Zone1 Let's Debate: Is "Transgender" a Valid Concept based in Reality?

[Seymour Flops]

As an older person I do not agree with YOUR definition! "A transgender person or a person with transgenderism is a person who was born biologically one sex and
who is in reality a person of the opposite sex. Reality is what you are born as!!! That is 'reality' and not some 'chosen' thing!!

Of course you are always the sex you are born as.

I disagree that "transgender" is a real human condition. The definition is not really in dispute.

People who claim that "transgender" is real say things like "transwomen are real women," and "all girls should be welcome in girls' sports" (meaning "all girls, including boys").

So the definition I gave is indeed their definition.

 

[Seymour Flops]

Fill us in on your medical vitae. Surely you possess a M.D. or a D.O. degree?

No, and neither do you.

I do have an M.S. in Ed Psych and another M.S. in Special Education. I have more than two decades working with students who are on the Autism Spectrum, Emotionally Disturbed, or often both.

Those groups are among the most over-identified by school counselors and LSSP'S as "transgender."

And your qualifications?

 

[Hafar1014]

Such a debate will have to start with definining the word "transgender." That is often the beginning and the rather abrupt end of such debates. So, I will propose a definition for us to have the debate about:

A transgender person or a person with transgenderism is a person who was born biologically one sex and who is in reality a person of the opposite sex.

If you have another definition, I am happy to debate whether that is the best definition and whether "transgender" is real under your definition.

My one rule is that the various medical conditions that fall under the layperson's term "intersex" not be part of the debate.

The correct term is gender dysphoria a psychological not physical condition. There are only 2 genders that cant be changed. Male or female. Rapid onset Gender dysphoria is a socially contagious mental disorder spread like anorexia. It attracts those with premorbid emotional disturbances or personality disorders so it can be seen a symptom of a co occuring mental illness. When the government support was opposed and stopped in many ways the number identifying as trans dropped 60% in one year. Its spread though media.
Those who support this disorder are experiencing toxic empathy and acting muck like Munchausen's by Proxy. Enabling an illness then acting as the savior.
Characteristics are delusional thinking, attention seeking, denial, anger, depression and anxiety, gay in denial, sexual trauma, and autism.

 

[Hafar1014]

Whats the difference between transgender transvestite and transsexual? Is every tomboy female a transgender?

Trans gender is mental disorder Gender dysphoria.
Transvestitism is man who dresses as women for sexual gratification. He knowns he is a man.
Transsexual is a person who has had surgery to alter secondary sexual characteristics. Gender remains the same.

So called tomboys are not trans gender

 

[Hafar1014]

Which of course is Gibberish unless there is a scientific consensus accurately defining the idea and somehow listing its properties /values / detailed identity .

Scientifically its a mental illness

 

[Hafar1014]

Whose reality?
Defined by whom?
On what authority?

Sloppy .

Chromosomes define reality one is either male or female not both and they cant be changed. If you believe they can then explain in derail how a man becomes woman biologically inherently in reality. Put up or shut up

 

[Hafar1014]

No, such a debate will have to start with defining the word "valid". Who gets to determine what is valid, yourself or others? What is valid for me is called personal freedom and, so long as it doesn't adversely affect others, that should be the end of the discussion.

Scientific fact by valid research defines reality.

Long-Term Follow-Up of Transsexual Persons Undergoing Sex Reassignment Surgery: Cohort Study in Sweden - PMC

The treatment for transsexualism is sex reassignment, including hormonal treatment and surgery aimed at making the person's body as congruent with the opposite sex as possible. There is a dearth of long term, follow-up studies after sex ...

pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

Results​

The overall mortality for sex-reassigned persons was higher during follow-up (aHR 2.8; 95% CI 1.8–4.3) than for controls of the same birth sex, particularly death from suicide (aHR 19.1; 95% CI 5.8–62.9). Sex-reassigned persons also had an increased risk for suicide attempts (aHR 4.9; 95% CI 2.9–8.5) and psychiatric inpatient care (aHR 2.8; 95% CI 2.0–3.9). Comparisons with controls matched on reassigned sex yielded similar results. Female-to-males, but not male-to-females, had a higher risk for criminal convictions than their respective birth sex controls.

Conclusions​

Persons with transsexualism, after sex reassignment, have considerably higher risks for mortality, suicidal behaviour, and psychiatric morbidity than the general population. Our findings suggest that sex reassignment, although alleviating gender dysphoria, may not suffice as treatment for transsexualism, and should inspire improved psychiatric and somatic care after sex reassignment for this patient group.

