Judge rules pro-HAMAS foreigner can be deported for undermining U.S. policy

[Robert W]

Why are you so terrified of having Americans hear HAMAS' side of the story?

That reminds me of telling us to listen to the bank robbers side of his story.

 

[AZrailwhale]

We've legitimized worse governments, even propped them up. The problem is, Hamas would probably win an election pretty easily. While Fatah was sucking up to Israel and stealing aid provided by the west hand over fist, Hamas was providing social services and support. The last legitimate election in the Palestinian territories was in 2006, which Hamas won easily.



Given the stranglehold that AIPAC has on both political parties, that is fairly unlikely.



Maybe she really liked those pancakes?



I'm not sure I buy that. Very few Jews lived in Palestine before the British took it over from the Ottomans. Most of them are European settlers. Name any prominent Israeli politician since 1948; you will find someone who was either born in Europe or whose parents were.

And here's the problem: Israel is a colonial state, probably the last one. What they practice is a form of apartheid, because if they were an egalitarian state, there wouldn't be an Israel.

As usual your grasp of history is weak. The Muslims got over ninety percent of the Middle East. Jordan, Syria, Lebanon, Libya, Saudi Arabia all were given to the Muslims, with the Jews given a tiny piece of TransJordan that was mostly desert and had no natural resources.

Well, to start with, those other countries aren't being subsidized by the US Taxpayer the way Israel is.



Oh, I agree the Palestinians screwed themselves by trusting the British. They and every other Arab nation should have heeded the Sultan's call for Jihad in 1914. Instead, they believe the British when they told them they'd get their own countries, only to have the Brits turn around and try to dump Europe's Jews into the place (colonialism by proxy).



The problem with any single state solution is that there are more Palestinians than Israelis. (If you count the occupied territories, those living in Israel proper, and refugees living outside Palestine).

That leaves a two-state option, but that's equally unacceptable to the Palestinians because it would mean accepting the theft (and yes, it was theft) of their land to start with.



Yes, that is pretty horrible. "It's okay when we do it" is never a good look.

 

[irosie91]

Rumeysa Ozturk

---she insisted that jews are supposed to lie down and die if muslims want to kill them
in accordance with Shariah law. Defense by jews is defined, in shariah law, as criminal
aggression against ISLAM for GOOD REASON----jews do have the option of either
converting to islam or accepting DHIMMIA status. That option is called "FREEDOM"
I learned about the laudible theology from m,uslim informants and about the practical
applications from jews who survived the system you seem to advocate. You are far from alone

 

[Lisa558]

The two state solution would be ideal. Unfortunately neither Gaza or the West Bank are willing to accept it. It was been offered before and refused before. Hamas and Hezbollah are only willing to accept a one state solution that is Juden frei to use the old German phrase.

Coyote’s antisemitism aside, she is a liar and puts all sorts of words in my mouth,

What she is doing, among other things, is moving the bar as to under what circumstances we can revoke visas from HAMAS propagandists who are riling up more violence against Jews. (She’s very tolerant of violence against Jews.)

Now she’s claiming they have to commit a “crime.” No, they do not. Being a rabble-rouser from a foreign country, going to campuses where antisemitism is off the charts and spreading anti-Israel LIES, does not mean you are entitled to stay here.

And as far as the two-state solution, Coyote likes to pretend that all, or even most, Palestinians are innocent and decent people. They have been offered land-for-peace before but they rejected it because it required they recognize Israel’s right to exist. And they do not. They want Israel destroyed and all her Jews dead.

 

[Coyote]

Robert W
Should those right apply to people who are not in the country legally or violate the terms of their visas?

Yes. Once you start chipping away at it you create a slippery slope. The basic right of habeas corpus applies to everyone in this country and is foundational. They have a right to make a case, whether it is asylum or to challenge the allegations made against them. When it comes to illegal immigrants there is an entire body laws and court rulings which define the process and what they are legally entitled to.

And please note, because I know some one is going to jump in and claim I am supporting illegal immigration, I’m not. I am (strongly, vociferously) supporting the process by which we make these determinations and rulings. Non-citizens are the low hanging fruit. Once you remove what rights they have….who is next?

This is what seperates us from authoritarian regimes and their capricious applications of the laws.

In my opinion, no. A lesser level of rights, mostly that they can not be abused should apply. At most a very short interview with a low-level immigration official where the potential deportee can offer an explanation to mitigate deportation, then if not accepted, immediate deportation.

