Lessons that most likely will not be learned

[eagle7-31]

Lessons to Learn from the Loss of Afghanistan

Kandahar is fallen. Kabul, too. To hear again those names is to bring back a lost youth a lifetime of operations overseas. When I heard that Kandahar had fallen to the Taliban...I had a bad day. I did not think ...

www.americanthinker.com

from either side of the aisle.

 

[eagle7-31]

Lessons to Learn from the Loss of Afghanistan

Kandahar is fallen. Kabul, too. To hear again those names is to bring back a lost youth a lifetime of operations overseas. When I heard that Kandahar had fallen to the Taliban...I had a bad day. I did not think ...

www.americanthinker.com

from either side of the aisle.

t has long been my observation that groups, communities, and nations usually get the government they deserve. A virtuous people is usually ruled fairly well — an anarchic people either collapses into anarchy or is ruled strictly. I think this was President Bush's major conceptual strategic mistake in the post-9-11 wars. He believed that every nation longed for freedom and was capable of democratic self-government. As we have learned the hard way, our American constitutional government was not just ordered into existence by the Founders; it is the heritage of untold generations of Germanic tribal self-government, the monastic stewarding of the Roman legacy of education, the Anglo-Saxon traditions of consultative government, the compromise of the Magna Carta, the residue of the English Civil Wars and Bill of Rights, and the self-governing experience of the Pilgrims and the colonial founders in the New World interacting with the French and Scottish Enlightenment.

This was not Afghanistan's experience — the many peoples of Afghanistan lacked the human capital to democratically govern themselves. The vast majority of Afghans could not read, write, or numerate — parts of Afghan Army basic training were simply teaching soldiers to recognize numbers. The few Afghan elites were ethnically divided and mutually suspicious. Often there was no tradition of peaceful self-governance — of the clans living in a valley, often there would be a low-level war among them over resources. Simply put, the Afghans were not truly capable of self-governing democracy in the Jeffersonian sense. Therefore, they could not create a government worth dying for.

Sadly, we Americans ourselves also lacked the moral clarity and realism to even try to make the conditions to help build a moral government. All too often the phrase "it's an Afghan matter" was used as a rationale to excuse some immoral action of our Afghan government partners. We saw the evil actions of the Afghan government officials but did nothing about it — in great contrast to the colonial heyday, when British officials would say, "It may be your tradition to burn widows alive, but it is my tradition to hang those who do so." We simply shrugged our shoulders and said, "It's the culture" as we tolerated the evil that destroyed the legitimacy of the Afghan government.

Roads not taken

Our experience in Afghanistan reminds me of the biblical story of Abraham pleading with G-d to save the doomed city of Sodom: if fifty righteous men be found in the city, will you not destroy it? What if only ten righteous men be found there? And the city was destroyed because not even ten good men could be found.

Basically, there were not enough good Afghan leaders at all levels of the security forces to beat the Taliban. This is why the Afghan forces did not fall apart until U.S. forces withdrew completely. Afghan forces may not have trusted their own leaders, but they had some confidence in the U.S. forces. Only a very small number of U.S. forces fighting alongside the Afghans during the Trump years was enough to hold the Taliban at bay.

One path that might have worked would be some type of mercenary Western leadership and technical force. The military of the United Arab Emirates is led by an Australian general, with Western military staffing where appropriate, and the competent Jordanian forces were likewise led by a British general for many years. Within the military advising realm, when U.S. advisers were not hamstrung, only a few U.S. leaders were able to lead many local forces in aggressive and effective operations.

Similarly, I imagine that had President Trump still been leading rather than President Biden, the drawdown would have been paused — and some special forces teams and bombers would have been dispatched in sufficient numbers to halt the Taliban's advance. I note that during Trump's years, Afghanistan was relatively quiet. The Taliban did not attack so dramatically until they had taken the measure of Biden.

Watching twenty years of American blood and treasure float away like dust in the wind hurts. Perhaps we will draw some lessons from this pain.

 

[miketx]

This is just a smoke screen for something else.

 

[Dragonlady]

For more than 2000 years Afghanistan has been invaded by the greatest armies of the world. It has never been conquered.

One might think that Bush, and the Joint Chiefs would have known that from studying history. Or they might have learned something from the Russian disasters in Afghanistan which immediately preceded your own.

But no. It'll be different for YOU.

This outcome was not unexpected. It's just sad that you were dumb enough to be believe W, or to think things would be different for you.

 

[B. Kidd]

I just love how loser's explain away their losses.

 

[Couchpotato]

For more than 2000 years Afghanistan has been invaded by the greatest armies of the world. It has never been conquered.

One might think that Bush, and the Joint Chiefs would have known that from studying history. Or they might have learned something from the Russian disasters in Afghanistan which immediately preceded your own.

But no. It'll be different for YOU.

