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Let me tell you something: Science and Politics

Juicin

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Part of the issue isn't that science says this or that, the problem is that too many people are too quick to judge somebody else for being different in some way. Whether it's genetic, biological, environmental, etc., why is it so hard to accept somebody or whatever or whoever they are, instead of condemning them based on a preconceived notion. Personality an character ought to be more of a deciding factor in how we relate to someone else IMHO.

Your willingness to be open to that sort of thing is a personality trait

You don't understand because you're probably at the end of the "open to new experiences" spectrum

If you deviate too much from the norm most people will have a natural revulsion to it. Have to be pretty open minded to just take everything the few hundred of million of us might do in stride.

I have no conscious* issue with gay marriage or queers doing what they want.

I still cringe away when i see gay PDA tho, my pure conservative soul can't handle it after years of indoctrination and just common behavior
 

TheProgressivePatriot

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It was not long ago that people who thought they were the opposite sex was declared mentally ill by the medical community, as well as those who desired to have sex with their same sex, etc.

I wonder, what scientific breakthrough convinced them it was "normal" and not a disorder?

Anyone?
Not "science" at all. At least not biological science. It is more about enlightenment. Societal Evolution or as I like to say, the evolving standards of human decency
Human decency? I realize the primary goal probably was to make people who have such conditions feel better about themselves, and also to try and curb others from persecuting them as being a freak.

But the damage it is now doing to "normal" children is unconscionable. And anyone who dare confront them may be canceled from society and perhaps lose their jobs.
See post 18. You really need to lighten up. Yes LGBT people should be allowed to feel better about themsselves and those who persecute them do need to be curbed, .....kicked to the curb to be specific. There is no damage being done to "normal "children. Nothing that is happening is serving to encourage or convince that a child who is cisgender and heterosexual is anything else. But those children who are diffenet are now being given permission to be out and open about their feelings an adults are being encourage to be supportive and helpful rather than shaming them and telling them to get over it.

The damage to children is done when a child who is have doubts about his or hers sexuality/gender identity is rejected and treated as a pariah. That is when the self destructive behavior begins and you might as well start to plan the funeral. Those people will surely have blood on their hands. You really have a piss poor understanding of all of this
 

TheProgressivePatriot

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It was not long ago that people who thought they were the opposite sex was declared mentally ill by the medical community, as well as those who desired to have sex with their same sex, etc.

I wonder, what scientific breakthrough convinced them it was "normal" and not a disorder?

Anyone?

People through the ages have, at times, called many normal things, abnormal or "mental illness". That doesn't mean they were right.
People who disagree with those conditions are being normal are being canceled from society. Children are being taught this and now there is an epidemic of gender confusion in children as a result.

So who says the Left is right? Who died and made them god over pretty much everything?
Well for starters , I have to take exection to the use of the term "condition" in this context. These are real people and they are what they are just as you are who you are.

The fact is that homosexuality, and to a lesser extent transgenderism has been "normalized" Few people dwell on it any longer. We live, work and play side by side. They are part of families and the community. We kind of know who they are but it has zero effect on interaction with them. There is no need or useful purpose in putting a pejorative lable on them

No one gets to decide what normal is for asnother human being. The fact is that LGBT folks are statistically rare makes it abnormal in a statistical sense onlt. It does not mean that these thing do not represent normal variations on human sexuality.

As far a people being canceled goes, they simple have to treat LGBT people as they temselves whould like to be treated. Very simple. People who disparage, marginalize and discriminate against individuals or a group based on who they are deserve to be canceled. It is no different that those who would treat racial or religious minorities. And not, no one is saying that you have to personally agree with homosexuality of transgenderism You can believe whatever you want. The concern is how you treat other and hoe your behavior effects them.

As far as children go, what they are being taught is 1) that they should be respectful and condsiderate of others who may be different 2) If they themselves should feel that are different they will not be riddiculed and ostracised or disowned and that they can confide in adults who will help them sort it out. This "explosion" of gender confusion" ( and sexual orientation issue) has likely always been there rightunder the serface. Children nor adults would dare not spoke of it. They repressed even the thought of it and for that reason, many suffered in silence. We are now in a much more open and rational phase of society. We are evolving and you should try to catch up
What is so damned funny Uncensored2008 | US Message Board - Political Discussion Forum

Is that all of the brain power you can muster?
 