I don’t agree, it allows for very arbritary and potentially unlawful decisions and potential deportation to a dangerous situation with no recourse to appeal or habeas corpus.

Visa applicants should be forced to place the costs of repatriation in an escrow account before the visa is issued.

Why?

They pay heavily for a visa and for many, their visas are been yanked for political reasons alone. And this is America!!!

 

[AZrailwhale]

Yes. Once you start chipping away at it you create a slippery slope. The basic right of habeas corpus applies to everyone in this country and is foundational. They have a right to make a case, whether it is asylum or to challenge the allegations made against them. When it comes to illegal immigrants there is an entire body laws and court rulings which define the process and what they are legally entitled to.

And please note, because I know some one is going to jump in and claim I am supporting illegal immigration, I’m not. I am (strongly, vociferously) supporting the process by which we make these determinations and rulings. Non-citizens are the low hanging fruit. Once you remove what rights they have….who is next?

This is what seperates us from authoritarian regimes and their capricious applications of the laws.



I don’t agree, it allows for very arbritary and potentially unlawful decisions and potential deportation to a dangerous situation with no recourse to appeal or habeas corpus.



Why?

They pay heavily for a visa and for many, their visas are been yanked for political reasons alone. And this is America!!!

Because a lot of illegal aliens are people who overstayed legal visas. Having the fare home on deposit would take another burden off of the US taxpayer once they are caught and deported. I'm in favor of something similar for agricultural and tech workers. Every employer would have to pay a bond to be held in escrow and only released AFTER the worker has left the country with verification from an immigration official. Make the employer put some skin in the game and increase the difficulty of replacing American workers with imported foreigners. With the bond system, most employers would go to bond agencies which would then use private contractors to capture bond jumpers again saving the taxpayer a lot of money.

 

[Coyote]

Coyote’s antisemitism aside, she is a liar and puts all sorts of words in my mouth,

What she is doing, among other things, is moving the bar as to under what circumstances we can revoke visas from HAMAS propagandists who are riling up more violence against Jews. (She’s very tolerant of violence against Jews.)

Hello Lisa, let’s clear a few things up.

There is no. Moving. The bar. On my side.

I am maintaining the same position consistently and it is one that has been used historically.

You want to revoke visas, jail, deport people whose position on a war in another country you disagree with. That is it. Most of these people whose visas are being yanked do not support Hamas and are not calling for violence. That is the government is having a hell of a time coming up with reasons for the revocations when pressed in court.

Your side has consistently and somewhat successfully conflated over and over, support for Palestinian rights and an end to the war with supporting terrorists and terrorism. It is successful and it is also dishonest.

Now she’s claiming they have to commit a “crime.” No, they do not. Being a rabble-rouser from a foreign country, going to campuses where antisemitism is off the charts and spreading anti-Israel LIES, does not mean you are entitled to stay here.

What constitutes a “rabble rouser” Lisa?

Co-authoring an op-ed in the student newspaper criticizing the Universities response to the Gaza war?

Calling for an end to the war in Gaza and a recognition of the human toll and suffering it has caused?

Supporting dialogue over militancy?

Calling for peace?

What you call “lies” are other people’s “truths”.

You are saying repeatedly, that this country should tolerate no criticism of Israel and it will be met with arrest and disappearance.

This is a very dangerous place to be Lisa.

And as far as the two-state solution, Coyote likes to pretend that all, or even most, Palestinians are innocent and decent people. They have been offered land-for-peace before but they rejected it because it required they recognize Israel’s right to exist. And they do not. They want Israel destroyed and all her Jews dead.

Are you talking about Olmert’s proposal?

So you are judging millions of people as a group, not individuals. If that was done to Jews it would be labeled antisemitism and it is.

 

[Coyote]

Because a lot of illegal aliens are people who overstayed legal visas. Having the fare home on deposit would take another burden off of the US taxpayer once they are caught and deported.

I’m not sure how that would work out, it seems like it would make the situation more complicated then it needs to be.

I'm in favor of something similar for agricultural and tech workers. Every employer would have to pay a bond to be held in escrow and only released AFTER the worker has left the country with verification from an immigration official. Make the employer put some skin in the game and increase the difficulty of replacing American workers with imported foreigners. With the bond system, most employers would go to bond agencies which would then use private contractors to capture bond jumpers again saving the taxpayer a lot of money.

It is an interesting idea but why penalize companies for hiring, legally, foreign workers? They are being hired because they bring something to the job that American workers have not.