 

[Hafar1014]

Its

How is it a mental derangement?

Because they don't conform to gender roles society has assigned to them?


I already did.

Here's the problem. Most of what I hear about your opposition to transgenders comes from your own insecurities.

If they aren't bothering me, I don't really care.

delusional thinking because biology cant be changed.

Psychiatric Diagnoses and Comorbidities in a Diverse, Multicity Cohort of Young Transgender Women: Baseline Findings From Project Life Skills - PMC

Transgender youth, including adolescent and young adult transgender women assigned a male sex at birth who identify as girls, women, transgender women, transfemale, male-to-female, or another diverse transfeminine gender identity, represent a ...

pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

RESULTS​

Of the 298 transgender women, 41.5%of participants had 1 or more mental health or substance dependence diagnoses; 1 in 5 (20.1%) had 2 or more comorbid psychiatric diagnoses. Prevalence of specific disorders was as follows: lifetime and current major depressive episode, 35.4%and 14.7%, respectively; suicidality, 20.2%; generalized anxiety disorder, 7.9%; posttraumatic stress disorder, 9.8%; alcohol dependence, 11.2%; and nonalcohol psychoactive substance use dependence, 15.2%.

CONCLUSIONS AND RELEVANCE​

Prevalence of psychiatric diagnoses was high in this community-recruited sample of young transgender women. Improving access to routine primary care, diagnostic screening, psychotherapy, and pharmacologic treatments, and retention in care in clinical community-based, pediatric, and adolescent medicine settings are urgently needed to address mental health and substance dependence disorders in this population. Further research will be critical, particularly longitudinal studies across development, to understand ri

Long-Term Follow-Up of Transsexual Persons Undergoing Sex Reassignment Surgery: Cohort Study in Sweden - PMC

The treatment for transsexualism is sex reassignment, including hormonal treatment and surgery aimed at making the person's body as congruent with the opposite sex as possible. There is a dearth of long term, follow-up studies after sex ...

pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

Results​

The overall mortality for sex-reassigned persons was higher during follow-up (aHR 2.8; 95% CI 1.8–4.3) than for controls of the same birth sex, particularly death from suicide (aHR 19.1; 95% CI 5.8–62.9). Sex-reassigned persons also had an increased risk for suicide attempts (aHR 4.9; 95% CI 2.9–8.5) and psychiatric inpatient care (aHR 2.8; 95% CI 2.0–3.9). Comparisons with controls matched on reassigned sex yielded similar results. Female-to-males, but not male-to-females, had a higher risk for criminal convictions than their respective birth sex controls.

Conclusions​

Persons with transsexualism, after sex reassignment, have considerably higher risks for mortality, suicidal behaviour, and psychiatric morbidity than the general population. Our findings suggest that sex reassignment, although alleviating gender dysphoria, may not suffice as treatment for transsexualism, and should inspire improved psychiatric and somatic care after sex reassignment for this patient group.

 

[Stryder50]

Okay,

https://www.apa.org/topics/lgbtq/transgender-people-gender-identity-gender-expression

Transgender is an umbrella term for persons whose gender identity, gender expression or behavior does not conform to that typically associated with the sex to which they were assigned at birth. Gender identity refers to a person’s internal sense of being male, female or something else; gender expression refers to the way a person communicates gender identity to others through behavior, clothing, hairstyles, voice or body characteristics. “Trans” is sometimes used as shorthand for “transgender.” While transgender is generally a good term to use, not everyone whose appearance or behavior is gender-nonconforming will identify as a transgender person. The ways that transgender people are talked about in popular culture, academia and science are constantly changing, particularly as individuals’ awareness, knowledge and openness about transgender people and their experiences grow.

Sex is assigned at birth, refers to one’s biological status as either male or female, and is associated primarily with physical attributes such as chromosomes, hormone prevalence, and external and internal anatomy. Gender refers to the socially constructed roles, behaviors, activities, and attributes that a given society considers appropriate for boys and men or girls and women. These influence the ways that people act, interact, and feel about themselves. While aspects of biological sex are similar across different cultures, aspects of gender may differ.

Psycho-babble to scam money and appear politically correct.

