Let me tell you something: Science and Politics

[colfax_m]

I wonder, what scientific breakthrough convinced them it was "normal" and not a disorder?

I’m not the best informed but I think you can still call it a disorder. The question is what you do about it.

I don’t think the conservative approach is effective let alone humane.

Just like how do you fix crazy?

Unfortunately, crazy people are treated differently in society than someone who has heart disease, for example. The social stigma revolving around mental illness is tragic, but people suck and they gravitate towards stupidity and are petty.

Cutting off perfectly healthy organs, however, is mutilation. And injecting hormones into a perfectly healthy body is medical malpractice

People do suck, especially when they feel they need to tell people how to live their lives even if it makes them miserable.

Hear me out. Maybe people could suck less?

 

[colfax_m]

If someone thinks they are a cow, which does happen, should surgeons attach a tail?

Gender and species are quite different.

 

[XponentialChaos]

As I'm sure you know, there are many people on your side of the political spectrum who would argue that you have a mental illness - that there is something wrong with you.

I am quite well aware of that. But I also don't care to be patronized by people on your side either. I know there are bigots out there. On both sides, frankly. Bigotry is not unique to "my side"-- or yours. It is endemic to humanity as a whole. I wish people would come to understand that rather than labeling each other. It's wrong.

As I'm sure you know, Mike Pence and many other Republicans have expressed that they do not support the right of you or people like you to marry. Mike Pence has also been linked to supporting conversion therapy, but I have not confirmed that myself.

It's not for want of marriage that I am gay, I am simply acknowledging my attraction to other men. I am not gay for the title, either. It is what I am, it's what science says I am.

Conversion therapy is a crock. So is electroshock therapy for mental illness. Such barbarity should not exist in this world, but it does. Homosexuality is a regulatory mechanism for the human species. A natural governor of our population.

The supreme court, with the help of unanimous support from the liberal justices, recently voted to support the protection of LGBT members from employer discrimination. Three of the conservative justices voted against this.

To hell with the Supreme Court. They don't serve me, LGBT rights , or anyone with anything invested in this country. Clarence Thomas maybe, but the rest of them can go pound sand.

However, I am not going to use my homosexuality as a weapon. It is just part of who I am. Not a cudgel to advance my place in society. That's another thing I wish people in the activist LGBT community would learn to understand.

I can't help thinking that it seems like you are voting against your own interests.

The mistake here is that you are assuming the Democrats have my interests at heart when they go about forcing their will on an unsuspecting populous. I will dictate my interests, and I will vote for whomever I feel has them at heart. You also seem to think this is a team game. It is, in a way. America is the team, Democrats and Republicans aren't.

I am thus far ignoring your attempt to turn me against people I agree with ideologically. Curious, is that not the nature of politics though?

I'm sure you are a very nuanced person and there is much more to you than this single issue, but I'd love to hear about how you reconcile being both gay and aligning yourself with a political party that sees you as defective for being gay.

One thing you fail to understand is that the views you see expressed by the bigoted people in the Republican Party... do not reflect the will or platform of the party itself. You have this penchant for wanting to broad-brush an entire group of people based on the views of the minority. It's not fair and it's offensively stereotypical. People who see me as "defective" are an affront to science. And people who try to tell me my interests conflict with who I am, don't understand how life works in general. Not a slight at you, but a stated observation.

Or that you chose to be gay.

From my standpoint, there is no "choosing". See the introduction of my OP.

Take me through your thought process. What is it like? How do you choose to stay the course?

Objectivity. Ignore the cooks. Focus on those who understand you and aren't afraid to associate with you instead of patronizing you for what you are, and aren't. I focus on those who aren't swayed by their biases.

As for what it feels like... do you want me to be graphic or kid friendly? In all honestly, it involves self-restraint. I have plenty of that when it comes to sexual attraction. It isn't my cup of tea. I am asexual on top of being gay.

First I’d like to apologize if I came across as insincere. I’m not trying to turn you away from anything. As far as I’m concerned, that seldom happens around here. I’m more interested in simply understanding your position. I’m still not entirely clear but I’m trying to understand. Just genuinely curious because it seems to me like you’re acting against your own self-interests. I’m sure I’m wrong because I’m not in your shoes, but still curious about your motivations.

So let me try to clarify a few things and see if we can reach some common ground:

Bigotry against homosexuality is not only on one side. But it is mostly on one side. Agree?

I agree that conversion therapy is terrible. How do you support someone who is in favor of it? I’m trying to understand your position and I can’t.