 

[Coyote]

The only reason Hamas and Hezbollah aren’t committing genocide is they lack the means. They openly advocate genocide of the Jews and commit retail murder as often a possible.

They are terrorist organizations in a complicated almost 80 yr old unresolved conflict.

(QUOTE from AZrailwhale)
They aren’t committing terrorism because their aims aren’t political, they are committing murder, in the case of 10/7, mass murder and torture.
(END QUOTE)

I’m not I understand you. Terrorism does not have to be “political” to be terrorism, for one, and for another there most certainly are political aspects to their agenda.

 

[Coyote]

The two state solution would be ideal. Unfortunately neither Gaza or the West Bank are willing to accept it. It was been offered before and refused before. Hamas and Hezbollah are only willing to accept a one state solution that is Juden frei to use the old German phrase.

I’m not so sure they wouldn’t accept it, the harder thing would be Israel accepting because of their security issues. Egypt offered a good framework for a post-war plan.

 

[AZrailwhale]

I’m not so sure they wouldn’t accept it, the harder thing would be Israel accepting because of their security issues. Egypt offered a good framework for a post-war plan.

The key issue is that the Gazans will have to recognize the right of Israel to exist. That is what has killed every two-state solution in the past. The Muslims want Israel destroyed and all the Jews gone or dead. They will accept nothing less.

 

[Lisa558]

The key issue is that the Gazans will have to recognize the right of Israel to exist. That is what has killed every two-state solution in the past. The Muslims want Israel destroyed and all the Jews gone or dead. They will accept nothing less.

And why would anyone think that THIS time they will recognize Israel’s right to exist? They never have before. And their beliefs about Israel and Jews have not changed.

They’ve been left in GAZA for 15 years, without a Jew in sight, to live in peace and prove that they wish Israel no harm. And what did they do with all the foreign aid given then, and the supplies provided to them by Israel?

Did they stop teaching their children to want to kill Jews? Did they stop launching rockets and malatov cocktails over the line indiscriminately in the hopes they’d kill themselves some Jews? Did they instead use the money given them to develop a normal society? No, no, and no.

Instead, they kept the Islamic terrorists as their leader and cheered when they learned of the Oct 7th massacre of Jews.

 

[Lisa558]

Hello Lisa, let’s clear a few things up.

There is no. Moving. The bar. On my side.

I am maintaining the same position consistently and it is one that has been used historically.

You want to revoke visas, jail, deport people whose position on a war in another country you disagree with. That is it. Most of these people whose visas are being yanked do not support Hamas and are not calling for violence. That is the government is having a hell of a time coming up with reasons for the revocations when pressed in court.

Your side has consistently and somewhat successfully conflated over and over, support for Palestinian rights and an end to the war with supporting terrorists and terrorism. It is successful and it is also dishonest.


What constitutes a “rabble rouser” Lisa?

Co-authoring an op-ed in the student newspaper criticizing the Universities response to the Gaza war?

Calling for an end to the war in Gaza and a recognition of the human toll and suffering it has caused?

Supporting dialogue over militancy?

Calling for peace?

What you call “lies” are other people’s “truths”.

You are saying repeatedly, that this country should tolerate no criticism of Israel and it will be met with arrest and disappearance.

This is a very dangerous place to be Lisa.



Are you talking about Olmert’s proposal?

So you are judging millions of people as a group, not individuals. If that was done to Jews it would be labeled antisemitism and it is.

Way too much of your scolding and lies about me to unpack here, but I do not want to deport Jew-hating foreigners people who disagree with me. I want to deport antisemites, here on a visa, who are spreading HAMAS propaganda on college campuses where Jewish kids are ALREADY being assaulted and having their rights taken.

You are more interested in keeping a HAMAS-supporting foreigner here than you are in the safety of innocent American Jews.

How you can argue to keep these Jew-hating scumbags here after their rhetoric has reached such a fevered pitch that some loon just murdered two innocent young people exiting the Jewish Museum speaks to how extreme your bigotry and bias is.

We are under NO obligation to keep foreign Muslims in this country when they are inciting antisemitic violence via their lies about Israel.

You’re too far gone to engage with, so leave me alone. You’re harassing and trolling me. Do not continue.

