Zone1 Let's Debate: Is "Transgender" a Valid Concept based in Reality?

[skews13]

Such a debate will have to start with definining the word "transgender." That is often the beginning and the rather abrupt end of such debates. So, I will propose a definition for us to have the debate about:

A transgender person or a person with transgenderism is a person who was born biologically one sex and who is in reality a person of the opposite sex.

If you have another definition, I am happy to debate whether that is the best definition and whether "transgender" is real under your definition.

My one rule is that the various medical conditions that fall under the layperson's term "intersex" not be part of the debate.

The conversation has to start with you coming out of the closet.

 

[Seymour Flops]

The conversation has to start with you coming out of the closet.

Clean Debate Zone, poster.

 

[DukeU]

Seriously? They cannot even define what a woman is

That's an "umbrella" term too.

 

[JoeB131]

"Suicidal ideation" = self-reported feelings from people who know exactly what the poll is looking for.

When actual suicides are measured, people who have had "gender-affirming care are no less likely to take the easy way out than people who have not.

You're losing the plot.

Obviously, they can't poll people who committed suicide, because they're dead.

The poll measured suicidal ideation- who has thought about it, and people who get GAC are less likely to think about it because their bodies more closely allign with their brains.

 

[Seymour Flops]

You're losing the plot.

Obviously, they can't poll people who committed suicide, because they're dead.

The poll measured suicidal ideation- who has thought about it, and people who get GAC are less likely to think about it because their bodies more closely allign with their brains.

Suicides can be reported and recorded.

You are not seriously claiming that no data can ever be taken on suicides?

Actually . . . you are.

Just wow.

 

[JoeB131]

Suicides can be reported and recorded.

You are not seriously claiming that no data can ever be taken on suicides?

Actually . . . you are.

Just wow.

The fact that you guys compare transgender to cisgender instead of trans with GAC to those without is telling.

Everything on this thread isn't about the trangender community, it's about how they make you uncomfortable

You don't want to use their pronouns
you don't want them using the bathroom of their choice
etc.

And it's always about the transfeminine folks, not the transmasculine

 

[Seymour Flops]

The fact that you guys compare transgender to cisgender instead of trans with GAC to those without is telling.

I don't.

Studies comparing the suicide rates between "transgenders" who get hormones and surgery to those who do not consistently show either no difference or slight increase in suicides among those who have the treatment.

The transactivists did not like those results. So they started using surveys instead of collecting data on actual events.

Everything on this thread isn't about the trangender community, it's about how they make you uncomfortable

Personal attack not an argument.

You don't want to use their pronouns
you don't want them using the bathroom of their choice
etc.

I don't want grown males or teenage boys going into female private spaces.

And it's always about the transfeminine folks, not the transmasculine

They are the bigger danger.But I object to giving either one of them special privileges to the detriment of others.

 

[playtime]

transgenderism isn't about sexual desire or sexual identity, it's about sex identity.

And barring genetic or developmental defects, it's a binary solution set that cannot be changed.

sexual identity is what i said, because that is what i meant.

a person who was born a bio male, transitions to female, but is a lesbian.

that makes the body secondary & the brain is the origin.

 

[marvin martian]

Such a debate will have to start with definining the word "transgender." That is often the beginning and the rather abrupt end of such debates. So, I will propose a definition for us to have the debate about:

A transgender person or a person with transgenderism is a person who was born biologically one sex and who is in reality a person of the opposite sex.

If you have another definition, I am happy to debate whether that is the best definition and whether "transgender" is real under your definition.

My one rule is that the various medical conditions that fall under the layperson's term "intersex" not be part of the debate.

It's a valid mental illness.

Anyone treating it otherwise is doing harm.

 

[JoeB131]

I don't.

Studies comparing the suicide rates between "transgenders" who get hormones and surgery to those who do not consistently show either no difference or slight increase in suicides among those who have the treatment.

Access to gender-affirming care associated with lower suicide risk for transgender people

williamsinstitute.law.ucla.edu

Risk of Suicide and Self-Harm Following Gender-Affirmation Surgery - PMC

Introduction With the growing acceptance of transgender individuals, the number of gender affirmation surgeries has increased. Transgender individuals face elevated depression rates, leading to an increase in suicide ideation and attempts. This ...

pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

The Impact of Gender-Affirming Care on Suicide Rates

Discover how gender-affirming care reduces suicide rates amongst many transgender and non-binary people alongside limitations to research.

www.genderconfirmation.com

A review of 53 peer-reviewed studies demonstrates that rates of anxiety, depression, self-harm gender dysphoria and suicide risk all tend to decrease notably following surgery for those who need it. This is precisely why gender-affirming surgery are considered medically necessary for many patients.