Liberal justices unanimously argued that LGBT members should not be discriminated against. Conservative justices did not. Is this not important to you?

Regarding the broad brush against conservatives, I don’t think I’m labeling ALL conservatives as bigoted against homosexuality. I just see one side as generally more accepting of gay people and the other side as generally less accepting of gay people. Agree or disagree?

As for what it feels like...yes I’m curious. It seems to me like you’re heavily invested in a political party that is more likely to see you as mentally damaged...I’m curious as to how you deal with that. I’m sure you have your reasons and I’d like to try to understand.

 

[Coyote]

It was not long ago that people who thought they were the opposite sex was declared mentally ill by the medical community, as well as those who desired to have sex with their same sex, etc.

I wonder, what scientific breakthrough convinced them it was "normal" and not a disorder?

Anyone?

People through the ages have, at times, called many normal things, abnormal or "mental illness". That doesn't mean they were right.

People who disagree with those conditions are being normal are being canceled from society. Children are being taught this and now there is an epidemic of gender confusion in children as a result.

So who says the Left is right? Who died and made them god over pretty much everything?

Are they being canceled? I kind of think that is the new buzzword. We used to call it "boycotts" and "social pressure" to enact change, like they boycotted Disney because of it's gay friendly policies.

I have never heard of any epidemic of gender confusion.

Who says the right is right? Who died and them god over everything? Who gave them the right to decide who get's to be considered "normal" (part of the in-group" or "abnormal" (that which must be fixed or eradicated)?

 

[TheProgressivePatriot]

It was not long ago that people who thought they were the opposite sex was declared mentally ill by the medical community, as well as those who desired to have sex with their same sex, etc.

I wonder, what scientific breakthrough convinced them it was "normal" and not a disorder?

Anyone?

Not "science" at all. At least not biological science. It is more about enlightenment. Societal Evolution or as I like to say, the evolving standards of human decency

Human decency? I realize the primary goal probably was to make people who have such conditions feel better about themselves, and also to try and curb others from persecuting them as being a freak.

But the damage it is now doing to "normal" children is unconscionable. And anyone who dare confront them may be canceled from society and perhaps lose their jobs.

See post 18. You really need to lighten up. Yes LGBT people should be allowed to feel better about themsselves and those who persecute them do need to be curbed, .....kicked to the curb to be specific. There is no damage being done to "normal "children. Nothing that is happening is serving to encourage or convince that a child who is cisgender and heterosexual is anything else. But those children who are diffenet are now being given permission to be out and open about their feelings an adults are being encourage to be supportive and helpful rather than shaming them and telling them to get over it.

The damage to children is done when a child who is have doubts about his or hers sexuality/gender identity is rejected and treated as a pariah. That is when the self destructive behavior begins and you might as well start to plan the funeral. Those people will surely have blood on their hands. You really have a piss poor understanding of all of this

From Psychology Today

Why Is Transgender Identity on the Rise Among Teens?

Transgender identity appears to be on the rise, particularly among young girls. A study sheds light on the role of social contagion, and raises hard questions.

www.psychologytoday.com

Littman raises cautions about encouraging young people’s desire to transition in all instances. From the cases reviewed in her study, she concluded that what she terms “rapid-onset gender dysphoria” (ROGD) appears to be a novel condition that emerges from cohort and contagion effects and novel social pressures. From this perspective, ROSD likely exhibits an aetiology and epidemiology that is distinct from the "classical" cases of gender dysphoria documented in the DSM.


Littman hypothesizes that ROGD can be cast as a maladaptive coping mechanism for other underlying mental health issues such as trauma or social maladjustment, but also for other exceptional traits like high IQ and giftedness. The peer support, prestige, and identity leveraged by the youth who proudly come out as trans certainly appears to be protective in their circles. As Littman’s study shows, this social signaling strategy also comes with strong disadvantages, particularly as it increases conflict between trans youth and the "cis" majority of the population, which, tellingly, includes a majority of the LGBT community.

No, they are doing real damage here

Yes, so what? Is any of that psychobabble supposed to refute or contradict anything that I said.? Do you have any original thoughts of your own? Can you refute anything that I have said or can you do nothing more than flood the conversation with technical mombo jumbo that in no way addressed the reality that LGBT actually face in everyday life?