 

[Lisa558]

---she insisted that jews are supposed to lie down and die if muslims want to kill them
in accordance with Shariah law. Defense by jews is defined, in shariah law, as criminal
aggression against ISLAM for GOOD REASON----jews do have the option of either
converting to islam or accepting DHIMMIA status. That option is called "FREEDOM"
I learned about the laudible theology from m,uslim informants and about the practical
applications from jews who survived the system you seem to advocate. You are far from alone

She also falsely labeled Israel’s action “genocide.” We are under no obligation to keep foreign students here who are repeating HAMAS talking points and riling up so much antisemitism here in America that American Jews are not safe on campus, or going to a Jewish event.

Coyote is more concerned with the “right” of a foreign Muslim to incite more hatred of Jews than she is of the Jews (one was Christian, but the killer didn’t know that) who were murdered in cold blood.

My friend’s grandmother is a Holocaust survivor and she has said that there are some very chilling parallels between the tolerance - no, the promotion - of antisemitism being pushed by the Left and the years leading up to Nazi concentration camps.

 

[Coyote]

Way too much of your scolding and lies about me to unpack here, but I do not want to deport Jew-hating foreigners people who disagree with me.

Really? Pardon my cynicism.

I want to deport antisemites, here on a visa, who are spreading HAMAS propaganda on college campuses where Jewish kids are ALREADY being assaulted and having their rights taken.

And how do you define that? For example, what Hamas propaganda has the subject of this thread spread? Where has he called for any violence against Jews?

Can you provide some actual quotes?

You are more interested in keeping a HAMAS-supporting foreigner here than you are in the safety of innocent American Jews.

So. Where has he indicated that he supports Hamas?

Where has he indicated that he is a threat to the safety of American Jews?

Or, is this just you conflating opposition to Israel’s war in Gaza with support for Hamas?

Quotes please.

How you can argue to keep these Jew-hating scumbags here after their rhetoric has reached such a fevered pitch that some loon just murdered two innocent young people exiting the Jewish Museum speaks to how extreme your bigotry and bias is.

People are individuals, you are judging every one by the acts of some and claiming they are all antisemites even when there is no evidence.

This war has created a huge surge in both antisemitism and Islamophobia.

Since the war began, we have seen:
The fatal stabbing of a 6 yr old Palestinian American child.
The shooting of a Palestinian American college student in Vermont.
An arson attack on Jewish Governor Shapiro’s hone.
And now the murder of two young Jewish people engaged to get married.

In each case, some distorted person blamed innocent people for actions taken by others, on the other side of the world, solely because they shared the same ethnic identity.

Isn’t that what you are doing without the violence?

We are under NO obligation to keep foreign Muslims in this country when they are inciting antisemitic violence via their lies about Israel.

You keep claiming they are inciting violence yet when I list specific people you can’t seem to come up with anything.

You’re too far gone to engage with, so leave me alone. You’re harassing and trolling me. Do not continue.

Just a note here:

You began this discussion with a lengthy post about me that wasn’t even on topic.

Trolling much?

 

[Robert W]

And why would anyone think that THIS time they will recognize Israel’s right to exist? They never have before. And their beliefs about Israel and Jews have not changed.

They’ve been left in GAZA for 15 years, without a Jew in sight, to live in peace and prove that they wish Israel no harm. And what did they do with all the foreign aid given then, and the supplies provided to them by Israel?

Did they stop teaching their children to want to kill Jews? Did they stop launching rockets and malatov cocktails over the line indiscriminately in the hopes they’d kill themselves some Jews? Did they instead use the money given them to develop a normal society? No, no, and no.

Instead, they kept the Islamic terrorists as their leader and cheered when they learned of the Oct 7th massacre of Jews.

Israel's prime problem is they are dealing with cockroaches. Frankly they must wipe out the cockroaches.

 

[Robert W]

It’s not free speech for a Muslim antisemite from a foreign country to spread Islamic terrorist propaganda and incite even more Jew-hate when it is the policy of the Trump Administration to ratchet down the antisemitism.

Ironic that you can’t see bigotry and racism when it is launched against Jews.

Even more ironic is that you see efforts to reduce antisemitism as bigotry.

And get this, Coyote talked against the Judges ruling.

 

[Coyote]

Israel's prime problem is they are dealing with cockroaches. Frankly they must wipe out the cockroaches.

How genocidal of you. Start with dehumanizing an entire population. Makes it easier that way.

 

[Lisa558]

And get this, Coyote talked against the Judges ruling.

No surprise there.

 

[Robert W]

How genocidal of you. Start with dehumanizing an entire population. Makes it easier that way.

It is a last resort. HAMAS wants peace as much as Democrats want Trump.