Sex isn't "assigned" it is biologically set in the fetus when sperm and egg co-join. Egg always has an "X"=female gene; sperm can have either the "X" or a "Y"=male gene.
XX=female
XY = male

Genitals and brain are the first two organs to form in a fetus because the two combinations result in two different brain patterns/structures.
Nominally, a female fetus will develop a female brain and a male fetus will develop a male brain. This is the first part of sexual development. A second/final stage occurs in puberty which includes the hypothalamus in conjunction with ample hormone of appropriate/matching type finishes the body's physical development into a male or female, AND the sexual orientation (desire focus).

Nominally Nature's basic(default) pattern in all species, flora and fauna, is female = X. The presence of Y triggers/signals to make the changes/alterations/"mutations" of female into male. At puberty this means that usually the presence of testosterone will flip the sexual orientation of the hypothalamus from attracted to male, to attracted to female. Usually. Sometimes a glitch in the genes, or insufficient testosterone at critical time fails to flip the 'switch' and a male body will retain the natural female attraction to males.

REAL, i.e. biological "transgender" is actually a misfire or mutation of the natural process. Were medical science to know more and have the basic resources needed, such "misfire" could be detected early enough to assist the intended completion.

This book is a classic for describing the process and is rather slim volume, easy read.

Brain Sex: The Real Difference Between Men and Women​

by Anne Moir (Author), David Jessel (Author)

Why can't a woman be more like a man? What is this thing called "feminine intuition"? Why are men better at reading maps, and women at other people's characters? The answers lie in the basic biological differences between the male and female brain, which, say the authors, make it impossible for the sexes to share equal emotional or intellectual qualities.

https://www.amazon.com/Brain-Sex-Difference-Between-Women/dp/0385311834?tag=usmb-20

 

[Seymour Flops]

Scientific fact by valid research defines reality.

Long-Term Follow-Up of Transsexual Persons Undergoing Sex Reassignment Surgery: Cohort Study in Sweden - PMC

The treatment for transsexualism is sex reassignment, including hormonal treatment and surgery aimed at making the person's body as congruent with the opposite sex as possible. There is a dearth of long term, follow-up studies after sex ...

pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

Results​

The overall mortality for sex-reassigned persons was higher during follow-up (aHR 2.8; 95% CI 1.8–4.3) than for controls of the same birth sex, particularly death from suicide (aHR 19.1; 95% CI 5.8–62.9). Sex-reassigned persons also had an increased risk for suicide attempts (aHR 4.9; 95% CI 2.9–8.5) and psychiatric inpatient care (aHR 2.8; 95% CI 2.0–3.9). Comparisons with controls matched on reassigned sex yielded similar results. Female-to-males, but not male-to-females, had a higher risk for criminal convictions than their respective birth sex controls.

Conclusions​

Persons with transsexualism, after sex reassignment, have considerably higher risks for mortality, suicidal behaviour, and psychiatric morbidity than the general population. Our findings suggest that sex reassignment, although alleviating gender dysphoria, may not suffice as treatment for transsexualism, and should inspire improved psychiatric and somatic care after sex reassignment for this patient group.

All that is horrible.

Add to that the lifelong financial expense of maintaining hormones and surgeries.

Of course, the "transgender community" doesn't see it as an expense. Nor do they need to. Why not?

The high unemployment rate among "transgender" people means that we - not they - pay for their "treatment" through medicare.

For those who are employed or self employed, Obamacare and Obamacare-compliant health policies cover the "treatment."

For the mental health and medical "professionals" it is profit, not expense, so they are motivated to recruit and retain these human ATM's.

 

[Hafar1014]

All that is horrible.

Add to that the lifelong financial expense of maintaining hormones and surgeries.

Of course, the "transgender community" doesn't see it as an expense. Nor do they need to. Why not?

The high unemployment rate among "transgender" people means that we - not they - pay for their "treatment" through medicare.

For those who are employed or self employed, Obamacare and Obamacare-compliant health policies cover the "treatment."

For the mental health and medical "professionals" it is profit, not expense, so they are motivated to recruit and retain these human ATM's.

Treatment is being stopped all over the country

 

[alang1216]

Scientific fact by valid research defines reality.