And, from the piece that you posted:

In the DSM-5, the standard classification of mental disorders used by mental health professionals, this condition is known as “gender dysphoria." Note that classifying gender dysphoria as a disorder does not—indeed, should not—imply a moral judgment of transgender individuals. Depending on the degree of social stigma associated with it, transgender identity can be accompanied by very significant distress. The point of the mental-health outlook is to help reduce stigma and assist transgender individuals in leading good lives. The role of social norms in this picture, however, remains unclear and hotly debated.

This and other passages seem to support what I have said. Try dealing with the real life issues that I spoke of instead of trying to obscure the issue with technical crap which is interesting but meaninless for people actually struggling with gender identity.

 

[Coyote]

I wonder, what scientific breakthrough convinced them it was "normal" and not a disorder?

I’m not the best informed but I think you can still call it a disorder. The question is what you do about it.

I don’t think the conservative approach is effective let alone humane.

Just like how do you fix crazy?

Unfortunately, crazy people are treated differently in society than someone who has heart disease, for example. The social stigma revolving around mental illness is tragic, but people suck and they gravitate towards stupidity and are petty.

Cutting off perfectly healthy organs, however, is mutilation. And injecting hormones into a perfectly healthy body is medical malpractice

Just curious...if someone has a "gender identity disorder"...and treatment: hormones, etc. give that person a quality of life they previously did not have, as a functioning normal human being - then isn't that considered a successful treatment of the disorder?

 

[TemplarKormac]

Bigotry against homosexuality is not only on one side. But it is mostly on one side. Agree?

No. Bigotry against homosexuality is a universal character flaw.

I agree that conversion therapy is terrible. How do you support someone who is in favor of it? I’m trying to understand your position and I can’t.

I never said I did. (smiles)

Also, people are entitled to their beliefs, as guided or misguided as they may be. It is not my job to vet the beliefs of everyone I come across who has the same ideological mindset as I do. Is it right to tell someone they aren't allowed to believe one way or another because it offends you?

Liberal justices unanimously argued that LGBT members should not be discriminated against. Conservative justices did not. Is this not important to you?

You misunderstand. The Supreme Court is not important to me. Not anymore. They serve more to be a political apparatus than a true arbiter of the law.

Regarding the broad brush against conservatives, I don’t think I’m labeling ALL conservatives as bigoted against homosexuality. I just see one side as generally more accepting of gay people and the other side as generally less accepting of gay people. Agree or disagree?

No. That "one party" is only accepting of gay people who share the same mindset as they do about gay rights. Or what their perception of LGBT rights seems to be. Richard Grenell and Andy Ngo are two prime examples of that. I can name other gay conservatives who were shunned by that oh-so-accepting party because they supported Trump or held conservative views in general.

And with all due respect, you're living in a bubble if you think one party is more accepting of someone or something than the other. On anything.

As for what it feels like...yes I’m curious. It seems to me like you’re heavily invested in a political party that is more likely to see you as mentally damaged

Hm. No. I am not invested in any political party. I loathe two party politics. It has done nothing but tear this nation asunder from coast to coast, erasing any unity that it espouses to champion.

Don't take this as me refusing to answer your curiosity, but are you suggesting I should embrace one party who is as bigoted as the other?

 

[TemplarKormac]

First I’d like to apologize if I came across as insincere. I’m not trying to turn you away from anything. As far as I’m concerned, that seldom happens around here.

No worries. I sensed you were curious, but I didn't know if it was genuine. Such is the nature of this board.

 

[Seawytch]

Every now and then, I will post threads beginning with the title "Let me tell you something."

Let me tell you something:

If you "identify" as LGBT, you probably aren't. You either are born that way or you simply aren't. I can say with confidence that I myself am gay. There is a history of that in my family. The indicators are there.

It's the same principle as gender, you're born male or female, identifying as the opposite gender does not make you that gender.

If we extol the sciences to the point of being sacrosanct, then let the science speak on both ends of the ideological spectrum.

That, or don't claim you listen to or respect science. Your choice. But don't lecture me about science if you only pick and choose what parts of it to believe.

(And for those who will undoubtedly bring up climate change: Yes, I believe in climate change, but not in the idea that humans are a direct cause of it. Those views are also backed by science. That is another thread entirely, however. I will not address those arguments here.)

The science on gender isn't as black and white as you want it to be...

Cleveland Clinic Health Essentials

Health and wellness information and insights from Cleveland Clinic experts to help you live healthier every day.

health.clevelandclinic.org

 

[TemplarKormac]

If someone thinks they are a cow, which does happen, should surgeons attach a tail?

Gender and species are quite different.