XponentialChaos

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If you "identify" as LGBT, you probably aren't. You either are born that way or you simply aren't. I can say with confidence that I myself am gay. There is a history of that in my family. The indicators are there.

As I'm sure you know, there are many people on your side of the political spectrum who would argue that you have a mental illness - that there is something wrong with you.

As I'm sure you know, Mike Pence and many other Republicans have expressed that they do not support the right of you or people like you to marry. Mike Pence has also been linked to supporting conversion therapy, but I have not confirmed that myself.

The supreme court, with the help of unanimous support from the liberal justices, recently voted to support the protection of LGBT members from employer discrimination. Three of the conservative justices voted against this.

I can't help thinking that it seems like you are voting against your own interests. I'm sure you are a very nuanced person and there is much more to you than this single issue, but I'd love to hear about how you reconcile being both gay and aligning yourself with a political party that sees you as defective for being gay. Or that you chose to be gay. Take me through your thought process. What is it like? How do you choose to stay the course?
 

TheProgressivePatriot

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To me science may be part of the problem. Does science encourage transgender identification? It certainly can make the decision easier.

Without science it still would be the same. A personal decision. The activities that a person choices. Cosmetic fixes is just a way to hide something. Does anyone really need science to make enhancements? Science would say yes because we can do it. If your okay with who you are then it should not be needed.

I am against science mutilating the body for selfish reasons. Now if it is needed to survive a bit longer and allows some level of self sufficiency then okay. It would even be okay for correcting physical deformities . Cosmetic stuff is just wrong on so many levels.
You should do some reading on transsexuality. Apparently you have done none. While your're at it, look up something about intersexuals. This is not about cosmetic surgury, mutilation, or selfishness.
 
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TemplarKormac

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As I'm sure you know, there are many people on your side of the political spectrum who would argue that you have a mental illness - that there is something wrong with you.

I am quite well aware of that. But I also don't care to be patronized by people on your side either. I know there are bigots out there. On both sides, frankly. Bigotry is not unique to "my side"-- or yours. It is endemic to humanity as a whole. I wish people would come to understand that rather than labeling each other. It's wrong.


As I'm sure you know, Mike Pence and many other Republicans have expressed that they do not support the right of you or people like you to marry. Mike Pence has also been linked to supporting conversion therapy, but I have not confirmed that myself.

It's not for want of marriage that I am gay, I am simply acknowledging my attraction to other men. I am not gay for the title, either. It is what I am, it's what science says I am.

Conversion therapy is a crock. So is electroshock therapy for mental illness. Such barbarity should not exist in this world, but it does. Homosexuality is a regulatory mechanism for the human species. A natural governor of our population.

The supreme court, with the help of unanimous support from the liberal justices, recently voted to support the protection of LGBT members from employer discrimination. Three of the conservative justices voted against this.

To hell with the Supreme Court. They don't serve me, LGBT rights , or anyone with anything invested in this country. Clarence Thomas maybe, but the rest of them can go pound sand.

However, I am not going to use my homosexuality as a weapon. It is just part of who I am. Not a cudgel to advance my place in society. That's another thing I wish people in the activist LGBT community would learn to understand.

I can't help thinking that it seems like you are voting against your own interests.

The mistake here is that you are assuming the Democrats have my interests at heart when they go about forcing their will on an unsuspecting populous. I will dictate my interests, and I will vote for whomever I feel has them at heart. You also seem to think this is a team game. It is, in a way. America is the team, Democrats and Republicans aren't.

I am thus far ignoring your attempt to turn me against people I agree with ideologically. Curious, is that not the nature of politics though?


I'm sure you are a very nuanced person and there is much more to you than this single issue, but I'd love to hear about how you reconcile being both gay and aligning yourself with a political party that sees you as defective for being gay.