This outcome was not unexpected. It's just sad that you were dumb enough to be believe W, or to think things would be different for you.

That’s the biggest bunch of bullshit ever. ”Afghanistan” didn’t even exist until after the British empire dismantled itself. Present day Afghanistan is an amalgamation of 15+ different cultures. Pashtuns, Baluch, Tajiks, Uzbeks, Turkmen etc. which is one of the main reasons it will never be a nation united. The people there dont see themselves as Afghani’s.

The region was conquered by Alexander the Great, Ghengis Khan, and the Brits. Had we been willing to stay we had conquered it as well. This idea that it’s some unconquerable area is just a stupid talking point.

 

[debbiedowner]

Lessons to Learn from the Loss of Afghanistan

Kandahar is fallen. Kabul, too. To hear again those names is to bring back a lost youth a lifetime of operations overseas. When I heard that Kandahar had fallen to the Taliban...I had a bad day. I did not think ...

www.americanthinker.com

from either side of the aisle.

You're right and doesn't matter when we withdrew or who the President was or is in the future it would have ended in the same disaster. I was stationed in the middle east in the last 60's and early 70's the majority have never wanted us there to begin with.

 

[debbiedowner]

I just love how loser's explain away their losses.

I just love it when trumpers were all for this in May of 2020 and not all against it a little over a year later.

 

[Dragonlady]

That’s the biggest bunch of bullshit ever. ”Afghanistan” didn’t even exist until after the British empire dismantled itself. Present day Afghanistan is an amalgamation of 15+ different cultures. Pashtuns, Baluch, Tajiks, Uzbeks, Turkmen etc. which is one of the main reasons it will never be a nation united. The people there dont see themselves as Afghani’s.

The region was conquered by Alexander the Great, Ghengis Khan, and the Brits. Had we been willing to stay we had conquered it as well. This idea that it’s some unconquerable area is just a stupid talking point.

There is a difference between being "occupied" and being "conquered".

 

[harmonica]

eagle7-31 Afghanistan has always been a shithole--unstable .....it can't be helped....they have to do it themselves......
here's my thread---an example of their problems

South Vietnam /Afghanistan governments comparisons

--how many of you know the history of Afghanistan? ...a critical comparison of both of these countries are governmental instability = [ duh ] UNSTABLE - can't be helped = their military unstable/useless ....South Vietnam had 3 heads of state changes in less than a year--1 with a murder.--and...

www.usmessageboard.com

 

[B. Kidd]

I just love it when trumpers were all for this in May of 2020 and not all against it a little over a year later.

We knew it wasn't going anywhere as the Taliban was not meeting conditions.
Why didn't you?

 

[Couchpotato]

There is a difference between being "occupied" and being "conquered".

We were “occupying” them with 2500 troops. But that doesn’t change the fact that you’re little saying is 100% unadulterated bullshit.

 

[colfax_m]

We knew it wasn't going anywhere as the Taliban was not meeting conditions.
Why didn't you?

What conditions did they fail to meet?

 

[Couchpotato]

What conditions did they fail to meet?

Primarily not launching an offensive against the Afghanistan Government.

 

[miketx]

This outcome was not unexpected. It's just sad that you were dumb enough to be believe W, or to think things would be different for you.

After you traitors elected Biden, the outcome was already a done deal.

 

[colfax_m]

Primarily not launching an offensive against the Afghanistan Government.

I believe they only promised not to attack foreign forces.

 

[miketx]

I believe they only promised not to attack foreign forces.

If you believe anything they say then you are part of the problem.

 

[B. Kidd]

What conditions did they fail to meet?

3/1 withdrawal was contingent upon 2 main points:
- prisoner swap if Taliban and Afghan Gov't started talks by March 10th, this year.
- lift U.S. and seperate U.N. sanctions once talks started.

Biden got installed, Trump not Prez, so it's a moot F'in point!!

 

[Couchpotato]

I believe they only promised not to attack foreign forces.

Open kimono I have not read the agreement that was signed, so you may be correct. That said seems weird that we would sign an agreement whereby the Taliban would be allowed to launch a major offensive before we left making us look weak and ineffectual. Especially since the agreed upon withdrawal date was in the middle of the fighting season.

 

[colfax_m]

Open kimono I have not read the agreement that was signed, so you may be correct. That said seems weird that we would sign an agreement whereby the Taliban would be allowed to launch a major offensive before we left making us look weak and ineffectual. Especially since the agreed upon withdrawal date was in the middle of the fighting season.

It might seem less weird given the Taliban don’t give a damn about attacking the US, they only care about controlling Afghanistan. Trump’s priority wasn’t the Afghani people, it was US involvement.

The Taliban weren’t going to sign a peace deal with the Afghanistan government and it wasn’t a priority for the Trump administration (or Biden administration).