Generally speaking, accessing good quality gender-affirming surgery is associated with a lower risk of suicide attempts–not to mention, a lowered chance of suicidality, psychological distress and smoking. That said, gender-affirming surgery is not a silver bullet for all trans people’s negative mental health outcomes. Harsh realities like discrimination, harassment and other minority stressors may prevent all quality of life measurements from improving for every individual.

They are the bigger danger.But I object to giving either one of them special privileges to the detriment of others.

HOw are they a danger, exactly?

How are they getting special privileges by being able to do what you and I take for granted?

 

[Seymour Flops]

Access to gender-affirming care associated with lower suicide risk for transgender people

williamsinstitute.law.ucla.edu

Risk of Suicide and Self-Harm Following Gender-Affirmation Surgery - PMC

Introduction With the growing acceptance of transgender individuals, the number of gender affirmation surgeries has increased. Transgender individuals face elevated depression rates, leading to an increase in suicide ideation and attempts. This ...

pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

The Impact of Gender-Affirming Care on Suicide Rates

Discover how gender-affirming care reduces suicide rates amongst many transgender and non-binary people alongside limitations to research.

www.genderconfirmation.com

A review of 53 peer-reviewed studies demonstrates that rates of anxiety, depression, self-harm gender dysphoria and suicide risk all tend to decrease notably following surgery for those who need it. This is precisely why gender-affirming surgery are considered medically necessary for many patients.

Generally speaking, accessing good quality gender-affirming surgery is associated with a lower risk of suicide attempts–not to mention, a lowered chance of suicidality, psychological distress and smoking. That said, gender-affirming surgery is not a silver bullet for all trans people’s negative mental health outcomes. Harsh realities like discrimination, harassment and other minority stressors may prevent all quality of life measurements from improving for every individual.

I am very surprised that you would cite WPATH.

Have you not heard of the WPATH Files?

https://wpath.org/wp-content/uploads/2024/11/17.05.24-Response-Cass-Review-FINAL-with-ed-note.pdf

Try reading the CASS Review for yourself:

WPATH files

Recently released documentation of internal discussions between members of the World Professional Association for Transgender Health, including authors of WPATH’s Standards of Care, reveal pr…

can-sg.org

The studies you cite purport to measure anxiety, depression, self-harm gender dysphoria and suicide risk. They do not measure actual suicides. Studies that do show no difference or a slightly greater risk to people who have had the hormones and surgery.

So when the doctors, or counselors, or other profit-seekers told Chloe Cole's parents that their choice was a live son or a dead daughter, that was a lie.

HOw are they a danger, exactly?

Allowing a grown man or a hormonal teenage boy access to female private spaces is dangerous. Especially if the females are told to go on about their private business as if he were a woman also.

It is humiliating and traumatizing for young girls to be told they must undress in front of a boy or man as a condition of participating in female sports.

Respectfully, I'm surprised that I need to explain that to you.

How are they getting special privileges by being able to do what you and I take for granted?

I or a man who looked exactly like me (Think Elmer Fudd if he worked out more and dressed a little better) would be barred from female private spaces. A man who looked exactly like me, but "identified as a woman" would be allowed in many jurisdictions to enter and remain in female private spaces and anyone who questioned it would be cancelled or otherwise punished.

 

[Chuz Life]

It's a mental derangement....End of "debate".

 

[skews13]

Clean Debate Zone, poster.

That was a clean and legitimate observation.

Nobody, and I mean nobody, brings up the subject of transgenders as often as you do can't possibly not have more than just a passing curiosity.

Nope, your obsession with the issue goes far beyond observations or objections.

Whether or not somebody is a member of that demographic isn't a debate.

Whether or not somebody has their own closeted issues with it is certainly debatable.

At what point past your first 1000 or so posts on the issue did you not think someone would call you into question on your questionable obsession with it?

Let's debate.

 

[Leo123]

Such a debate will have to start with definining the word "transgender." That is often the beginning and the rather abrupt end of such debates. So, I will propose a definition for us to have the debate about:

A transgender person or a person with transgenderism is a person who was born biologically one sex and who is in reality a person of the opposite sex.

If you have another definition, I am happy to debate whether that is the best definition and whether "transgender" is real under your definition.

