.


A transgender person or person with transgenderism is a person suffering a significant mental health break from reality and needs a compassionate treatment program to bring them back to reality.

That is the ONLY definition I will accept.

A valid way to look at it, but not the way I look at it.

I would agree if you would change that to "a person claiming to be 'transgender' is a person suffering a significant mental health break from reality and needs a compassionate treatment program to bring them back to reality.

To me that is like saying "a unicorn is a person suffering a significant mental health break from reality and needs a compassionate treatment program to bring them back to reality."

A unicorn is a mythical and non-existent fiction, regardless of how many people "identify" as unicorns.

 

[luiza]

Reality exists outside of any individual's attempt to define it away.

Which of course is Gibberish unless there is a scientific consensus accurately defining the idea and somehow listing its properties /values / detailed identity .