Long-Term Follow-Up of Transsexual Persons Undergoing Sex Reassignment Surgery: Cohort Study in Sweden - PMC

The treatment for transsexualism is sex reassignment, including hormonal treatment and surgery aimed at making the person's body as congruent with the opposite sex as possible. There is a dearth of long term, follow-up studies after sex ...

pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

Results​

The overall mortality for sex-reassigned persons was higher during follow-up (aHR 2.8; 95% CI 1.8–4.3) than for controls of the same birth sex, particularly death from suicide (aHR 19.1; 95% CI 5.8–62.9). Sex-reassigned persons also had an increased risk for suicide attempts (aHR 4.9; 95% CI 2.9–8.5) and psychiatric inpatient care (aHR 2.8; 95% CI 2.0–3.9). Comparisons with controls matched on reassigned sex yielded similar results. Female-to-males, but not male-to-females, had a higher risk for criminal convictions than their respective birth sex controls.

Conclusions​

Persons with transsexualism, after sex reassignment, have considerably higher risks for mortality, suicidal behaviour, and psychiatric morbidity than the general population. Our findings suggest that sex reassignment, although alleviating gender dysphoria, may not suffice as treatment for transsexualism, and should inspire improved psychiatric and somatic care after sex reassignment for this patient group.

Not sure what you point is but I did see: sex reassignment, although alleviating gender dysphoria, may not suffice as treatment for transsexualism.

Do persons with transsexualism, after sex reassignment, have considerably higher risks for mortality, suicidal behaviour, and psychiatric morbidity than persons with transsexualism, who don't have sex reassignment?

 

[alang1216]

Walking around assuming people will guess whatever gender you are pretending to be and then going nuts when they don't adversely affects people not willing to go along with it.

Not sure who is the bigger ass in your scenario.

Boys taking spots and wins in women's sports adversely affects others.

Only affect those in the women's sport so they should get to decide, not me and not you.

Drugging and mutilating minors over all this affects the people in question and society as a whole.

On medical issues I would lean on medical professionals parents to do what is best for the child. Ideology should no come into play.

 

[sartre play]

Fair enough, we are not that far apart.

If I did not have my own definition, I would be comfortable with yours.

Not sure who is the bigger ass in your scenario.


Only affect those in the women's sport so they should get to decide, not me and not you.


On medical issues I would lean on medical professionals parents to do what is best for the child. Ideology should no come into play.

NO medical degrees, special knowledge. Just disagree with HATE for people who are different than me.
Hate is not healthy.

 

[martybegan]

Not sure who is the bigger ass in your scenario.


Only affect those in the women's sport so they should get to decide, not me and not you.


On medical issues I would lean on medical professionals parents to do what is best for the child. Ideology should no come into play.

Non response noted.

Deflection noted.

Deflection noted.

 

[Oklahoma Journalist]

No such thing as “gender.” Start with that.

 

[JoeB131]

When the government support was opposed and stopped in many ways the number identifying as trans dropped 60% in one year.

They stopped identifying that way because the government was mistreating them. Kind of like less people in Germany wore Yamulkes when the Nazis came to power.

The overall mortality for sex-reassigned persons was higher during follow-up (aHR 2.8; 95% CI 1.8–4.3) than for controls of the same birth sex, particularly death from suicide (aHR 19.1; 95% CI 5.8–62.9). Sex-reassigned persons also had an increased risk for suicide attempts (aHR 4.9; 95% CI 2.9–8.5) and psychiatric inpatient care (aHR 2.8; 95% CI 2.0–3.9). Comparisons with controls matched on reassigned sex yielded similar results. Female-to-males, but not male-to-females, had a higher risk for criminal convictions than their respective birth sex controls.

Wow, this is dishonest.

It's like saying more people die of cancer who get Chemo compared to people who have never been diagnosed with cancer and gotten Chemo.

An accurate comparison would be transgender people who get GAC vs. those who do not. They've done those studies, and no surprise, the people who get GAC are less likely to have suicidal ideation.

 

[Frankeneinstein]

Or maybe they realized that "I think it's icky" and "God says it's bad" aren't good enough reasons to call it a mental illness.

science eh JoeBob

they will find the same with gender identity.

but for now they are sticking with "icky" and "god thinks it's bad"?

 

[Seymour Flops]

NO medical degrees, special knowledge. Just disagree with HATE for people who are different than me.
Hate is not healthy.

What are your medical degrees?

 

[Seymour Flops]

An accurate comparison would be transgender people who get GAC vs. those who do not. They've done those studies, and no surprise, the people who get GAC are less likely to have suicidal ideation.

"Suicidal ideation" = self-reported feelings from people who know exactly what the poll is looking for.

When actual suicides are measured, people who have had "gender-affirming care are no less likely to take the easy way out than people who have not.