In some cases that's true. But as far as homo sapiens is concerned, it isn't. Gender is what helps tell our species how to procreate.

 

[Coyote]

Every now and then, I will post threads beginning with the title "Let me tell you something."

Let me tell you something:

If you "identify" as LGBT, you probably aren't. You either are born that way or you simply aren't. I can say with confidence that I myself am gay. There is a history of that in my family. The indicators are there.

It's the same principle as gender, you're born male or female, identifying as the opposite gender does not make you that gender.

If we extol the sciences to the point of being sacrosanct, then let the science speak on both ends of the ideological spectrum.

That, or don't claim you listen to or respect science. Your choice. But don't lecture me about science if you only pick and choose what parts of it to believe.

(And for those who will undoubtedly bring up climate change: Yes, I believe in climate change, but not in the idea that humans are a direct cause of it. Those views are also backed by science. That is another thread entirely, however. I will not address those arguments here.)

The science on gender isn't as black and white as you want it to be...

Cleveland Clinic Health Essentials

Health and wellness information and insights from Cleveland Clinic experts to help you live healthier every day.

health.clevelandclinic.org

That's a fascinating read.

Male, female and transgender brains​

“The male and female brain have structural differences,” he says. Men and women tend to have different volumes in certain areas of the brain.​

​

“When we look at the transgender brain, we see that the brain resembles the gender that the person identifies as,” Dr. Altinay says. For example, a person who is born with a penis but ends up identifying as a female often actually has some of the structural characteristics of a “female” brain.​

So gender isn't just a matter of sexual organs, but also brain development and structure....

 

[TemplarKormac]

Every now and then, I will post threads beginning with the title "Let me tell you something."

Let me tell you something:

If you "identify" as LGBT, you probably aren't. You either are born that way or you simply aren't. I can say with confidence that I myself am gay. There is a history of that in my family. The indicators are there.

It's the same principle as gender, you're born male or female, identifying as the opposite gender does not make you that gender.

If we extol the sciences to the point of being sacrosanct, then let the science speak on both ends of the ideological spectrum.

That, or don't claim you listen to or respect science. Your choice. But don't lecture me about science if you only pick and choose what parts of it to believe.

(And for those who will undoubtedly bring up climate change: Yes, I believe in climate change, but not in the idea that humans are a direct cause of it. Those views are also backed by science. That is another thread entirely, however. I will not address those arguments here.)

The science on gender isn't as black and white as you want it to be...

Cleveland Clinic Health Essentials

Health and wellness information and insights from Cleveland Clinic experts to help you live healthier every day.

health.clevelandclinic.org

Tell you what.

My mental disorder was diagnosed as a chemical imbalance in my brain. More than likely being transgender is the same thing. A chemical miscommunication in the individual's brain.

When someone refuses to acknowledge stark reality, such as being born male or female, that is deemed to be a psychological disorder.

And yes, gender is concrete, it is not fluid. Gender isn't a concept that can be changed based on feeling, it is a natural, physical representation of what sets you apart from other individuals of our species.

 

[Juicin]

Males are disposable losing some to homoerotic shit is probably good for social cohesion

I can't help but resent that, being male. We are not disposable. Without males, the females are incapable of reproducing. That's science.

Well you need a lot less males than females, which is also science...?

Also why we're generally the disposable gender.

There is no replacing a lost womb. Much easier to produce a lost sire

 

[TheProgressivePatriot]

If someone thinks they are a cow, which does happen, should surgeons attach a tail?

Gender and species are quite different.

In some cases that's true. But as far as homo sapiens is concerned, it isn't. Gender is what helps tell our species how to procreate.

I don't think that procreation is relavent in a discussion of transpeople on a planet that is over populated and where transpeople comprise a much smaler percentage of the population than cicgenger people who chose to not have children

 

[Coyote]

Every now and then, I will post threads beginning with the title "Let me tell you something."

Let me tell you something:

If you "identify" as LGBT, you probably aren't. You either are born that way or you simply aren't. I can say with confidence that I myself am gay. There is a history of that in my family. The indicators are there.

It's the same principle as gender, you're born male or female, identifying as the opposite gender does not make you that gender.

If we extol the sciences to the point of being sacrosanct, then let the science speak on both ends of the ideological spectrum.

That, or don't claim you listen to or respect science. Your choice. But don't lecture me about science if you only pick and choose what parts of it to believe.