One thing you fail to understand is that the views you see expressed by the bigoted people in the Republican Party... do not reflect the will or platform of the party itself. You have this penchant for wanting to broad-brush an entire group of people based on the views of the minority. It's not fair and it's offensively stereotypical. People who see me as "defective" are an affront to science. And people who try to tell me my interests conflict with who I am, don't understand how life works in general. Not a slight at you, but a stated observation.


Or that you chose to be gay.

From my standpoint, there is no "choosing". See the introduction of my OP.


Take me through your thought process. What is it like? How do you choose to stay the course?

Objectivity. Ignore the cooks. Focus on those who understand you and aren't afraid to associate with you instead of patronizing you for what you are, and aren't. I focus on those who aren't swayed by their biases.

As for what it feels like... do you want me to be graphic or kid friendly? In all honestly, it involves self-restraint. I have plenty of that when it comes to sexual attraction. It isn't my cup of tea. I am asexual on top of being gay.
 
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TemplarKormac

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I think the same can be said for transgender people - and they too, seem to know, at a very young age, that they don't fit the body they were born with.

That is a psychological issue. The DNA does not lie, even after any or all chemical or surgical alterations done to appease their misconceptions about what gender they are. Being born male or female is a concrete statement of reality, and it does not conform with what you "feel" you are. I cannot accept that line of reasoning. If the organs and viscera that they were born with fit in the body they were born with, they in fact fit in the body they were born with. It might sound like a brutal way of putting it, but it is a statement of fact. People don't know how to separate feelings from facts anymore.

Moreover, you should encourage someone to be happy with who they are, not convince them they're something they aren't. It hurts me to see anyone be discouraged from being what they really and truly are and saying "you don't have to be happy with how you're born" is a genuine slap in the face to that individual, and frankly a high insult (to clarify, I am speaking in terms of gender only, not of wealth and status). Instead of that, tell them they need to be proud of what they are because that is the way nature intended them to be.

Emotions tell you what you believe, they don't tell you what is true.
 
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22lcidw

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It was not long ago that people who thought they were the opposite sex was declared mentally ill by the medical community, as well as those who desired to have sex with their same sex, etc.

I wonder, what scientific breakthrough convinced them it was "normal" and not a disorder?

Anyone?

People through the ages have, at times, called many normal things, abnormal or "mental illness". That doesn't mean they were right.
It was the denial of Science as per Prog accusations would spout. Our civilization needs a lot of resources to keep going now. On each individual in our nation, 27% on average of their annual income is from government of some type. And it is rising. This is not good.
 

colfax_m

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I wonder, what scientific breakthrough convinced them it was "normal" and not a disorder?
I’m not the best informed but I think you can still call it a disorder. The question is what you do about it.

I don’t think the conservative approach is effective let alone humane.
 

Votto

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I wonder, what scientific breakthrough convinced them it was "normal" and not a disorder?
I’m not the best informed but I think you can still call it a disorder. The question is what you do about it.

I don’t think the conservative approach is effective let alone humane.
So it's more humane polluting the minds of children who should not even be thinking about sex and causing them life long confusion, and tormenting parents who feel powerless about it all because they don't want to get canceled from society for disagreeing with any of it?

No, that's going from bad to worse.
 

colfax_m

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I wonder, what scientific breakthrough convinced them it was "normal" and not a disorder?
I’m not the best informed but I think you can still call it a disorder. The question is what you do about it.

I don’t think the conservative approach is effective let alone humane.
So it's more humane polluting the minds of children who should not even be thinking about sex and causing them life long confusion, and tormenting parents who feel powerless about it all because they don't want to get canceled from society for disagreeing with any of it?

No, that's going from bad to worse.
It’s not about sex, it’s about gender.

Lifelong confusion is forcing someone to live a life that doesn’t feel right. The feelings don’t go away just because you tell them they’re mentally ill and should not be feeling them.
 

Votto

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It was not long ago that people who thought they were the opposite sex was declared mentally ill by the medical community, as well as those who desired to have sex with their same sex, etc.