My one rule is that the various medical conditions that fall under the layperson's term "intersex" not be part of the debate.

Any human thinking they are the opposite sex is mentally ill. This current 'transgenderism' has caused more misery than ever. These people need help to de transition not support for transition.

 

[Leo123]

I know two good long time friends with transgender boys in their family. Both these friends are leftists. Both friends are struggling with their kids' decisions. Both are anti Trumpers and I dare not bring up politics in their presence. I love these friends and it hurts to see them struggling. Of course they still love their transitioned kids but the relationship can never be the same. Having a kid go transgender is like a slap in the face to the parents. Transgender has to be the worst plague supported by loony leftist Democrats.

 

[Chuz Life]

I know two good long time friends with transgender boys in their family. Both these friends are leftists. Both friends are struggling with their kids' decisions. Both are anti Trumpers and I dare not bring up politics in their presence. I love these friends and it hurts to see them struggling. Of course they still love their transitioned kids but the relationship can never be the same. Having a kid go transgender is like a slap in the face to the parents. Transgender has to be the worst plague supported by loony leftist Democrats.

I have close family members who would sooner disown me than I would them over issues like this.

I've tried to reason with them about it in the past, but it got too heated too fast.

More evidence, to me, that it is a mental disorder.

 

[Seymour Flops]

I know two good long time friends with transgender boys in their family. Both these friends are leftists. Both friends are struggling with their kids' decisions. Both are anti Trumpers and I dare not bring up politics in their presence. I love these friends and it hurts to see them struggling. Of course they still love their transitioned kids but the relationship can never be the same. Having a kid go transgender is like a slap in the face to the parents. Transgender has to be the worst plague supported by loony leftist Democrats.

The fact that it causes discord in families for which the "bigotry" of the parents can be blamed is one of the leftist Democrat's favorite parts about the transcam.

 

[Leo123]

The fact that it causes discord in families for which the "bigotry" of the parents can be blamed is one of the leftist Democrat's favorite parts about the transcam.

Good point, they revel in the destruction of a cohesive society and once they are successful, their Marxist dreams of 'we'll so it right this time' will cause death and destruction like it always does.

 

[JoeB131]

I am very surprised that you would cite WPATH.

Have you not heard of the WPATH Files?

Nope, I don't follow Transphobic propaganda and "leaked" documents someone made up.

The studies you cite purport to measure anxiety, depression, self-harm gender dysphoria and suicide risk. They do not measure actual suicides. Studies that do show no difference or a slightly greater risk to people who have had the hormones and surgery.

Yes, they do. People who get GAC are less likely to kill themselves.
If we made life more miserable for the Transphobes who mistreat them, the numbers would be lower still.

Allowing a grown man or a hormonal teenage boy access to female private spaces is dangerous. Especially if the females are told to go on about their private business as if he were a woman also.

How, exactly? Her mere PRESENCE isn't going to do anything. The problem is that you keep working on the assumption that letting a transgender woman in a "private space" is just like letting a cisgendered male into them.

It is humiliating and traumatizing for young girls to be told they must undress in front of a boy or man as a condition of participating in female sports.

Then don't participate in sports.

I or a man who looked exactly like me (Think Elmer Fudd if he worked out more and dressed a little better) would be barred from female private spaces. A man who looked exactly like me, but "identified as a woman" would be allowed in many jurisdictions to enter and remain in female private spaces and anyone who questioned it would be cancelled or otherwise punished.

Again, works on the assumption that people would abuse the privilege like that.

The reality is, most women have probably peed next to a transgender and never even knew it.

 

[SweetSue92]

Such a debate will have to start with definining the word "transgender." That is often the beginning and the rather abrupt end of such debates. So, I will propose a definition for us to have the debate about:

A transgender person or a person with transgenderism is a person who was born biologically one sex and who is in reality a person of the opposite sex.

If you have another definition, I am happy to debate whether that is the best definition and whether "transgender" is real under your definition.

My one rule is that the various medical conditions that fall under the layperson's term "intersex" not be part of the debate.

It's mental illness, no different from an eating disorder, especially anorexia nervosa. In other words, the person is biologically and factually one thing, but in their head, they're another. The anorexic looks in the mirror and, dying of starvation, still thinks she's "fat". The transgender looks in the mirror with full male genitalia and sees a woman.

The difference between the two is only cultural:

Since transgenderism is part of the Left's sex obsession, they're happy to embrace it. Anorexia is not, therefore it's "allowed" to be a mental illness.