(And for those who will undoubtedly bring up climate change: Yes, I believe in climate change, but not in the idea that humans are a direct cause of it. Those views are also backed by science. That is another thread entirely, however. I will not address those arguments here.)

The science on gender isn't as black and white as you want it to be...

Cleveland Clinic Health Essentials

Health and wellness information and insights from Cleveland Clinic experts to help you live healthier every day.

health.clevelandclinic.org

Tell you what.

My mental disorder was diagnosed as a chemical imbalance in my brain. More than likely being transgender is the same thing. A chemical miscommunication in the individual's brain.

When someone refuses to acknowledge stark reality, such as being born male or female, that is deemed to be a psychological disorder.

And yes, gender is concrete, it is not fluid.

I'm going to challenge that. Not all disorders that affect the brain arise in the brain, are caused by chemical miscommunication, or are necessarily even disorders.

You can have structural differences - such as the differences in the structures of the brain that can create a gifted musician, or left handed vs right handed, or dyslexia or schizophrenia. They have found in some cases actually differences run the brain, in the areas that fire up during certain activities.

There is plenty of research to show that there are differences between the brains of women and men...so, if that is so....then...

if someone is born with the chromosomes and gonads of one gender but the brain structure of another gender. Then what exactly does that mean?

Who are we? Are brains? Our gonads? Both?

Are gonads the only determiner of gender? If so then how would explain the brain differences?

And how would you fix it?

 

[TemplarKormac]

Males are disposable losing some to homoerotic shit is probably good for social cohesion

I can't help but resent that, being male. We are not disposable. Without males, the females are incapable of reproducing. That's science.

Well you need a lot less males than females, which is also science...?

Also why we're generally the disposable gender.

There is no replacing a lost womb. Much easier to produce a lost sire

I have a feeling this is more of a slippery slope than a well-meaning topic of discussion.

 

[TemplarKormac]

You can have structural differences - such as the differences in the structures of the brain that can create a gifted musician, or left handed vs right handed, or dyslexia or schizophrenia. They have found in some cases actually differences run the brain, in the areas that fire up during certain activities.

Structural differences are dictated in part by hormones at birth. Nothing says hormones can't play a role in correcting gender dysphoria when the person has the capacity for better judgment.

Challenge accepted.

 

[TheProgressivePatriot]

Every now and then, I will post threads beginning with the title "Let me tell you something."

Let me tell you something:

If you "identify" as LGBT, you probably aren't. You either are born that way or you simply aren't. I can say with confidence that I myself am gay. There is a history of that in my family. The indicators are there.

It's the same principle as gender, you're born male or female, identifying as the opposite gender does not make you that gender.

If we extol the sciences to the point of being sacrosanct, then let the science speak on both ends of the ideological spectrum.

That, or don't claim you listen to or respect science. Your choice. But don't lecture me about science if you only pick and choose what parts of it to believe.

(And for those who will undoubtedly bring up climate change: Yes, I believe in climate change, but not in the idea that humans are a direct cause of it. Those views are also backed by science. That is another thread entirely, however. I will not address those arguments here.)

The science on gender isn't as black and white as you want it to be...

Cleveland Clinic Health Essentials

Health and wellness information and insights from Cleveland Clinic experts to help you live healthier every day.

health.clevelandclinic.org

Tell you what.

My mental disorder was diagnosed as a chemical imbalance in my brain. More than likely being transgender is the same thing. A chemical miscommunication in the individual's brain.

When someone refuses to acknowledge stark reality, such as being born male or female, that is deemed to be a psychological disorder.

And yes, gender is concrete, it is not fluid. Gender isn't a concept that can be changed based on feeling, it is a natural, physical representation of what sets you apart from other individuals of our species.

Wow! That is interesting. This is why I hang out here. I am 73 years old and can always learn somthing new. You are gay and consider it a mental disorder? Tell us more about that chemical disorder. Is it treatable,? I would guess that it is? So what have you done about it.? How do you feel about being gay. I am seriously interested

 

[TemplarKormac]

if someone is born with the chromosomes and gonads of one gender but the brain structure of another gender. Then what exactly does that mean?

Like I said. Hormones can dictate growth and structure. It tells the cells, and thereby proxy the DNA what to do and how to replicate.

If it's a mere matter of structure, the structure can be corrected. With ethical therapeutics, of course.

 

[TemplarKormac]

You are gay and consider it a mental disorder?

No. That's not what I said. I have other psychological disorders that have nothing to do with being gay. Moreover, I don't consider being gay to be a mental disorder.