I wonder, what scientific breakthrough convinced them it was "normal" and not a disorder?

Anyone?
Not "science" at all. At least not biological science. It is more about enlightenment. Societal Evolution or as I like to say, the evolving standards of human decency
Human decency? I realize the primary goal probably was to make people who have such conditions feel better about themselves, and also to try and curb others from persecuting them as being a freak.

But the damage it is now doing to "normal" children is unconscionable. And anyone who dare confront them may be canceled from society and perhaps lose their jobs.
See post 18. You really need to lighten up. Yes LGBT people should be allowed to feel better about themsselves and those who persecute them do need to be curbed, .....kicked to the curb to be specific. There is no damage being done to "normal "children. Nothing that is happening is serving to encourage or convince that a child who is cisgender and heterosexual is anything else. But those children who are diffenet are now being given permission to be out and open about their feelings an adults are being encourage to be supportive and helpful rather than shaming them and telling them to get over it.

The damage to children is done when a child who is have doubts about his or hers sexuality/gender identity is rejected and treated as a pariah. That is when the self destructive behavior begins and you might as well start to plan the funeral. Those people will surely have blood on their hands. You really have a piss poor understanding of all of this
From Psychology Today



Littman raises cautions about encouraging young people’s desire to transition in all instances. From the cases reviewed in her study, she concluded that what she terms “rapid-onset gender dysphoria” (ROGD) appears to be a novel condition that emerges from cohort and contagion effects and novel social pressures. From this perspective, ROSD likely exhibits an aetiology and epidemiology that is distinct from the "classical" cases of gender dysphoria documented in the DSM.


Littman hypothesizes that ROGD can be cast as a maladaptive coping mechanism for other underlying mental health issues such as trauma or social maladjustment, but also for other exceptional traits like high IQ and giftedness. The peer support, prestige, and identity leveraged by the youth who proudly come out as trans certainly appears to be protective in their circles. As Littman’s study shows, this social signaling strategy also comes with strong disadvantages, particularly as it increases conflict between trans youth and the "cis" majority of the population, which, tellingly, includes a majority of the LGBT community.

No, they are doing real damage here
 
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TemplarKormac

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I wonder, what scientific breakthrough convinced them it was "normal" and not a disorder?
I’m not the best informed but I think you can still call it a disorder. The question is what you do about it.

I don’t think the conservative approach is effective let alone humane.
So it's more humane polluting the minds of children who should not even be thinking about sex and causing them life long confusion, and tormenting parents who feel powerless about it all because they don't want to get canceled from society for disagreeing with any of it?

No, that's going from bad to worse.
It’s not about sex, it’s about gender.

Lifelong confusion is forcing someone to live a life that doesn’t feel right. The feelings don’t go away just because you tell them they’re mentally ill and should not be feeling them.

No. Telling someone they don't have to be happy with how they're born, when they are born normally, is what incites confusion. It is unethical. You are in essence encouraging them to rebel against the dictates of nature itself.
 

colfax_m

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Explain (without using "religion" as a crutch), what approach would that be precisely?
Tell them they’re mentally ill because of what they feel is true about themselves. Keep forcing them to live a life they don’t feel comfortable with.
 

Votto

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I wonder, what scientific breakthrough convinced them it was "normal" and not a disorder?
I’m not the best informed but I think you can still call it a disorder. The question is what you do about it.

I don’t think the conservative approach is effective let alone humane.
Just like how do you fix crazy?

Unfortunately, crazy people are treated differently in society than someone who has heart disease, for example. The social stigma revolving around mental illness is tragic, but people suck and they gravitate towards stupidity and are petty.

Cutting off perfectly healthy organs, however, is mutilation. And injecting hormones into a perfectly healthy body is medical malpractice
 

Votto

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Explain (without using "religion" as a crutch), what approach would that be precisely?
Tell them they’re mentally ill because of what they feel is true about themselves. Keep forcing them to live a life they don’t feel comfortable with.
If someone thinks they are a cow, which does happen, should surgeons attach a tail?
 

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